Waterford should not suffer from airport budget cuts

RobitTV

DESPITE being the only regional airport in the country not to receive substantial State aid Waterford continued to perform reasonably well in the past year.

Deputy John Deasy believes it should therefore not bear the brunt of further planned budget cuts in 2011. Deputy Deasy said that in the four-year plan recently passed by the Dail, it was announced that €5.5 million would need to be cut from regional airports in the coming year.

He said that Waterford stood out as being well managed, efficient and had the potential to be one of the main drivers of economic growth for the South East region in the years ahead.

“These factors need to be pointed out and correctly identified before any decisions on regional airport budgets are made next year,” he said.

In an examination of where budgets could be cut he said that if the Government looked at where the money had gone over the last five years they would quickly come to the conclusion that some of the airports on our Western seaboard had been heavily subsidised for many years.

Replies to Dail questions posed by Deputy Deasy indicate that passenger numbers have been reduced across the board since 2008 at every regional airport.
Deputy Deasy said, “The passenger numbers are down at Waterford from last year when 111,837 people used the facility.

He said UK business routes have only seen a 3-4% decrease at Waterford even after all the adverse factors they had to deal with.

“We now know that substantial money will be taken from the regional airport budget next year. I have a concern that there will be a move to take a cut from each individual regional airport budget as opposed to funding the more efficient airports like Waterford,” he added.
(from the news and star)

kensutz

And your opinion on it is? :rolleyes:

RobitTV

kensutz wrote: »

And your opinion on it is? :rolleyes:

Well sinced you asked :rolleyes:....

I do agree with this, Waterford airport was supposed to be getting a New extended runaway with new terminal building, Funding was supposed to be secured all the way back in early 2007, i dunno why they didnt just start then. But yeah When there budget goes down this year, Less passngers for sure, Less facifiltes, shame really The airport is going great In my opinion.

savic04

sadly when you are 90mins from Cork and Dublin now with a billion euro road facility in Dublin's case, the funding matter will be less and less!!!

road_high

savic04 wrote: »

sadly when you are 90mins from Cork and Dublin now with a billion euro road facility in Dublin's case, the funding matter will be less and less!!!

But surely traffic can go the other way as i.e. accessible for lots more people in south Leinster using it, that would have just gone to Dublin before.

Neworder79

Deasy is saying that Waterford deserves special treatment as it didn't receive PSO route subsidy when other regionals did. This PSO money goes to the airline but indirectly subsidises the airport through high out of hours fees.

However Waterford has been loss making and received Operational Subsidy (OPEX) grants averaging e1.2m per year since 2005, totaling e7,309,000 in 5 the years. In many of those years other airports with a PSO route did not need OPEX grants as they broke even or made a profit on commercial business (e.g. Kerry/Knock/Donegal). There were also varying levels for Capital infrastructure grants (CAPEX) given to all the regionals.

PSO was the raison d'etre for Aer Aranns base in Galway which supplies Waterford with it's only airline, you could say PSO has helped Waterford indirectly also. He is arguing semantics and you can't really say Waterford is less subsadised overall (expect to hear this type of posturing from lots of regional politicians in the coming months).

I'm not saying there isn't a good case for funding and a better future for the airport ahead (I believe there is). I'm just pointing out some holes in his statement and the opaque mess that the Minister for Transport calls aviation policy.

Deasy is right that we should focus scarce resources on the sustainable efficient airports rather than the current vote grabbing sweets for all approach.

Dum_Dum

Public transport to Dublin Airport takes 4 hours
Public transport to Cork Airport is not available if your flight is before noon.
Or pay extortionate parking charges and inflating fuel prices.

Hardly a choice.

merlante

Neworder79 wrote: »

Deasy is saying that Waterford deserves special treatment as it didn't receive PSO route subsidy when other regionals did. This PSO money goes to the airline but indirectly subsidises the airport through high out of hours fees.

However Waterford has been loss making and received Operational Subsidy (OPEX) grants averaging e1.2m per year since 2005, totaling e7,309,000 in 5 the years. In many of those years other airports with a PSO route did not need OPEX grants as they broke even or made a profit on commercial business (e.g. Kerry/Knock/Donegal). There were also varying levels for Capital infrastructure grants (CAPEX) given to all the regionals.

