Planning Issues

YouWantWhat

I was wonddering if anyone out there could give me a definitive answer on issues relating to planning in connection with the construction of a new house, the situation is as follows :

My client had a run down house on a row of detached house, the adjoining neighbour protested to the council and eventually got a dereliction order on it. I applied for and obtained planning permission to demolish the existing house and construct a new house. We started on site near the end of 09 and are nearing completion now. In the course of construction we made a few minor amendments to the elevations, namely :
1. we have a large opening on the front of the house, 3.0m wide, divided into 3, with a sliding door in the middle, we changed this to a fixed window (still divided into 3) with a low cill.
2. we have 2 windows on the gable (facing the neighbour), each fitted with obscure glass, we moved the first floor window 450mm further back.
3. we put in an additional rooflight at the rear of the house.
4. At the rear of the house we had a large window to one of the bedrooms, we changed this to a small window, and a single door to the garden.
5. We moved the back door to the side of the house, owing to problems with levels.
The neighbour in question has had disputes with my clients parents in the past, and he has reported every single thing that we are doing on the site, including all of the above to the town council. The council issued us with a warning letter, which I addressed, and the council were satisfied with my reply, saying that there was no material alteration to the building. He has also reported us to H&S (3 times), has lobbied local councillors and TD's, who have written to the town council on his behalf, all to no effect. The neighbour however is not happy with the lack of action from the council and has taken things further, employing a solicitor and engineer.

My question is : Does anyone know what scope there is within the planning act for deviations, however minor, from the approved drawings. For example, I can build a 40sq.m extension at the rear of a house without planning permission, but can I be in breach of planning for changing a window to a door at the rear of house.

I forgot to mention, of the changes we made, not a single one has aa impact on the neighbour.

All the best

Poor Uncle Tom

YouWantWhat wrote: »

My question is : Does anyone know what scope there is within the planning act for deviations, however minor, from the approved drawings. For example, I can build a 40sq.m extension at the rear of a house without planning permission, but can I be in breach of planning for changing a window to a door at the rear of house.

The list of exemptions as detailed in SI no. 600 of 2001 are the only alterations you can make to your house without planning approval but ALL of those exemptions are only applicable when the house is finished construction, not WHILE being constructed, (including the 40 sq.m you mention).

YouWantWhat wrote: »

I forgot to mention, of the changes we made, not a single one has aa impact on the neighbour.

This only has a bearing from the point of the LA considering the impact of any changes made.

Most LA's take a lenient view on minor changes, like moving a window say, 400mm on an elevation, or including roof windows to the side or rear. However, any changes to the front elevation are generally seen as material changes.

It is better to get the ok of the planners for any changes before going and doing them. If you can get a letter of easement from the LA for the changes then you should be ok, if not, you are probably looking at a retention application to regularise matters. After all these are changes to what you were granted planning permission for.

YouWantWhat

Thanks for the reply Poor Uncle Tom, unfortunately I'm none the wiser. The local Authority have turned a blind eye to all the alterations, I informed them of all the changes that we made when replying to their warning letter, but the neighbour is not happy with the local authority turning a blind eye and wants something done about it, thats why he has employed a solicitor and engineer.

I'm interested in your comment about exempted developement only being applicable after the building is complete, is there reference to this in the planning act? Surely the planners cannot make a call on illegal development during the construction stage (unless its completely obvious), after all you could be leaving openings in walls for construction access etc. in our case its 'work in progress' and no judgement should be made until the building is complete and occupied.

muffler

YouWantWhat wrote: »

1. we have a large opening on the front of the house, 3.0m wide, divided into 3, with a sliding door in the middle, we changed this to a fixed window (still divided into 3) with a low cill.
2. we have 2 windows on the gable (facing the neighbour), each fitted with obscure glass, we moved the first floor window 450mm further back.
3. we put in an additional rooflight at the rear of the house.
4. At the rear of the house we had a large window to one of the bedrooms, we changed this to a small window, and a single door to the garden.
5. We moved the back door to the side of the house, owing to problems with levels.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

The council issued us with a warning letter, which I addressed, and the council were satisfied with my reply, saying that there was no material alteration to the building.

The first thing I have to say is that you have a PA with very laxed attitude if they accepted those alterations as being de minimus.

Did this neighbour make an observation on the planning application?

YouWantWhat wrote: »

2. we have 2 windows on the gable (facing the neighbour)
3. we put in an additional rooflight at the rear of the house.
4. At the rear of the house we had a large window........ we changed this to a small window, and a single door to the garden.
5. We moved the back door to the side of the house

Good enough reason for anyone to get annoyed.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

My question is : Does anyone know what scope there is within the planning act for deviations, however minor, from the approved drawings. For example, I can build a 40sq.m extension at the rear of a house without planning permission, but can I be in breach of planning for changing a window to a door at the rear of house.

