racehorse training fees

kickin king

hi guys

i was wondering if it is a profitable venture to go into racehorse training
obviously i no that training a small string of 5 or so wouldnt be profitable but lets just say if i buit a name for myself and if i was training 40 at €40 a day would it be profitable? Out of interest does any one approximately how much in terms of overheads eg staff feed vets for a trainer to train a horse?? what would the big trainers make per annum?? and also does any one no the training fees of any trainers??

thanks and any comments would be greatly appreciated

convert

Lots of questions there...

First off, if you want to train horses to run on the racecourse you'll have to do a course with the Turf Club, and then they have to inspect your yard, where you need to have suitable training grounds and access to a given number of schooling fences. As far as I remember you also need to show that you have at least 20k available to you.

Vet costs: how long is a piece of string. It all depends on your horses' health, how well the riders mind them, etc. You'll also need to have the horses vaccinated annually (more frequently at the start of their vaccs), worm doses, etc. Usually this would be passed on to the owners, but if you're starting off you'd probably have to take a bit of a hit (depending on the owners, of course). You'll also have to factor in farrier costs, too.

Feeding: depends on what and how much you feed, what supplements, etc. you buy.

Wages: It'll vary, usually 50 euro per person for a half day's work. You'll also need to factor in more costs for hiring in people to ride a spot of work (if not using your own staff), costs of jockeys on race day, as well as the groom(s).

If you don't have your own yard, you'll need to factor in rents. But you can't forget about start up fees and initial outlays, etc. Then you'll also be looking at paying yourself a weekly wage, too. Afterall, you can't live on nothing while you're getting established.

No idea what big trainers make? Training fees will vary from 600 to 800 at the low end of the scale, but don't forget, you can't charge the same as the big trainers when you're not known. It's unlikely to attract owners.

Do I think it's profitable? Horses never make money!
Given the economic climate I think there are enough people struggling to make a living, and you'll really need to do a huge amount of research into it before you should even consider seriously thinking about it. You'll also want a huge disposable income to get set up and then maintain everything until you start to even break even, let alone make a profit.

kickin king

600 to 800 surely that is per month you mean

smartaform

Yes it would be per month, however some trainers are charging that and only just covering the costs...
Last year David Myerscough handed in his license due to the costs associated with training. I for one thought he'd be around in training circles for a good while. At the time he had something like 35 horses in work and between 2 yards...
He was charging over 1200 per month..

kickin king

ya thats interesting i would have associated him as one the rising stars!! but surely there is money to be made if u charge a 50 euro a day or so with 30 in training ?? as well as that 10% of prize money is given to them as well??
so is this image of trainers goin racin in fancy cars a fake image of their wealth??

Shelflife

KK theres even more money to be made if you charge €60 per day, simple fact is that you wouldnt get that type of money unless your one of the top boys.

the 10% winnings depends on you winning (not being smart) i would imagine that you wouldnt want to be relying on that money to make your way in racing.

i think the going rate is about €40 per day with a decent trainer.

Its hard hard work and you wouldnt really want to be going into it if making money is your goal.

convert

I'm not trying to be condescending here, but if yot are thinking of setting up a yard you'll really need to sit down and research everything in detail. All requirements, both turf club and legal (health and safety, legislation re. workers, insurance, cost of trainers' course, etc.), start up costs, day-to-day expenses.

Then you'll need to have owners lined up (requirement of turf club, if I remember correctly, before you get your licence).

You'll need to have a very good business plan, too, if you're looking to borrow money. If you sit down and do a good job when researching you'll have a better idea of what's involved.

If you're really serious about training it would be a very good idea to get a job with a trainer as assistant trainer so you'll get a better insight into what's required of you. Maybe it's just me, but your posts come across as a little naive at the moment. Yot can charge 100 euro a day and still struggle to break even. What yot charge is irrelevant, it's finding owners who'll support (and pay) you is the biggest thing.

solerina

I can only answer a bit of your question
I know we pay about 1000 euro per month on average (occasionally 950 but mostly 1000-1100) it depends on things like shoes, dentist, travelling to races/schooling races/jockeys. The very well known trainers charge more. This due not include HRI fees etc.
The vet bills us directly for our horses (so the trainer does really have that expense).
Our trainer is mainly a point to point trainer with a small string of horses running on the racetrack.... and charges 32 euro per day.
I have a friend who had a horse with one of the top NH trainers and he said that he was nearly broke from race entry fees(possibly due to balloting) and took his horse away as a result and gave it to a smaller trainer who gave more individual attention and entered more carefully and therefore didnt cost as much (into the HRI account).

Winning Ways Racing

smartaform wrote: »

Last year David Myerscough handed in his license due to the costs associated with training. I for one thought he'd be around in training circles for a good while. At the time he had something like 35 horses in work and between 2 yards...
He was charging over 1200 per month..

