Sale of Alcohol Bill 2011

electrogrimey

This isn't as much as announcement as much as a challenge. Go forth and find as much information about this as you can. Was supposed to be published in 2010, but has been pushed back to 'early 2011'.

This article has the most information, and in this transcript of a Seanad debate it's mentioned by a Labour party member as if accepted fact that the short hours are hurting business. However,

Dermot Ahern says this:

I propose to bring in the sale of alcohol Bill sooner rather than later. There have been suggestions that we should review opening hours with regard to the changes we made recently in the Oireachtas. I have received representations from various groups requesting the hours be returned to what they were and extended again. I am not prepared to change the hours. I am not aware whether representations have been made to the Deputies opposite on the issue. Despite the Armageddon suggested, the hours are reasonable. Deputy Upton raised a salient point — something I say in the presence of the Minister for Health and Children — on the issue of the availability of drink in the country and the damning statistics with regard to the level of alcohol use by the population.

Maybe with the change of government it'll get finally passed?

dubsbhoy

Looks like i'll have to vote Labour, we should get a boards petition going and email it to Ahern

ironclaw

Is this the one thats pushing back closing hours?

es-cee

dubsbhoy wrote: »

Looks like i'll have to vote Labour, we should get a boards petition going and email it to Ahern

the current hours are a joke anyway, hopefully somethin is done about it soon.

electrogrimey

ironclaw wrote: »

Is this the one thats pushing back closing hours?

Hopefully.

M O N T O

As the first political party to respond to our submission, Sinn Fein are to be commended. However, their response did not sufficiently address the main issues we have raised, nor did they elaborate on their 2005 call for “the liberalisation of licensing laws towards European model involving flexible opening and closing times to prevent drink-related disorder.”

Sunil, a chara

my apologies for the delay in getting back to you. Thank you for sending
us your detailed submission.

Since early 2005 Sinn Féin have called for the liberalisation of licensing
laws towards European model involving flexible opening and closing times to
prevent drink-related disorder.

We also advocate a significant role for the community in the determination
of licensing restrictions including hours of sale through Local Licensing
Fora (see below).

Sinn Féin's position on alcohol may be summarised as follows:
· We support harm reduction through stringent legislative control of
alcohol including well-monitored and enforced licensing legislation.
· We support the use of taxation policy to contribute to alcohol harm
reduction through price deterrence and ringfencing of revenues to fund
alcohol control and other harm reduction programmes.
· We support control of the availability of alcohol by restricting the
number and type of outlets where it is sold, the number of licenses
granted, and the hours and days of sale.
· We recognise the need to legislate and monitor for safe serving
practices, including mandatory recognised training for staff.
· Introduction of an effective national framework for monitoring and
evaluating alcohol consumption, related indicators of harm, and alcohol
control responses.
· Support for the involvement of local authorities and local
communities in the liquor licensing control process.
· Local Licensing Fora should include elected representatives,
statutory authorities, licensed trade representatives, community
representatives, and other stakeholders such as those involved in
addiction services.
· Licenses should be awarded individually and on the basis of good
practice and subject to annual review for compliance history. Group
licensing should end.
· All applicants for new liquor licenses must be able to clearly
demonstrate not only compliance but also proactive public health
promotion and harm reduction actions.
· Offenders should face license suspension, withdrawal or other
sanctions greater than potential profits to be made, as appropriate.
· Adequate powers to temporarily close licensed premises during the
most profitable periods.
· We are willing to consider the introduction of a penalty points
system for licensees, resulting in referral for license withdrawal
and/or disqualification for persistent offenders.
· Legislation to require a prominent common standard health warning,
information on the maximum daily recommended intake and indication of
alcohol content by unit on all containers of alcohol sold.
· An independent regulator for the drinks industry with powers of
enforcement, the ability to review complaints about manufacture,
marketing and sales practices, and the ability to withdraw products that
do not comply with set criteria.
· Support for significant investment in increasing alcohol-free social
alternatives including attractive safe spaces for young people.
· Full implementation of the European Charter on Alcohol and the
Declaration on Young People and Alcohol.
· Full alcohol legislation and policy harmonisation on an all-Ireland
basis.

I hope this gives you an understanding of our policy on the issue.

Is mise,

Miriam Murphy
Policy Advisor

Some other pretty interesting stuff on the subject here.
http://www.giveusthenight.org/

eeloe

Thank god!

I also saw something on the news about the vintners federation applying to the government, to imply a minimum price on the sale of alcohol in off-licenses and supermarkets.

Should bring a few more people back in to the pubs!

Android 666

eeloe wrote: »

Thank god!

I also saw something on the news about the vintners federation applying to the government, to imply a minimum price on the sale of alcohol in off-licenses and supermarkets.

Should bring a few more people back in to the pubs!

I be quite happy to see the vintners federation run into the ground and disbanded. Bunch of price fixing muppets with too much representation in the Dail. We don't need alcohol kept in pubs. It should be sold through cafés and the like - something the vintner's federation are completely opposed to.