PSO was the raison d'etre for Aer Aranns base in Galway which supplies Waterford with it's only airline, you could say PSO has helped Waterford indirectly also. He is arguing semantics and you can't really say Waterford is less subsadised overall (expect to hear this type of posturing from lots of regional politicians in the coming months).

I'm not saying there isn't a good case for funding and a better future for the airport ahead (I believe there is). I'm just pointing out some holes in his statement and the opaque mess that the Minister for Transport calls aviation policy.

Deasy is right that we should focus scarce resources on the sustainable efficient airports rather than the current vote grabbing sweets for all approach.

I don't buy this argument that Aer Arann is being subsidised to fly out of Waterford via PSOs to Galway et al.

It just doesn't make any sense. If Aer Arann were losing money in Waterford, why would they fly out of there? Why wouldn't they just pocket the profits from the PSOs? O'Ceidigh has given personal guarantees on loans for the airline (according to a Newstalk radio interview), which means that if Aer Arann fails, as it nearly did recently, he could lose his house, etc. Given that, why would he do Waterford or the government a favour and fly out of Waterford if they were losing money? Also, if the London route, in particular, was loss making, why then go and compound your losses by adding additional routes, as Aer Arann have done over the past couple of years?

Aer Arann cancelled Amsterdam because it wasn't making money, they could have at least paired back the other flights out of Waterford if they were also loss making.

The benefits reaped to the regional economy easily surpass €1.2m per year imho, since so many businesses rely on it, and many jobs also rely on it. And even at that, business only provides around 40% of the traffic iirc. There would also be a fair amount of tourism in there as well. The removal of the airport for the sake of €1.2m per year would be counter productive.

If Waterford ever gets the runway extension, then it will be able to run charter flights to the Canaries, etc., during the off-season, which is a nice little earner that airports such as Knock have benefitted from for years. Much of this traffic is last minute, opportunistic bookings, often taken up due to the geographic proximity of the airport, and with no other airport within 80 miles, is unlikely to canabalise Cork airport.

In the absence of concrete evidence that Aer Arann is operating at a loss out of Waterford, I really wish people wouldn't imply this is the case, particularly when the funding situation is going to become a sensitive issue.

road_high

I think Waterford could have a great future for people who want to avoid the hassle of Dublin. Particularly as there is no other commercial airport in Leinster which Waterford airport could easily serve with the new road access. Unlike Connacht and Munster which have an airport in nearly every county!

Neworder79

merlante wrote: »

I don't buy this argument that Aer Arann is being subsidised to fly out of Waterford via PSOs to Galway et al.
...
It just doesn't make any sense. If Aer Arann were losing money in Waterford, why would they fly out of there? Why wouldn't they just pocket the profits from the PSOs?

Don't disagree with much of what you say, I was making the point that it isn't true that because it doesn't receive PSO grants Waterford is a subsidy free airport as the original news paper article suggested.

I also never said they were losing money in Waterford, if anything some of the routes looked to be performing better than Galway last year.

All AA routes could be profitable for all we know (they don't publish any details), but I'd imagine having generous PSO grants to pay the basic base running costs gave AA a cushion in starting commercial routes in the gaps between PSO services, and helped the airports offer better terms for those routes.

Cabaal

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Public transport to Dublin Airport takes 4 hours
Public transport to Cork Airport is not available if your flight is before noon.
Or pay extortionate parking charges and inflating fuel prices.

Hardly a choice.

- No public transport to Waterford airport (last I knew of anyway)
- Fights are much more expensive

If you compare the time and transport time to Dublin Airport it'll likely still work out cheaper then Waterford.

It has its uses don't get me wrong but lets not suggest its the best thing since slice bread.

merlante

Neworder79 wrote: »

Don't disagree with much of what you say, I was making the point that it isn't true that because it doesn't receive PSO grants Waterford is a subsidy free airport as the original news paper article suggested.

