Engine issue post service + timing belt - tough luck?

Mr. Larson

Hi all - just had my timing belt replaced and an annual service done last Friday by a main dealer, for which I shelled out the guts of €800. It's a Volvo and it was left into a main Opel/Fiat dealer who are local to me and have serviced the car a few times for me.

Took the car home (3 miles or so) and started it back up on Sunday morning and noticed the engine warning light on so didn't really go anywhere with it. Called the garage this morning and they said they would take a look. Noticed the car was a bit jumpy around 2k revs on the way out so told them the story and they took a look.

After an hour or so the head honcho came out and said they haven't got to the bottom yet. They were going to get a guy to look at it tomorrow who has the right software to read the faults on the car because they don't trust the reading they are getting.

He proceeded to go on and on about 'these Volvo's and Saabs' and how they are a nightmare and have given them so much trouble, you fix one thing and another breaks and you end up going round and round but he was saying it in a nice way if you know what I mean. The suspected issue is with the airflow sensor.

Before I left (he told me to drive to work and if it's still there tomorrow call in again) he mentioned something that worried me a bit. He said something like could just be the case that it went the day after the service - could have been grand when it left but went the next day or something.

So my question eventually (thanks for sticking with me ) is do the garage have any responsibility for getting this resolved or is it just tough luck?

It is of course conceivable that this was just a co-incidence but it's also a possibility that they have introduced some issue. I've had the car for about 4 years with no trouble - engine light has never come on before and now all of a sudden, after the timing belt and service it's got the light on and is spluttering a fair bit, losing power and surging in general...

What are my rights here (if any).

MagicMarker

You need to know what the fault is before you can point blame at anyone tbh.

Also, €800 for a service and new timing belt? :eek: That's crazy money.

Mr. Larson

MagicMarker wrote: »

You need to know what the fault is before you can point blame at anyone tbh.

True.

MagicMarker wrote: »

Also, €800 for a service and new timing belt? :eek: That's crazy money.

The service was €220 - timing belt/water pump and all labour etc. was €550. It's a 2.0l turbo 5cyl. Not sure if that's still crazy money based on that?

voxpop

You need to get the car scanned with a diagnostic scanner to find out what the error is and take it from there. Might be worth having a quick look under the bonnet and make sure all the sensors are connected -they may have disconnected a number of sensors when doing your service/T-belt and forgot to reconnect one.

MagicMarker

MagicMarker wrote: »

Also, €800 for a service and new timing belt? :eek: That's crazy money.

In fairness you don't know what model it is so commenting on the price is a tad harsh. Many non 4 cylinder cars are complicated enough to do the timing belt or belts on and so are expensive. The timing belt kit for my yoke is almost £300 in parts alone I think.

keithclancy

Sounds like the timing might be off !!!

They should just check it with a machine, they probably just replaced it by locking the cams in place and replacing the tensioners and belts. This is usally fine but it can lead to the timing being off.

DeniseandGeoff

I had a similar problem a few years ago. It was a turbo diesel Vauxhall Cavalier, it was running perfect but we never knew when the belt was last changed, so as a precaution booked it into a local garage.

When we picked it up, it felt flat like it had lost a load of power, we called the garage, who said drop it back in, his new mechanic who had done the job, had got the timing belt approx 1 tooth out, the timing was reset and the car was as good as new, so from what you say it does sound like they have messed the timing up. We was not charged for any extra work.
Hope you get it sorted.

Mr. Larson

Thanks all - the way I'll proceed is let them diagnose/pinpoint the issue and then decide based on what the issue is. Should be clear cut I guess - if it's an issue related to what they touched then they are (and most probably will) responsible for fixing it. If it's just something unrelated then I take the hit.

I've stopped going to a main Volvo Dealer in the past few years as the car has almost 100k on the clock now and I can't justify the extra cost - but I guess issues like this are always likely to occur when it's not being done directly by Volvo.

