Sub 3 Hour Marathon

James42

Hi All,
Was wondering if anybody has followed the Hal Higdons advanced ll schedule. Looking to break the three hour in the great Limerick run on the May Bank holiday weekend. Have came very close in my last three marathons Dublin 2009 3.03 Limerick 2010 3.01 Dublin 2010 3.02. Can't seen to get over the finish line. Was looking at this programme to see if this could get me under the three hour mark.
Thks,
James

village runner

James42 wrote: »

Hi All,
Was wondering if anybody has followed the Hal Higdons advanced ll schedule. Looking to break the three hour in the great Limerick run on the May Bank holiday weekend. Have came very close in my last three marathons Dublin 2009 3.03 Limerick 2010 3.01 Dublin 2010 3.02. Can't seen to get over the finish line. Was looking at this programme to see if this could get me under the three hour mark.
Thks,
James

Times seem odd.
Why dont you just train for a 2.55 one ??

seanynova

James42 wrote: »

Hi All,
Was wondering if anybody has followed the Hal Higdons advanced ll schedule. Looking to break the three hour in the great Limerick run on the May Bank holiday weekend. Have came very close in my last three marathons Dublin 2009 3.03 Limerick 2010 3.01 Dublin 2010 3.02. Can't seen to get over the finish line. Was looking at this programme to see if this could get me under the three hour mark.
Thks,
James

get the book "Daniels Running Formula", excellent programme and you should be able for it as you have already 3 marathons done.

Gringo78

Some background might help. Did you use same plan for 3 previous marathons? How many marathons have you done? Do you have an idea why you didn't make the 2:59:59? Do you have shorter race times which suggest you should be able for Sub 3? Have your other race times improved or remained the same over the same period?

Krusty_Clown

My vote would be to go with Pfitzinger and Douglas' Advanced marathoning programs. The programs got me from a Hal Higdon 3:22, to 3:00, 2:55 and then to 2:48 in a relatively short space of time, without considerably high mileage.

Weigh up your options, and choose the right program one for you. Also have a look for the sub-3 thread, which has quite a considerable amount of discussion and information on the subject.

quintana2

James42 wrote: »

Hi All,
Was wondering if anybody has followed the Hal Higdons advanced ll schedule. Looking to break the three hour in the great Limerick run on the May Bank holiday weekend. Have came very close in my last three marathons Dublin 2009 3.03 Limerick 2010 3.01 Dublin 2010 3.02. Can't seen to get over the finish line. Was looking at this programme to see if this could get me under the three hour mark.
Thks,
James

Hi james, I think you just need to run faster! I like you had a couple of close calls with 3.00 hrs 3.00.36 dublin 2000 , 3.02. london 2001. This year after about 3 years away from running i ran 2.58.7 in dublin . I had been bike racing for a few years and just started to run again last winter because of the ice on the roads. I was running much faster times for all the shorter races 10 years ago and was doing more mileage and speed work 60-70 miles a week.This year i started to train properly in august but had no week over 50 miles and no speed work. I ran two races in training a half in 1.25 pb by 3 min (only my second) and a ten in 64 . 4 minutes slower than my pb. What did i change? In all my previous attempts i ran the first half in 1.29-1.29.30 and faded at the end, this year i threw caution to the wind and ran 2.50 pace untill 19-20 miles i faded from here and the last 3 miles were not pretty but i got there. I also ran my last 2 long runs faster than before the last being under 3hr pace for 21 miles.This run made me realise that i'd need a special run on the day to break 3hrs .I did have 3 gels this year also which was something new.So enjoy May go for it and don't take no for an answer!!! and if all else fails HTFU!!! it worked for me;)

frebel

wow, some great info on this thread and the forum in general - great to read all the tips - thanks to all posters ... but think I'm at a paralysis by analysis state at this stage

Looking for a sub 3 hour program that would suit but have changed my mind so many times at this stage that I'm a bit lost having gone from higdon to pfitzinger to FIRST program and back again

Basically I've only ever trained for half marathons but in a sporadic fashion. Have managed to string together a few since september doing two 1:25s in 2 weeks and then training for clontarf with this program for 12 weeks (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/half-marathon-training-593)

Sample Week
WEEK 3
Toughie No. 1: 3.5 continuous miles at LTRV (10 to 12 seconds per mile slower than your current 10-K PB)
Toughie No. 2: Repeat 800s at a pace which is 6 seconds per 800 faster than current 5-K pace
Toughie No. 3: Six miles at PHMP

My longest run was 9 miles but was doing 2 nights of intense boxing training as well which really helped as well I feel

Did a sub 1:23 in Clontarf yesterday which I was happy about (despite a tweaking and squeaking hamstring - did yoga every morning for 2 weeks leading up to race but need to keep working on flexibility) but where do I go from here?