SuprSi

Agree completely. Obviously they have their own livelihood to maintain but they had no problem charging crazy money for alcohol during the good times and haven't really done much to bring the punters back now that things are a good deal tighter. I appreciate that Diagio and the likes have a big part to play, but I'd imagine few people have sympathy for pub owners and the Vintners.

And as for fixing the price of alcohol in off-licences? Pffft, please. Next the RAI will be insisting that Tesco/Dunnes/Lidl raise the prices of meat so that more people will eat in restaurants.

RMD

This stupid rule of 10 o'clock makes no sense. It makes no difference in the level of drink consumed to be quite honest because in the 2 scenarios where I'm drinking I'm either heading to a nightclub where an off-licence would make no difference to me or I'm heading to a house party where I bring enough drink to keep my going the whole night.

If I remember correctly one of the reasons they brought this law in was to combat underage drinking, even though it's basic knowledge most people underage will buy their drink around 7-8.30 as that is when they head out.

BaZmO*

Also remember that people don't get drunk in pubs, it's only the irresponsible measurement of spirits that occurs in the home that gets people drunk. Wouldn't happen in a pub because you have a professional to measure out your drink professionally for you. At a reasonable mark up of course.

Quiggers

and there lies the rub, bars are extortionate here in ireland, remember the door fees on the millennium, the price hikes since then, they refused to fit ventilation for their staff forcing
the gov to bring in the smoking ban, and they've done nothing but cry since. they've been asked to fit out their bars properly for sound but instead take the cheap option and are now damaging their staff and clients ears. as a result the green party are bringing in a knee jerk reaction which will remove music from most venues in the country.

oh and i get drunk in pubs, drink is for socialising, nothing more boring than watching tv sipping tins, and house parties arent what they used to be in my circle of friends.
nintendo wii or xbox or ****ing iphones is all people do at house parties.

bring back semi naked twister

SteoL

Quiggers wrote: »

bring back semi naked twister

I applaud you Sir.

milltown

It's all to cock in this country.
Somewhere around the middle of last year I was in town for a friend's birthday. We'd arranged to meet in Ron Blacks on Dawson street, which I remembered as home to the most expensive pint I'd ever had in Dublin. €6.something iirc. I was surprised when I got in there, firstly that the place was empty, and secondly that they had signs up saying €4 a pint all night. God bless the recession thunk I.

When we left there we walked past Café en Seine, which was packed to the rafters and had a queue outside and is still charging ~€6 a pint.
The mind boggles!

The other day I was in the Orchard in Rathfarnam for a bite to eat and nearly choked when I saw the €5.50 for my pint on the bill. This is in a suburban pub which is packed out every weekend.

Obviously price is not what's keeping people away from pubs so the VFI can fúck right off with trying to get off sales prices increased.

ironclaw

From actively working within a family run pub business, and from relatives in the same profession, its almost impossible to make ends meet in the Irish pub trade unless your in a good spot. Not all (if any) publicans are millionaires and at €5.50 a pint, its nearly not worth their time. The overheads that one doesn't see in a pub are astronomical (Staff, maintenance, rent to name an expensive few) I don't think publicans charge €6 a pint out of choice.

You also have to ask yourself, should a publican have to deal with someone who comes in half wasted on alcohol they didn't sell them? Alcohol that was bought at a price the publican could never match? Remember that major retailers buy in the 1000's. A publican is lucky if they are shifting a 1000 units. If a client drinks little or nothing on the premises, that client is costing them money. The publican will also have to most likely deal with any mess that person makes, at the publican's expense.

Price fixing isn't an answer though to be fair.

BaZmO*

You make it sound like a publican is running a hospital providing an essential service or the like. It's a business, all businesses have their downsides, including overheads etc.

I really hate this poor me attitude that publicans take. There are so many ways in which pubs can attract different clientele or hold onto their existing clientele. It's just now they have to come up with these ideas, whereas years ago people just went to the pub regardless of what effort the publican made.

g5fd6ow0hseima

ironclaw wrote: »

From actively working within a family run pub business, and from relatives in the same profession, its almost impossible to make ends meet in the Irish pub trade unless your in a good spot. Not all (if any) publicans are millionaires and at €5.50 a pint, its nearly not worth their time. The overheads that one doesn't see in a pub are astronomical (Staff, maintenance, rent to name an expensive few) I don't think publicans charge €6 a pint out of choice.

For those who dont pay any rent, I think anything over €5 is a joke, and I wouldnt pay it. Also, what it costs to have a TV with Sky Sports for the year runs into the thousands, so if a pub got rid of its TV [and I acknowledge that they'd lose the sports fans] wouldnt they be better served in the long run as there's no shortage of people who prefer pubs without TVs - places where you can actually go and have a chat 'auld style'

ironclaw wrote: »

You also have to ask yourself, should a publican have to deal with someone who comes in half wasted on alcohol they didn't sell them? Alcohol that was bought at a price the publican could never match?

I'd throw them straight out. Also, regards matching the price - as I said, if they owned the premises and got rid of the TV, there's no reason why they shouldnt be charging 3.80 for stout / 4.20 for lager.... There's plenty of pubs in Cork City centre charging those prices. Why not Dublin? Dont tell me they're all in debt....

ironclaw wrote: »

Remember that major retailers buy in the 1000's. A publican is lucky if they are shifting a 1000 units. If a client drinks little or nothing on the premises, that client is costing them money. The publican will also have to most likely deal with any mess that person makes, at the publican's expense.