His website used to have a full list of horses in training and the ownership was thinly spread and with a lot of related parties who were never going to support him forever, including his father.

If you train a small number of horses, you can do most of the work yourself. You just won't have much of a life. Once you have 20-30 horses you should be able to make some sort of go of it but obviously depends on what you are charging owners and also what prizemoney you are winning. I think the big problem is when you have 7 to 20 horses. Too many to do without a team and like most things, there are economies of scale and until you hit that sweet spot of 20/30 horses, it will be as hard having 15 in training as 5. You also need to be very hard nosed. Horses will come and go and if you keep staff on in the quiet times you could end up throwing away any profit you make. Labour management vitally important as well as everything convert and others have said.

Tough in the current environment and if you have a bit of land or family that can help then worth considering. If you are starting from scratch I'd try and go in as assistant somewhere first, maybe move to UK for a few years for experience.

smartaform

Winning Ways Racing wrote: »

His website used to have a full list of horses in training and the ownership was thinly spread and with a lot of related parties who were never going to support him forever, including his father.

I agree that they weren't going to support him forever, but it was more than a good foundation to start from.

Good to see you back on boards.

convert

solerina wrote: »

he was nearly broke from race entry fees(possibly due to balloting)

Are entry fees not returned if the horse is balloted out of the race (assuming the horse is not scratched prior to balloting)?

solerina

I have looked at a few recent HRI statements and no, entry fees are not returned, if you get through the balloting stage you must pay a further declaraton fee but the original entry fee seems to be taken and not refunded....there is also a fee taken (quarterly levy) to keep the horse registered

convert

solerina wrote: »

I have looked at a few recent HRI statements and no, entry fees are not returned, if you get through the balloting stage you must pay a further declaraton fee but the original entry fee seems to be taken and not refunded....there is also a fee taken (quarterly levy) to keep the horse registered

I knew I had read that the entry fees were returned if a horse was balloted out! Just found this on the HRI website: HRI Directive 10, vii

Eliminating and Balloting out of Horses:

Refund of Fees
Owners with horses balloted out or eliminated will not be charged any entrance,
forfeit, declaration or bookage fees.

The entry fees for each race are broken down, and you pay a certain proportion for each stage of the race entry, provided the horse isn't scratched. And, as stated in the above directive, these fees are returned if the horse is balloted out.

If these haven't been refunded by the HRI, I'd suggest you get in touch the relevant department as soon as possible. Is it possible the trainer scratched the horse rather than it being balloted out?

convert

And if anyone's interested, the full list of fees payable by owners are included in directive 12, also available at the above link. ^^^

Winning Ways Racing

Thanks Smartaform. Nice to be back after a break. It seems to be busier on here than a while back.

There are many misconceptions about balloting. Fees.....you have to declare. So a lad sees his horse is 60 in the ballot so says "sure no point in declaring as I'll never get in" which would be incorrect. By not declaring he has thrown away his entry fee. Declare and get ballotted and you get yoru entry fees back. The other misconception is that if you get balloted ten times and then wait for the race you want, that you have a better chance of getting in than a horse with one sole ballot. The ballot is done by date. So if you are running next Sat they look back at the last similar handicap hurdle and horses who got ballotted from that get preference. Of course if there are 30 that got balloted, then they look to those with most ballots. A final misconception is that if you enter in any old race that the ballots you get are all the same. In fact, ballots only work for the same type of race e.g. a ballot in a 0-102 is worth nothing in a 0-109.

There ya go. Went through this painful procedure with one of our horses and became an expert!! We got a run with one or two ballots preferences each time, ahead of other horses who were entered more times than us.

s-cogan

fellah i know dropped his price last year to 150 a week, just to feed em. added on was shes, vet, trainin(use of public gallops etc.), transport, etc etc. worked for him, as most other trainers locally upped their all-in prices, eg one lad went from 200 to 300 a week, ie from 800 to 1200 a month. his way just appealled bettert o the owners.

theaceofspies

Had a permit myself training my own horses. The costs are scary (lot's of hidden costs). I imagine that many trainers are having difficulty getting paid at present and many owners are questioning whether they are getting value for their money with race cancellations and the dominance of the large stables such as W. Mullins. It would take a brave man or woman to start up in racing from scratch right now. Best of luck with it!

Huntthe

Good thread , every other week in the Irish Field you'll see established trainers advertising to train horses for monthly all in fees around €700-800. I think you would have to have large no.s or mix your business to make it pay. The only way I would use one of the high profile trainers again is if I had a star. Otherwise the country is full of competent trainers operating at fees mentioned above. Your reasonably talented horse in a big yard is just a cash cow for the trainer were in a smaller yard he's a star. Just find one of these trainers you trust or even better find one that's honest