Thought Gringo79 broke down elements of a strong program well with
You need 3 key workouts a week:

1. Long Slow Run...1min a mile slower than your marathon pace. Throw in every second week some miles towards the end of the run at target marathon pace +10-20sec. I think its important you don't actually run at target marathon pace on the LSR as its not the same as post taper so I'm not sure its benefical whereas PMP+10-20 would be a more accurate simulation of the PMP on the marathon day. Better still might be to run some miles at the end of the run at the same HR as you would be expect to have on race day....should be slower than PMP as you haven't tapered.

2. Interval Training....5-8 x 0.5-1mile intervals at 5k pace (session will be about 6-7 miles)

3. Tempo Run.....20-40min @ 10k to HM pace (session will be about 6 miles)

The rest of the running should be at easy/recovery pace, PMP+60sec probably at least.


But this seems similar to the Hal Higdon program which people seem to critise for anyone going for sub 3 hour time.

Ultimately what I want is a program with

Tempo Run
Interval Training
Long Run
X training (which I feel works for me)
Extra Easy miles to be added as weeks go on

Has anyone done a program along these lines that has got them a sub 3 hour? I know programs at that level are quite personalised but any advice would be appreciated. Thanks again

drquirky

frebel wrote: »

wow, some great info on this thread and the forum in general - great to read all the tips - thanks to all posters ... but think I'm at a paralysis by analysis state at this stage

Looking for a sub 3 hour program that would suit but have changed my mind so many times at this stage that I'm a bit lost having gone from higdon to pfitzinger to FIRST program and back again

Basically I've only ever trained for half marathons but in a sporadic fashion. Have managed to string together a few since september doing two 1:25s in 2 weeks and then training for clontarf with this program for 12 weeks (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/half-marathon-training-593)

Sample Week
WEEK 3
Toughie No. 1: 3.5 continuous miles at LTRV (10 to 12 seconds per mile slower than your current 10-K PB)
Toughie No. 2: Repeat 800s at a pace which is 6 seconds per 800 faster than current 5-K pace
Toughie No. 3: Six miles at PHMP

My longest run was 9 miles but was doing 2 nights of intense boxing training as well which really helped as well I feel

Did a sub 1:23 in Clontarf yesterday which I was happy about (despite a tweaking and squeaking hamstring - did yoga every morning for 2 weeks leading up to race but need to keep working on flexibility) but where do I go from here?

Thought Gringo79 broke down elements of a strong program well with
You need 3 key workouts a week:

1. Long Slow Run...1min a mile slower than your marathon pace. Throw in every second week some miles towards the end of the run at target marathon pace +10-20sec. I think its important you don't actually run at target marathon pace on the LSR as its not the same as post taper so I'm not sure its benefical whereas PMP+10-20 would be a more accurate simulation of the PMP on the marathon day. Better still might be to run some miles at the end of the run at the same HR as you would be expect to have on race day....should be slower than PMP as you haven't tapered.

2. Interval Training....5-8 x 0.5-1mile intervals at 5k pace (session will be about 6-7 miles)

3. Tempo Run.....20-40min @ 10k to HM pace (session will be about 6 miles)

The rest of the running should be at easy/recovery pace, PMP+60sec probably at least.


But this seems similar to the Hal Higdon program which people seem to critise for anyone going for sub 3 hour time.

Ultimately what I want is a program with

Tempo Run
Interval Training
Long Run
X training (which I feel works for me)
Extra Easy miles to be added as weeks go on

Has anyone done a program along these lines that has got them a sub 3 hour? I know programs at that level are quite personalised but any advice would be appreciated. Thanks again

As has been said in the thread already, Daniels and P and D are both more than adequate for a sub 3 mara. TBH from what I can see in your training/racing you've got plenty of speed to go sub-3 w/ that 93 min HM but you'd really struggle endurance wise.

