Stage Races and A4's

morana

Just wanted to let the CI racers know that you must be above A4 to do stage races next year. I know last year some A4's were accepted for the Kanturk and some for the Donegal (but were later told they couldnt ride) but I am sure the Road Commission will direct all race organisers that the A4's cant race in stage races.......

just do an extra 20 mins a week and come and play with the the A3's

mo_bhicycle

Will there be A4 only stage races this year, like Mullingar and Limerick?

morana

dunno! I think there is a calendar floating about
https://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/cyclingireland.net/embed?src=road@cyclingireland.net&ctz=Europe/Dublin&gsessionid=OK

billy.fish

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

Will there be A4 only stage races this year, like Mullingar and Limerick?

As far as i remember A4 riders are not allowed to race stage races.

Anyway A4, racing. Oxymoran innit

Diarmuid

billy.fish wrote: »

As far as i remember A4 riders are not allowed to race stage races.)

You're memory isn't great

High Nellie

A4s cannot ride stage races this year. Move up if you want to do Gorey, Kanturk, etc.

billy.fish

Rules from CI:

A4:
Consisting of current A4 riders and new members to competitive racing. Former
International Riders are not eligible for A4. Organizers are encouraged to promote A4
only races. Such races will not be in excess of 80km. A4s may race with other
categories in a handicap situation only subject to the 80km distance restriction. A4s
will not be allowed to compete in ANY stage race with any of the other categories.
A4s who scored points in 2010 will carry forward 100% of the points scored into
2011.The maximum number of prizes to be presented will not exceed the first 6 places.

Sounds like fun, an A4 only stage race then. Cause everyone is going to rush out to run that...

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

Sounds like fun, an A4 only stage race then. Cause everyone is going to rush out to run that...

Liam Collins ran an excellent A4 3-day last year. It's not on the calendar this year.

The question remains as to whether A4-only stage races are permitted by C.I.

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

Liam Collins ran an excellent A4 3-day last year. It's not on the calendar this year.

The question remains as to whether A4-only stage races are permitted by C.I.

By the rules yes. Just takes someone to run on.

boege

Lumen wrote: »

Liam Collins ran an excellent A4 3-day last year. It's not on the calendar this year.

The question remains as to whether A4-only stage races are permitted by C.I.

Spoke to Liam last week and I dont think he is running the event this year. He mentioned cost issues.

High Nellie

boege wrote: »

Spoke to Liam last week and I dont think he is running the event this year. He mentioned cost issues.

That's a pity. Liam always thinks outside the box and runs innovative events.

Staro

IMO this is a real shame as I rode the Tain Team Tour and it was a great introduction to stage racing and one of the highlights of last year.

rubs

Can an A4 not just re-register as A3 for the event like last year...by way of One Day Licence??

High Nellie

rubs wrote: »

Can an A4 not just re-register as A3 for the event like last year...by way of One Day Licence??

I think the idea is that if you can ride a Cat 2/3 stage race then you shouldn't be with Cat 4 for other events?? In other words, you shouldn't have it each way.

morana

Technically yes I suppose but the board wouldnt look too kindly on that and probably introduce some sort of rule to cope with it. I am sure the eagle eyed comms would rumble you!

Caroline_ie

In regards to women. Do they also need to be A3 to participate? I am not thinking of Gorey don't worry

RobFowl

High Nellie wrote: »

I think the idea is that if you can ride a Cat 2/3 stage race then you shouldn't be with Cat 4 for other events?? In other words, you shouldn't have it each way.

No as you would have to take out a one day licence for each stage and AFAIK the Comm's won't let you do this.
You can upgrade yourself though.

And @ Caroline the A4 rules on stage races apply to women as well.
Would be interesting to see how many A4's rode the Ras na Mban last year/

Caroline_ie

I though Kanturk 3 day had a women/Junior categorie ...

RobFowl

Caroline_ie wrote: »

I though Kanturk 3 day had a women/Junior categorie ...