Jabberwocky

Jabberwocky wrote: »

I've stopped going to a main Volvo Dealer in the past few years as the car has almost 100k on the clock now and I can't justify the extra cost.

Opel / Fiat main dealer are quite likely to be just as expensive. For value got to a decent non main dealer mechanic. Also the lads in the Opel / Fiat garage may well rarely work on a car such as yours. Most independent garages see a bit of everything.

As other folks have mentioned, it does seem quite likely they have timed it incorrectly.

Keith186

keithclancy wrote: »

Sounds like the timing might be off !!!

They should just check it with a machine, they probably just replaced it by locking the cams in place and replacing the tensioners and belts. This is usally fine but it can lead to the timing being off.

I had the same symptoms after getting the timing belt done and brought it back to get it altered and it was grand.

It was too loose or tight was the problem. Sounds the exact same.

SouperComputer

Get the codes scanned. Most common issue is where people that dont work on these cars dont set the VVT (Variable Valve Timing) unit(s)correctly. The result being that all the timing marks line up fine, but the timing is still incorrect. The cam(s) are free to rotate about two teeth inside the unit without it being visible. Its not hard to setup, just the mechanic needs to know

1. That it needs to be set in the first place! (lining up just the marks on the cam and crank like a "normal" car won't do)
and
2. They need how to do it

Timing jobs on typical volvos involve locking the cams at the back of the engine, not the front as well as locking the crank through a hole behind the starter.

It is of course conceivable that this was just a co-incidence but it's also a possibility that they have introduced some issue. I've had the car for about 4 years with no trouble - engine light has never come on before and now all of a sudden, after the timing belt and service it's got the light on and is spluttering a fair bit, losing power and surging in general......

....After an hour or so the head honcho came out and said they haven't got to the bottom yet. They were going to get a guy to look at it tomorrow who has the right software to read the faults on the car because they don't trust the reading they are getting.

BINGO! Looks like a classic case of the timing being set wrong to me. Its probably throwning a code for timing or the VVT solenoid (P0014 or a P0015) but then when they go to check the timing marks on the cams and crank they all line up. Therefore they dont understand. For cripes sake dont let them give you any crap about dodgy sensors unless you see the codes for youself which might be were they go next. If this (timing being wrong) turn out to be right, consider another place for your Volvo next time. Also, if it CEL is on, the codes can be read with any generic OBD II reader, so they are spinning you a line there.

Get the specific code(s) from the car, write them down, post back. A MAF could exibit similar behavior so that fair, but get the codes

Mr. Larson

Thanks for all your replies - really helpful. They had a guy come and look at it this morning and take the readings.

The error is still pointing to the boost sensor but he can't find anything disconnected or any oil spillage issues so he is none the wiser. He said an issue with the sensor would explain the symptoms I'm experiencing when I'm driving. It seems to be the transition between the turbo kicking in where it chugs a bit. Once I get up over 3/4k revs there is no issue. Just at the lower end of the revs (it's a low pressure turbo car). Seems plausible to me but I'm a bit clueless about this sort of thing unfortunately.

He is going to call the dealer and tell him the sensor may need replacement. Hopefully they won't charge me anything extra for all of this. Regarding the timing issue many people mentioned, wouldn't I notice something on idle also if that was out? I'm pretty sure this garage has regularly worked on Volvo's before and they had one of the same model of my car also for a long period of time - so hopefully they haven't botched that particular job (belt).

SouperComputer

Well thats good news that there's no timing code. Did you find out the exact code #? If they forgot a vac pipe and the car overboosted it could drop to limp home mode which sometimes can cause rough running.

If the timing was off it might still idle OK, but starting might be a bit of a hassle.

Mr. Larson

Jabberwocky wrote: »

He is going to call the dealer and tell him the sensor may need replacement. Hopefully they won't charge me anything extra for all of this. Regarding the timing issue many people mentioned, wouldn't I notice something on idle also if that was out? I'm pretty sure this garage has regularly worked on Volvo's before and they had one of the same model of my car also for a long period of time - so hopefully they haven't botched that particular job (belt).