I also never said they were losing money in Waterford, if anything some of the routes looked to be performing better than Galway last year.

All AA routes could be profitable for all we know (they don't publish any details), but I'd imagine having generous PSO grants to pay the basic base running costs gave AA a cushion in starting commercial routes in the gaps between PSO services, and helped the airports offer better terms for those routes.

Fair enough. It's not subsidy free, but what people have been trying to do for a while now is make a clear and obvious separation between Waterford and the airports with PSO subsidised flights, on the basis that Waterford is making a business with minimal government funding. This is important because when PSOs are brought up as being wasteful, and extend that to a general criticism of regional airport costs, those making the point rarely make a point of excluding Waterford. This perception doesn't do Waterford any favours at all, because it should be held up as an exemplar and not 'part of the problem'. So to that extent, the overall point I think he is trying to make is valid.

I take your point that having the PSOs in place, does help Aer Arann when it comes to cash flow.

I would prefer is the government took a similar stake in Aer Arann as it has in Aer Lingus, because flights between Irish airports and the UK are strategic. I think PSOs to Dublin should be ultimately scrapped and replaced with higher speed rail services. PSOs to London, or possibly a European hub, would make more sense. A PSO for Galway-Waterford-Amsterdam for example would be far better than Galway-Dublin when there is a train doing the same route.

Neworder79

Completely agree merlante, the purpose and benefits of the original PSO scheme were lost in the boom years when it became a byword for waste with much of the public.

That can be rectified if the Government get off the fence and remove unnecessary PSO routes where new motorway and rail have improved access and travel times.

But as you say it can be a useful tool in developing access to a region. A PSO has even been suggested to provide a direct link between Dublin and Silicon valley.

However I think they would have a tough time selling the international PSO idea to the wider public now when they didn't like domestic subsidy, though it would probably generate a better ROI for international business.

merlante

Neworder79 wrote: »

Completely agree merlante, the purpose and benefits of the original PSO scheme were lost in the boom years when it became a byword for waste with much of the public.

That can be rectified if the Government get off the fence and remove unnecessary PSO routes where new motorway and rail have improved access and travel times.

But as you say it can be a useful tool in developing access to a region. A PSO has even been suggested to provide a direct link between Dublin and Silicon valley.

However I think they would have a tough time selling the international PSO idea to the wider public now when they didn't like domestic subsidy, though it would probably generate a better ROI for international business.

It's all politics as you say. But I think there is a hugely compelling case for doubling up on regional cities and linking them to an airport like Amsterdam or Frankfurt. You could make it to east Asia or Australia in 2/3 hops, and you are still not undermining Dublin, Cork or Shannon, which will always have the selection of direct flights that the regional airports will not, and probably should not, have.

I think all airports like Waterford ever need and a few good UK connections and a good connection to a European hub, which could be shared with another regional airport.

Even with the money the government is spending right now on PSOs, a lot more could be done if the subsidised flights from regional airports to Dublin were abolished.

I like the idea of the PSO between Dublin and silicon valley. Better than a PSO between Knock and the Vatican anyway.

Psychedelic

merlante wrote: »

Better than a PSO between Knock and the Vatican anyway.

WTF? You're joking, right?

fricatus

merlante wrote: »

I like the idea of the PSO between Dublin and silicon valley.

Seems like a great idea actually - now that's somewhere we should be putting our money. Dublin-Shanghai too.

As for the regional cities, Galway-Waterford-Amsterdam and Paris, and also Galway/Waterford-London would be a much better use of PSO money than Knock-Dublin for example.

Psychedelic wrote: »

merlante wrote: »

Better than a PSO between Knock and the Vatican anyway.

WTF? You're joking, right?