As pointed out by Poor Uncle Tom an exempted extension can only be built to a house - not a partially constructed one. There is no specific provision within the Planning Act which allows for permitting changes to approved plans. However a few of the PA's will look at and approve "minor" amendments. I haven't got the particular section at hand but reliance is made on the part of the Act that confers powers on the PA's to look for revised plans in certain instances.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

I forgot to mention, of the changes we made, not a single one has aa impact on the neighbour.

As mentioned above it is up to the PA and/or ABP to make this call.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

The neighbour however is not happy with the lack of action from the council and has taken things further, employing a solicitor and engineer.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

but the neighbour is not happy with the local authority turning a blind eye and wants something done about it, thats why he has employed a solicitor and engineer.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

Surely the planners cannot make a call on illegal development during the construction stage.......in our case its 'work in progress' and no judgement should be made until the building is complete and occupied.

Perhaps you would read our forum charter as Im a little concerned that this thread could descend into discussing the legalities of the situation or even looking for ways to circumvent the planning legislation neither of which we allow discussion on.

By all means fire up any and all questions and comments you may have so long as they dont breach the charter.

YouWantWhat

Hi Muffler

just to clarify a few things :

Firstly, I'm not looking for legal advice.

2. we have 2 windows on the gable (facing the neighbour) - we have planning permission for these - I just moved one 400mm further back.
3. we put in an additional rooflight at the rear of the house. - what concern is this of the neighbour, not overlooking him, we have one anyway?
4. At the rear of the house we had a large window........ we changed this to a small window, and a single door to the garden - this is on the opposite side of the house to the neighbour, and we already have a door closer to him, again no concern of his.
5. We moved the back door to the side of the house - this is on the opposite side of the house to the neighbour and faces a 3.0m high boundary wall, the neighbour cannot even see it, he obviously noticed it during construction.

I think the LA have shown common sense in their approach. Practically every building has minor alterations to it during construction, this is the nature of building and design, and as long as the style, appearence and size of the building has not been altered, and the alterations have no impact on the neighbours, then what is the problem.

On my first post I mentioned that the neighbour in question had a falling out with my clients parents in the past, and this is the source of his actions. We are like the victims of a crime here, watching the criminal get off scot free just because he has a good legal team!!!!

muffler

YouWantWhat wrote: »

Firstly, I'm not looking for legal advice.

2. we have 2 windows on the gable (facing the neighbour) - we have planning permission for these - I just moved one 400mm further back.
3. we put in an additional rooflight at the rear of the house. - what concern is this of the neighbour, not overlooking him, we have one anyway?
4. At the rear of the house we had a large window........ we changed this to a small window, and a single door to the garden - this is on the opposite side of the house to the neighbour, and we already have a door closer to him, again no concern of his.
5. We moved the back door to the side of the house - this is on the opposite side of the house to the neighbour and faces a 3.0m high boundary wall, the neighbour cannot even see it, he obviously noticed it during construction.

Thanks for clarifying those points.

I'll be blunt here and to the point. From reading the above together with your first post I think its a case of not seeing the woods for the trees. You seem to want to blame the neighbour for problems that have now arose as a result of your/your clients actions. Had you (using "you" for simplicity here) built in accordance with the approved plans then you wouldnt have the neighbour complaining and you wouldn't be posting here.

I dont know what experience you have of the planning process but let me tell you it's tough, complex and unfair at times. I dont like the fact that anyone no matter who they are or where they live can object to a planning application but I and everyone else have to accept it. Try to work with the system and not against it.

I take your point that a lot of houses are built with a few deviations from the approved plans. However I have come across similar situations to this in the past where there is an awkward neighbour "at large" and I always insist that the works are carried out strictly in accordance with the plans. Even If I am not supervising the works I still advise the clients at planning stage that they need to make sure that they have everything right in order to avoid the potential hassle.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

I think the LA have shown common sense in their approach. Practically every building has minor alterations to it during construction, this is the nature of building and design, and as long as the style, appearence and size of the building has not been altered, and the alterations have no impact on the neighbours, then what is the problem.

Just covered that above.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

On my first post I mentioned that the neighbour in question had a falling out with my clients parents in the past, and this is the source of his actions. We are like the victims of a crime here, watching the criminal get off scot free just because he has a good legal team!!!!

I have to say Im disappointed to read this comment. You cant compare the neighbour to a criminal. He has done nothing wrong whether you like it or not. That may sound harsh but that is the reality of the situation based on what you have told us in your posts here.

Btw, did the neighbour make a submission on the planning application?

sinnerboy

Designs sometimes develop as a build progresses and sometimes neighbors can be un-neighborly. Right pain when it happens on the same project but it looks like the planners are not part of your problem here.

Sounds like you will have to apply to retain modifications (the LA will charge for this based on the whole m2 area - nasty one that! )

Prediction - you will be granted retention , neighbour will comment and then object to ABP - who will uphold.