If I were you I'd build a base w/ 8-12 weeks easy running (starting at 35 building to 55 miles a week w/ a progressively increasing long run (9miles up to 15 ) and then jump into one of those listed programmes for 12 weeks leading up to a marathon. You'll see huge increases w/ increased easy running and a proper long run...good luck

frebel

drquirky wrote: »

As has been said in the thread already, Daniels and P and D are both more than adequate for a sub 3 mara. TBH from what I can see in your training/racing you've got plenty of speed to go sub-3 w/ that 93 min HM but you'd really struggle endurance wise.

If I were you I'd build a base w/ 8-12 weeks easy running (starting at 35 building to 55 miles a week w/ a progressively increasing long run (9miles up to 15 ) and then jump into one of those listed programmes for 12 weeks leading up to a marathon. You'll see huge increases w/ increased easy running and a proper long run...good luck

Cheers for the reply - yeah probably have the speed at smaller distances - did first 10km of half yesterday in 38 mins but the endurance would be the one to target alright...

Have it in my head to try barcelona though! which is in 15 weeks... if that doesn't work out I don't mind as I'll then go for Cork having had a base done at that stage...

Hence maybe the appeal of the Hal Higdon advanced program (even though I'd have to skip 3 weeks somewhere) but it seems flexible in that easy runs can be swapped for cross training but there's a build up to forty miles per week -

Think I'll go for a long slow run on hard grass this weekend and see how I feel about upping endurance runs

http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51141/Marathon-Advanced-1-Training-Program

drquirky

frebel wrote: »

Cheers for the reply - yeah probably have the speed at smaller distances - did first 10km of half yesterday in 38 mins but the endurance would be the one to target alright...

Have it in my head to try barcelona though! which is in 15 weeks... if that doesn't work out I don't mind as I'll then go for Cork having had a base done at that stage...

Hence maybe the appeal of the Hal Higdon advanced program (even though I'd have to skip 3 weeks somewhere) but it seems flexible in that easy runs can be swapped for cross training but there's a build up to forty miles per week -

Think I'll go for a long slow run on hard grass this weekend and see how I feel about upping endurance runs

http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51141/Marathon-Advanced-1-Training-Program

For a good sub3 shot coming off a pretty low endurance base as you've indicated you'd wanna avg 50-60 mile weeks for a good bit of the programme to avoid a blow up on race day. Swapping runs for cross training is fine if you want to get around a marathon but to run a decent time you honestly need to run 5 or 6 days a week absolute minimum.

I've heard great things about Barcelona Marathon so i'd go for that if you just want the spin but if you care about time I'd do it right, build a proper base and train for Cork instead.....

Also make sure you build milage slowly to avoid injury- many posters on these boards (and elsewhere) have made the mistake of upping milage too quickly and paid the price

ecoli

Looking at the components you listed off the basis of Gringo's post I would say that the P & D programme would bets fit with what you are looking for however like drquirky I would say that the focus should be on getting the endurance up so I would probably recommend you take a look at the following and could be just what you need to push on from your plateau

http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

frebel

Thanks lads - ye're talking a lot of sensible. Think I was high from post run/ PB/ cookie eating to be talking about Barcelona. There are 6 months to Cork from next week.

Think I'll try to up the endurance runs over the next 8 weeks and then start into a 4 month programme. What would think of this to start off with to build up endurance slowly?

Last week would be 55 miles plus tempo. First week 26 plus hills - meaning 30 miles added on average over 8 weeks.

WEEK MON TUE WED THU FRI SAT SUN
1 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run 3 x hill Rest 5 m pace 10
2 3 m run 5 m run 3 m run 30 tempo Rest 5 m run 11
3 3 m run 6 m run 3 m run 4 x 800 Rest 6 m pace 8
4 3 m run 6 m run 3 m run 4 x hill Rest 6 m pace 13
5 3 m run 7 m run 3 m run 35 tempo Rest 7 m run 14
6 3 m run 7 m run 3 m run 5 x 800 Rest 7 m pace 10
7 3 m run 8 m run 4 m run 5 x hill Rest 8 m pace 16
8 3 m run 8 m run 4 m run 40 tempo Rest 8 m run 17