I think he was

Neworder79

He's Joking, only PSO supported services are:

Galway - Dublin (3 return daily)
Sligo - Dublin 2 (Return daily)
Donegal - Dublin (2 Return daily)
Derry - Dublin 2 (Return Daily)
Knock - Dublin (1 Return daily)

Kerry previously had 3 services but is no longer PSO as Ryanair are operating the route commercially (EU law only allows subvention where a route is not otherwise commercially viable).

merlante

From a Waterford point of view, it would be great if you always had a viable choice between, say,

Waterford-Dublin Heuston (train), Dublin Heuston - Dublin Airport (metro/interconnector - 25mins), Dublin - X
and
Waterford-London/Amsterdam/Manchester, London/Amsterdam/Manchester - X

A lot of people would still go via Dublin/Cork to avoid a second flight but sometimes it would work out better ex-Waterford. I realise I've controversially added infrastructure into the Dublin option that will not exist for a foreseeable future, but I really think it's needed at some point!

I also do think that it is time Waterford Airport added public transport for its flights.

calvin_zola

Why is there no bus out to Waterford airport to meet the flights? I think it is ridiculous in this day and age that Kavanaghs or Bus Eireann haven't tapped into this....Do the taxi companies have some kind of hold on the place.... I don't think Waterford Airport needed a new terminal to begin with , extend the runway and get the longer routes in, the terminal will expand as more flights come in

Dum_Dum

calvin_zola wrote: »

Why is there no bus out to Waterford airport to meet the flights? I think it is ridiculous in this day and age that Kavanaghs or Bus Eireann haven't tapped into this....Do the taxi companies have some kind of hold on the place.... I don't think Waterford Airport needed a new terminal to begin with , extend the runway and get the longer routes in, the terminal will expand as more flights come in

I've never understood why Suirway's Dunmore East service never sent some services via the Airport.

road_high

calvin_zola wrote: »

Why is there no bus out to Waterford airport to meet the flights? I think it is ridiculous in this day and age that Kavanaghs or Bus Eireann haven't tapped into this....Do the taxi companies have some kind of hold on the place.... I don't think Waterford Airport needed a new terminal to begin with , extend the runway and get the longer routes in, the terminal will expand as more flights come in

Am I right in saying most of Kavanaghs Waterford-Dublin services originate already in Tramore so it would seem logical to me to route some of these from/via the airport, particularlyat times to tie in with the relevant flights that use the airport?
Many more people from KK, Carlow and Kildare may be incentivised the use the airport therefore as well? Just a thought...

fricatus

mfitzy wrote: »

Am I right in saying most of Kavanaghs Waterford-Dublin services originate already in Tramore so it would seem logical to me to route some of these from/via the airport, particularlyat times to tie in with the relevant flights that use the airport?
Many more people from KK, Carlow and Kildare may be incentivised the use the airport therefore as well? Just a thought...

Brilliant idea actually... makes a whole lotta sense.

As an extension to that, there are regular Bus Éireann buses between the city centre and Tramore, and certainly some could go via the airport. Kavanaghs have a service between Ballygunner and Tramore too (via Ardkeen) which could link the airport with both Tramore and the east side of the city.

merlante

Yeah, this idea of re-routing either Bus Eireann or JJ Kavanagh via the airport has crossed my mind before. There are a few minor drawbacks:
1. In the case of the Tramore-Waterford Bus Eireann service, it's obviously going to lengthen the journey and maybe people would prefer to know ahead of time if the bus they are getting is one of the airport buses or not, so they could avoid it.
2. The road between Tramore and the airport is horrendous.

Because of this, and the relatively low number of flights per day, it might be just better to run a different service entirely to the Bus Eireann one.

In the case of JJ Kavanagh, some of the same arguments apply, but also with the added benefit that you'd have a bus between Waterford airport and Dublin/Dublin Airport. Although with the length of the JJ Kavanagh journey I can't imagine there would be much *regular* usage of such an option.

There should be some public transport option to the airport though, and it would be better if it hit Tramore as well as Waterford.

Neworder79

I'm not 100% but I think the Dep of Transport have control of bus route allocation.

Wouldn't hold my breath, took 10 years to convince BusEireann to send a bus to Knock (though several routes were passing the entrance), and a further 5 to begin the services after they were finally announced with the usual political fanfare.

Not sure about private operators. Passenger figures mightn't be high enough for it yet but the short distance to the City should be a nice little business for a private shuttle bus meeting flight arrivals.

merlante

Neworder79 wrote: »

Not sure about private operators. Passenger figures mightn't be high enough for it yet but the short distance to the City should be a nice little business for a private shuttle bus meeting flight arrivals.