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

and then object to ABP - who will uphold.

sinnerboy

I think the neighbor will appeal but not succesfully

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

I think the neighbor will appeal but not succesfully

Ah right. Wasn't sure if you meant that they (ABP) would uphold the decision or the appeal

YouWantWhat

muffler wrote: »

I have to say Im disappointed to read this comment. You cant compare the neighbour to a criminal. He has done nothing wrong whether you like it or not. That may sound harsh but that is the reality of the situation based on what you have told us in your posts here.

Btw, did the neighbour make a submission on the planning application?

As far as I know the neighbour did make observations, he also appealed to An Bord Pleanala, but fortunately for us he missed the deadline dates.

With regard to the the criminal comment, what would you call someone who has harassed you for over a year, has his own section on the planning file filled with complaints against you, has persuaded the LA to serve a warning letter on you, call the H&S officer to site three times, has lobbied TD's and councillors to complain to the LA on his behalf (all of which has proved fruitless) and has now employed a solicitor and engineer to act on his behalf, which our solicitor reckons will cost my client approx. €10k to defend?

When we first started this job, the neighbour got the other neighbours together and invited me to a neighbours meeting, where he tried to lay down the law. Within a couple of weeks the other neighbours lost interest, and wondered what this guy was upto. I know for a fact that some of them have asked him to back off and let us get on with it.

Mellor

YouWantWhat wrote: »

I'm interested in your comment about exempted developement only being applicable after the building is complete, is there reference to this in the planning act?

The list of exemptions, apply to a dwelling house. It's not a hosue until its finished. Or else every (or rather most/0 approved house plan could enlarge by 40sq.m (which is not intended obviously.

YouWantWhat wrote: »

With regard to the the criminal comment, what would you call someone who has harassed you for over a year, has his own section on the planning file filled with complaints against you, has persuaded the LA to serve a warning letter on you, call the H&S officer to site three times, has lobbied TD's and councillors to complain to the LA on his behalf (all of which has proved fruitless) and has now employed a solicitor and engineer to act on his behalf, which our solicitor reckons will cost my client approx. €10k to defend?

Nothing he did was a crime. In fact, he was well within his rights. He was a pest, and I don't how any changes had a impact on him, but it's his right to object and he was simply letting the council know that there were some breaches of the permission.

Ironically, you client has (albeit in a minor way) broken the law by building outside the approved plans.
The council has siad its ok now, but you, as the professional in charge, should of let the council know before you made changes. In that cases the neighbour would of had nothing to go on. And would of avoided the hiring of a solicitor (I doubt you client would be happy with you if they were aware of this fact).
Regarding the cost of 10k to defend. I think your solicitor is chancing his arm. Defend what? He missed the ABP appeal. I don't see how you'll end up in court. As long as you are smart, you'll be able to get all the paper work in order for minimal fees this should prevent further action. Hopefully without a retention app, as that opens the objection/appeal route again (regarding only the changes mind)

Pkiernan

Mellor wrote: »

...
Regarding the cost of 10k to defend. I think your solicitor is chancing his arm. Defend what? He missed the ABP appeal. I don't see how you'll end up in court. ...

I agree 100%.

Keep all documentation from the LA with regard to changes they have de facto allowed. If your client faces legal issues, these will be invaluable.

Tell the neighbour to pursue the LA thru the Courts. He'll have a lot of fun with that.

YouWantWhat

Just to let you know the outcome of this case :

The neighbour served us with two court injunctions and a civil equity suit. The injunctions- one for non-compliance with planning permission and the other that we had caused damage to his property. The civil equity suit was basically suing us for compensation. These were served on us just after 5.00pm on the last working day before Christmas and we had 14 days to reply. A court date was set for 29 May.
To cut a long storey short, the neighbour did not relent in any way putting as much pressure as possible on us. I prepared my reports, we employed an indendent planning expert and structural engineer and had reports from the gas company regarding our gas installation. The neighbour did similar, employing a planning consultant and engineer. Fortunately for us their engineer was more of an accident accessor than a building engineer and must of his claims were erroneous and flawed.
We both had solicitors appointed and also barristers for the court.
In May we attended the circuit court and both barristers put their cases forward. The judge saw sense and threw out both injunctions and put off the civil equity suit for another day in July (costs would also be awarded in July).
To attend court for the second time in July would cost each party approx. €15k. Both our solicitor and our barrister were of the opinion that the judge would not award costs to any one party (as they were neighbours and had to live alongside each other) so they persuaded my client to split costs and put off the July court date. The neighbour agreed to this.

So what costs were involved for us :
Sloicitor €20k
Barrister €6.5k
Planning Expert € 3k
Structural Exp. € 3k
Me €10k

Total €42.5k

<SNIP>

As our solicitor said, if he appointed a local solicitor then the issues would have been resolved and this would never have gone to court, Instead he employed some hot shot city solicitor and an engineer who regularly attended court and new "the layout our the land". I'm disappointed that we never had our second day in court as in my opinion this guy should have been heavily punished for his actions and made to pay our costs. <SNIP>