So 10 days later - the issue got resolved however the garage are looking to charge me €214!

It took them 10 days to get the part from Volvo - I didn't grumble because I assumed they were going to do this free of charge... remember, this happened directly after a service/timing belt job for which I forked out €770.

I guess they are charging me on the grounds that the issue with the boost sensor is seperate to the service/belt job and purely coincidental. They claim they weren't anywhere near it when doing the 1st 2 jobs.

- €84.84 for the part (fair enough I guess!)
- €70 for the diagnosis (engineering work, they got a 3rd party to come to my car at work to double check the reading as they didn't trust their initial readings with their equipment)
- €34 for the 15 minutes it took to fit the new one.

I'm a bit sick over this - I think they could have waived the labour or the diagnosis at the very least.

What do you guys think? Tough titty or are they being extremely mean about this?

taintabird

If the car was running OK pre service and belt it may well be as simple as a sensor disconnected during the job wasn't re connected before the system was powered up in which case its just a matter of clearing the error code, but without plugging it in to get the code its imposable to say. My money would be on the maf sensor but like I said without the fault codes you cant say. There is quite a bit of dismantleing to gain access to the timing belt also the timing has to be spot on with the 5 cylinders or the will run like a pig there not as forgiving as 4 cylinders a degree one way or another can make a huge difference.

si_guru

Jabberwocky wrote: »

So 10 days later - the issue got resolved however the garage are looking to charge me €214!

It took them 10 days to get the part from Volvo - I didn't grumble because I assumed they were going to do this free of charge... remember, this happened directly after a service/timing belt job for which I forked out €770.

I guess they are charging me on the grounds that the issue with the boost sensor is seperate to the service/belt job and purely coincidental. They claim they weren't anywhere near it when doing the 1st 2 jobs.

- €84.84 for the part (fair enough I guess!)
- €70 for the diagnosis (engineering work, they got a 3rd party to come to my car at work to double check the reading as they didn't trust their initial readings with their equipment)
- €34 for the 15 minutes it took to fit the new one.

I'm a bit sick over this - I think they could have waived the labour or the diagnosis at the very least.

What do you guys think? Tough titty or are they being extremely mean about this?

I would expect them to waive the diagnosis - it is not your fault they needed a 3rd party to come in.

Sugget you will go elsewhere in future, see it they soften.

mickdw

Well we dont really know what the full story is here so I guess you have to pay them however, push for a major discount.

Mr. Larson

taintabird wrote: »

If the car was running OK pre service and belt it may well be as simple as a sensor disconnected during the job wasn't re connected before the system was powered up in which case its just a matter of clearing the error code, but without plugging it in to get the code its imposable to say. My money would be on the maf sensor but like I said without the fault codes you cant say. There is quite a bit of dismantleing to gain access to the timing belt also the timing has to be spot on with the 5 cylinders or the will run like a pig there not as forgiving as 4 cylinders a degree one way or another can make a huge difference.

The car was running perfectly beforehand.

I can rule out any issue with the timing. The error code pointed to the boost pressure sensor and now that it's replaced it's all running perfectly. I was shown the offending part and there was some oil in there but the garage state that it was far away from any part they touched and there was no oil spillages visible after an examination. I guess they are claiming it's wear and tear and coincidental.

I'm ok to pay for the replacement part but I feel they are taking the wee a bit with over €100 on fitting labour (15 mins) and diagnosis.

Mr. Larson

si_guru wrote: »

I would expect them to waive the diagnosis - it is not your fault they needed a 3rd party to come in.

Yes I agree - that part cost €70 - I'm going to push back on that. I'm happy to pay for the part but having me pay for that is a bridge too far I think. Also worth noting they never quoted me any price or that I was to be charged for any of it. If they had I would have potentially gone elsewhere.

mickdw wrote: »

Well we dont really know what the full story is here so I guess you have to pay them however, push for a major discount.

I think you have the full story tbh.