Well if passenger numbers increase, passenger throughput is still likely to be spread out over the day as much as possible, given the limited space at the terminal. So you'd have a case for a more regular service as opposed to, say, a bigger bus. Any service will have to be completely responsive to the schedule of the flights. That being the case, and based on the intransigence of Bus Eireann, I think you are talking about some private bus/shuttle bus.

According to wikipedia, the seating capacity of an (Aer Arann) ATR-72 is 48-72, depending on the seating arrangements. Taking the average, 60 seats, and applying an 85% load factor (my estimate, at least for the Luton flights), you have around 51 people spilling out of the terminal after a flight. If we take a conservative estimate that 40% of passengers are bound for the city (more for evening flights), then you have 20 people needing to get into town. If you were to run a bus from the airport to Ardkeen, Parnell st. and WIT, you'd probably cover 60% of the population within a convenient walking distance. So if only 60% of people could be conveniently serviced, then you are down to 12 people. Definitely down to shuttle bus territory. The taxis could mop up the other 8 plus others going to Tramore and the surrounding areas. Of course, during the day time, you would also have people heading into Waterford seeking to link up with other public transport, so these numbers are conservative.

Charging 12 people a fiver a head, you'd make 60 euro on the trip in. Presumably you'd make a similar number of the trip out. Initially, people would take time to discover the service, but once it got off the ground, less people would get taxis and you'd have people dropping off people at the shuttle bus stop, etc. €5 might seem expensive for the service, but the taxi costs €15 each way so it's competitive, and better to have an expensive service than no service at all. There should certainly be a small but viable business there. I counted 30 flights a week from the site, an average of just over 4 flights per day, and presumably the same number landing, so you could keep one driver and a minibus pretty busy, maybe even for the whole day as long as a few lengthy unpaid breaks were agreed on.

The main problem you'd have is strife with the taxis, who probably view the airport as a lifeline. You could reduce their fares by maybe 40%. The ferrymen weren't too happy when Timbertoes was built.

Psychedelic

A little bit off topic, but this was in this week's Munster Express:

An aviation company that is in the process of setting up a network of passenger seaplanes operating between the county’s main cities, including Waterford, moved a major step forward to realising its dream last month when An Bord Pleanala rejected appeals against its operation at Lough Derg on the River Shannon.

The County Clare based Harbour Flights Ireland Ltd now says it hopes to commence operations in the New Year ferrying passengers in seaplanes between Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and a number of other locations.

The proposal for Waterford is for the seaplanes to land on the Suir in the inner port adjacent to the Quay. Passengers would then be taken by tender to one of the city marinas.

Mr Adam Cronin of Harbour Flights Ltd told The Munster Express it was intended to lodge a planning application with Waterford City Council later this month. He was optimistic that flights would be operating by next summer with passengers using a small, low-level pontoon attached to one of the existing marinas.

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/planning-boost-for-seaplane-service/

calvin_zola

Psychedelic wrote: »

A little bit off topic, but this was in this week's Munster Express:


http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/planning-boost-for-seaplane-service/

thats brilliant, hope it goes ahead

Groinshot

mfitzy wrote: »

I think Waterford could have a great future for people who want to avoid the hassle of Dublin. Particularly as there is no other commercial airport in Leinster which Waterford airport could easily serve with the new road access. Unlike Connacht and Munster which have an airport in nearly every county!

Waterford is in munster..

EMSCHAP

Why does the airport persist in keeping all their eggs in the one Aer Arann basket? There are other regional airlines operating similiar aircraft which could easily operate into Waterford. We have seen what has happened in the past when single operators have run into trouble and ceased operations at Waterford. The Waterford/Luton route has been one of the most profitable regional routes in these islands, no matter who operated it, even with Ryanair in the 80s.

calvin_zola

Groinshot wrote: »

Waterford is in munster..

I don't think they meant that Waterford was in Leinster, probably talking about how Waterford could serve the Carlow, KK and Wexford area