Price fixing isn't an answer though to be fair.

Agreed. Im going to play dumb here and suggest that its in the interests of the VFI to sell 1000 units at €4 instead of 300 or so at €5.50. Could you imagine how packed a Dublin city centre pub would be if they sold all pints for €4 on, lets say, thursday and sunday nights.

milltown

I don't expect anyone to continue running a business that isn't making a profit. If the current business model isn't worthwhile then they need to make changes. Either "add value" to the pub experience (bleurgh! marketing speak) in other ways to justify prices, or find ways to cut costs/increase margins.

People's habits are changing and evolving and businesses either have to adapt or give up. Lobbying and pressure groups to try and force people back to their old ways is a folly. The big money music industry nearly died on it's arse because it didn't think it needed to do anything about the internet other than throw lawyers at it. It's only now that legal downloads are so easy (though ten years too late and still much too expensive IMO) that it's making a recovery. Ditto for the cinemas. I was sad to see the little flea pits close down but the multiplexes raised the standard and they couldn't compete. The big bad internet hit the movie business too but they responded by adding to the experience with stuff like 3d and slashing the time between cinema and DVD releases for movies.

Struggling pubs have to figure out their own response to their problems and may have to ultimately face the fact that falling income and rising rents, wages, insurance etc. mean the business is unsustainable.

ironclaw

I agree with what your saying folks. My experience is in the country, so thats a somewhat different business model.

The problem is, how do you value add in the local? Many places I know down the country have gone the night club or food route. Which is great if you can make a name for yourself. But realistically, how could you make a pub more value friendly? You can't drastically drop the drinks prices, theres only so many DJ's etc you can get in without becoming a half baked nightclub (Which will annoy regulars and won't be popular with the "in" crowd) Food is only so good and that brings in its own costs which can be higher than a pub in the first place. Conferences etc are become more popular in larger venues but again, only small business there.

If there was a great way to add business, I'm sure some if not all Dublin pubs would be doing it.

milltown

Half-time strippers?
It works in Newcastle.

jtsuited

there are far far far far far far far far far too many pubs in this country per capita.
People are cleaning up their lifestyles and having the cop on to not go out and spend 30 euro on 5-6 beers every night.

The pub industry in this country has profited on the collective alcohol problem of the nation and has given NOTHING back whatsoever.

I couldn't give a rat's arse if lots of family-run businesses go bust because they can't charge extortionate prices or run their price fixing cartels anymore.

Zascar

+100

g5fd6ow0hseima

jtsuited wrote: »

there are far far far far far far far far far too many pubs in this country per capita.
People are cleaning up their lifestyles and having the cop on to not go out and spend 30 euro on 5-6 beers every night.

The pub industry in this country has profited on the collective alcohol problem of the nation and has given NOTHING back whatsoever.

I couldn't give a rat's arse if lots of family-run businesses go bust because they can't charge extortionate prices or run their price fixing cartels anymore.

not to mention they're socially acceptable drug dealers.

Quiggers

as for buying power, do like they do in england, form co-op, pool your buying power. staff isnt a problem cost wise as the vast majority of staff are on minimum wage, which just came down and isnt enough to buy 2 pints per hour. soft drinks arent fairly prices, costs me more per pint to be sober, even though rural pubs are supposed to support designated drivers.

add value by offering different music. almost every pub on this island has the same music
a choice of didley I or top 40, if there are even 100 pubs that offer an alternative i'd be shocked. same with food, ok early bird menu's are a good thing but every where does pretty much the same carvery menu.

and again back to pricing, most businesses can have a low cost by encouraging a high turn over, i spent a decade as a barman and have been involved in promotions etc while
living in england, we had less maneuverability due to being tied to breweries, mayby adagio have a strangle hold here, but small businesses can react fast and change, the bitter end in limerick can do €3 a bottle, they're not making much per bottle but they sell a shed load of them.

And me stood in a pub costs the publican nothing, he doesn't pay a foot fall levy like shopping center shops do, it is however bad manners to go to a pub and not by a drink.
but talking to students, the good will between them and publicans is zero. and any pub thats busy mid week needs students on side.

All a price fix will do is make it more lucrative for smugglers and reap higher taxes for the state, pricing also does very little to improve public health, fags are a great example, if the gov really want to improve the health of the nation they would simple make smoking illegal. instead they bleed addicts for more tax revenues.

electrogrimey

Hang on, how did my question about information on club opening hours descend into this...

Just to add something, of course drink prices have an effect on the amount of people that come. There's a reason Pygmalion is packed on Sundays. Half price drinks.

milltown

electrogrimey wrote: »

Hang on, how did my question about information on club opening hours descend into this...

It's the EMDJ forum way. Don't try to fight it, you'll only make it worse.

Phier

Some more links about this:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0103/alcohol.html
http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/147174-vintners-federation-demands-price-controls-alcohol.html