They do but they have to have A1/2 or A3 licences.

Lumen

morana,

With respect, it would be nice if C.I. would take the trouble to explain these sorts of decisions, rather than just announcing them.

It was the same with the proposed changes to A4 announced at the end of last year. No explanation, no obvious consultation, no transparency.

I can think of some good reasons for this change, like limiting numbers for safety reasons, or reducing the sandbagging in A4, but if you don't tell us what they are how are we supposed to know?

Caroline_ie

I only know a handful of women who race above A4, that really isnt fair.

crashoveroid

Lumen wrote: »

Liam Collins ran an excellent A4 3-day last year. It's not on the calendar this year.

The question remains as to whether A4-only stage races are permitted by C.I.

It was a points race not a stage race so they could allow A4's as each day was its own race.

RobFowl

Caroline_ie wrote: »

I only know a handful of women who race above A4, that really isnt fair.

Will email you later

Diarmuid

In fairness to CI, wrt the A4 change, it was a proposed change, which based on feedback was then dropped.
However many existing A4 riders will upgrade to A3 to race the stage races. The size of the (already large) A3 bunches will get bigger and more dangerous. I don't see the same number of A3 riders upgrading to A2s/downgrading to A4 to keep some balance. I could be wrong.

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

In fairness to CI, wrt the A4 change, it was a proposed change, which based on feedback was then dropped.

A proposed change with no explanation, as I recall.

michael196

Lumen wrote: »

A proposed change with no explanation, as I recall.

seems extrordinary that on entering racing you can opt to be A3 ; surely u start at the lowest and qualify upwards ?

or have i got the wrong end of he stick ?

mo_bhicycle

michael196 wrote: »

seems extrordinary that on entering racing you can opt to be A3 ; surely u start at the lowest and qualify upwards ?

or have i got the wrong end of he stick ?

Why not?
If you feel you're strong and experienced enough to go for it then I think you should be able to. If you're wrong you'll get dropped fairly quickly and have a pretty miserable time ... it's not a decision most people will take lightly.
Maybe there could be a rule that somebody that is totally new to the sport has to do a season in A4 in order to gain the necessary experience. But experience aside I don't see the issue with self selecting the category.

michael196

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

Why not?
If you feel you're strong and experienced enough to go for it then I think you should be able to. If you're wrong you'll get dropped fairly quickly and have a pretty miserable time ... it's not a decision most people will take lightly.
Maybe there could be a rule that somebody that is totally new to the sport has to do a season in A4 in order to gain the necessary experience. But experience aside I don't see the issue with self selecting the category.

so the conservative aproach is a4 then move upwards. fair enough make the wrong decision and you will have a miserable time, its ur decision, but the pitfall is large if you get it wrong...

just seems to guide set people up for failure ? I know of guys opting a3 back to a4. but what do I know !!

mo_bhicycle

michael196 wrote: »

I know of guys opting a3 back to a4. but what do I know !!

And I know guys doing the reverse ... horses for courses ... or cyclists for categories.
If you have some experience and know your ability then there isn't an issue.

100Suns

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

And I know guys doing the reverse ... horses for courses ... or cyclists for categories.
If you have some experience and know your ability then there isn't an issue.

If you are with a club, the club has to sign off on your licence application. It's unlikely an official at a club would sign off on a rider starting above A4 if they weren't confident that they had the ability, experience and bike handling skills.

morana

Lumen wrote: »

morana,

With respect, it would be nice if C.I. would take the trouble to explain these sorts of decisions, rather than just announcing them.

It was the same with the proposed changes to A4 announced at the end of last year. No explanation, no obvious consultation, no transparency.

I can think of some good reasons for this change, like limiting numbers for safety reasons, or reducing the sandbagging in A4, but if you don't tell us what they are how are we supposed to know?

Sorry I am late responding. Within CI there are various commissions which essentially control the sport. The road comission are responsible for the road racing. The category changes were intrioduced because you had Vets and Juniors taking prizes week in week out. So Ability grading was introduced, hence the 'A'. Okay so you probably know all of that. The Road commission then decided to remove the A4 category and introduce a sports (iirc) cat. However the decision was taken to consult with the membership and you all said no its was fine as it was and we agreed. I personally think this is a great cat!

The thinking behind the A4's was they were new riders who might not want to train as much as others etc. etc. so when the cat was introduced the decision was that they couldnt ride stage races. If an A4 wants to ride the Gorey then we feel that they should be in the A3 cat. You might disagree.
Some stage race organisers allowed them in despite the rule being in place. Donegal afaik returned entries when we became aware that they were accepting A4's and alerted them to the fact.

I will accept that sometimes we dont communicate enough and its one of the reasons why I came on here to hopefully try explain stuff to some of the members.

I checked with Orla H at our Board meeting last night and she told me that A4 ladies can do the womens only stage races but must be on a full comp licence. The thinking behind it is that there are much fewer women racing and hopefully it might develop that side of the sport more......

Caroline_ie

I agree that fewer women race, or cycle, but there is only 1 women multi day race in Ireland: the Ras na mBan, which is an international race where you compete along side pro teams, over 5 days. Some of my cycling friends ( some boardsies too ) did compete in it, but ( sorry girls) don't stand a chance against these girls from The Nertherlands etc.

Allowing a women categories to the other 3 day races, where domestic amateur female riders could compete in against each other, would make the sport, or the competitive aspect of it ,more approachable to us.

The reason why there are only a couple of ladies taking part in the Gorey for example is I am sure because women are more or less excluded or end up racing against men if they enter.

my 2c.

morana

Thats a fair point Caroline but if there was adomestic only race howmany womenwould turn up for it? So I think its a case ofmore boot inn type leagus, Bray lge, Orwell crit series, Ulster ladies Lge etc to try get more ladies involved and then I am sure when there is a big enough bunch there will be more/another domestic stage race for women.

Having said that I applaud the efforts of the womens commission, they are the commission who seem to be most active regarding coaching and recruitment and they are doing great work in general pushing for equality at all levels.

Any suggestions I will welcome and try progress them for the women and male A4 riders.

niceonetom

morana wrote: »

Thats a fair point Caroline but if there was adomestic only race howmany womenwould turn up for it? So I think its a case ofmore boot inn type leagus, Bray lge, Orwell crit series, Ulster ladies Lge etc to try get more ladies involved and then I am sure when there is a big enough bunch there will be more/another domestic stage race for women.

I think the point is that for most one day races the women race alongside the A4s, vets, and Juniors. Forcing the ladies to get an A3 licence so they could race, say, the Kanturk (where'd they really be racing against other ladies) would mean that they'd have to race A3 at the one days for the rest of the year. That would, in a lot of cases, make them the only woman in the field at these one days.

This licensing issue doesn't really have anything to with the various leagues which, as far as I know, organise their handicapping on the basis of performance in early races or a TT rather than by which licence racers hold.

morana

I was mentioning the various leagues as a testament to the good work that the WC have done thus far. Sorry I confused it with the Licencing issue...

Caroline_ie

Could women not just get a Ladies licence and race under ladies, avoiding a divide to create a bigger turn out to open races. You could get the same turn out as the national leagues races at every open races.

morana

Caroline_ie wrote: »

Could women not just get a Ladies licence and race under ladies, avoiding a divide to create a bigger turn out to open races. You could get the same turn out as the national leagues races at every open races.

I think that would be a good question for the Road Commission and Womens Commission.Would you like to forward it on to them?

Flankerb

There will probably be an a4 stage race again this year in Mullingar. I will let the powers that be know that there is interest in an a4 stage race.

Caroline_ie

morana wrote: »

I think that would be a good question for the Road Commission and Womens Commission.Would you like to forward it on to them?

I think it's best coming from you than me directly. I now the women commission people and I find them intimidating ( because they're better than me and I think it's better coming from an irish person) :pac: