The Sinking of the Laconia.

endakenny

Two-part drama, "The Sinking of the Laconia", Thursday 6 and Friday 7 January at 9pm, BBC 2.

xriptian

we didnt kill enough of those gerrys

Fuinseog

xriptian wrote: »

we didnt kill enough of those gerrys

thats the spirit. bloody jerries flying a red cross flag trying to help civilians to safety. the americans did well to bomb both the u-boat and the allied civilians.

the sinking of the Laconia, or rather the actions after the sinking, was really a prime example that contradicts our hollywood image of jerry.

jonniebgood1

endakenny wrote: »

Two-part drama, "The Sinking of the Laconia", Thursday 6 and Friday 7 January at 9pm, BBC 2.

Thanks for pointer- could be an interesting show. The BBC can be very good at these types of programmes if they avoid trying to walk us through the story with re-enactments.

Tomohawk

I only caught the second half of this drama on BBC2, I thought it was pretty good. The attention to detail on the uniforms was impressive to my eyes anyway e.g. the insignia on the submariners caps. The U-boat looked great inside too. The inclusion of a scene of a german sailor having an outside **** up topside on a special part of the deck rigging was a nice touch...:D

The "drama" was a bit modern i.e. some of the characters personal storylines, the mother and daughter. And did men really hug each other in the 1940s?

German was spoken onscreen and clearly subtitled which was good to see instead of actors putting on ze german accents while speaking english like in 1950s war films.

Was the U-boat the correct class anyone know? Are there many of them left for use in film and tv? I didn't think the exteriors shots were CGI. Impressive co-production all the same!

FiSe

Tomohawk wrote: »

I only caught the second half of this drama on BBC2, I thought it was pretty good. The attention to detail on the uniforms was impressive to my eyes anyway e.g. the insignia on the submariners caps. The U-boat looked great inside too. The inclusion of a scene of a german sailor having an outside **** up topside on a special part of the deck rigging was a nice touch...:D

The "drama" was a bit modern i.e. some of the characters personal storylines, the mother and daughter. And did men really hug each other in the 1940s?

German was spoken onscreen and clearly subtitled which was good to see instead of actors putting on ze german accents while speaking english like in 1950s war films.

Was the U-boat the correct class anyone know? Are there many of them left for use in film and tv? I didn't think the exteriors shots were CGI. Impressive co-production all the same!

I think it was the same class U-boot -IXC- as it was and the mother-daughter story is based on the real event too as is the German guy running around with the camera. Thanks to him a lot of photographs survived and if you google U-156, you will find some of them as well as photographs taken when U-156 was sunk.

I really enjoyed it, it was very well done and very close to reality. Thank god it wasn't made as a 'real life story' in Hollywood. Although, it might yet happen...

Tonight 7.30 on BBC2 is the Laconia sinking told by the survivors.

silverharp

in the part where the Italians were being shot or not let escape the ship. Was that normal procedure on all sides?

Morlar

I came across an interesting post about this the other day on a militaria forum :

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4423097&postcount=10

From the book 'U-Boat Operations of The Second World War' Volume 1.
(Career Histories, U-1 to U-510) by Kenneth Wynn.

U-156 Type IX C

Built by AG Weser, Bremen.

Keel Laid 4/10/40 Launched 21/5/41

Commissioned 4/9/41 Feldpost Nr: M 01 308

Sunk: 8/3/43 E of Barbados (12"38 N 54" 39W)

Served with:

4 U-Flotille, Stettin, September - December 1941
2 U-Flotille, Lorient. December 1941 - 8/9/43

Commanded by KK Werner Hartenstein September 1941 - 8/3/43

Patrols: 5. Ships sunk: 19. (97,190 grt) + 3 damaged.

1. Left Kiel in transit to western France.

U-156 passed to the north of Scotland and en route she laid weather bouys. She put in to her new home at Lorient 10//1/42.

2. 19/1/42 Left to operate in the Caribbean area, as part of Neuland group of five boats, made up of U 156, U 67, U129,
U 161 and U 502.
The plan was for the five boats to be in position by mid-February and for simultaneous attacks to be made on some ports and
oil installations.
In the morning of 16/2/42 U 156 torpedoed three tankers off Sint Nicolaas, Aruba, damaging the SS Pedernales (br 4317t) and
the SS Arkansas (am 6452t) and sinking the SS Oranjestad (br 2396t)
In the afternoon U 156 was unsuccessfully attacked by an A 20 of the 59th Bomber Squadron (USAAF) SW of Aruba.
After dark U 156 returned to attempt a night bombardment of the Shell Lago oil terminal. The tampion was not removed from the
boat's gunbefore firing began. The end of the gun barrel split and the 2 WO was seriously injured and one crewman killed. The
officer was put ashore at Fort de France, Martinique on the 18th for medical attention and the crewman was buried at sea.
On the 20th U 156 torpedoed and sank the SS Delplato (am 5127t) W of Martinique. After several attacks during the hours
of the 25th U 156 sank the tanker SS La Carriere (br 5685 t) S of Puerto Rico. With all torpedoes probably gone and with her
damaged gun temporarily repaired, U 156 sank two ships to gunfire off Cabrera, Domincan Republic, the SS MacGregor
(br 2498 t) on the 27th and the tanker SS Oregon (am 70170) on the 28th. It was reported that the crew of the Oregon were
machine gunned whilst they were in the water.
U156 was the first of the Neuland boats to return to base. She reached Lorient 17/3/42.

3. 22/4/42. Left to operate in the western Atlantic. U 156 patrolled E of the Caribbean, in an area 550 miles
E of the Leeward Islands. The boat sank the MV Koenjit (nl 4551t) early on 13/5/42, the SS City of Melbourne
(br 66300t) by torpedo and gunfire in the evening of the same day, the MV Siljestad (nw 4301t) early on the 15th,
The SS Bardale (br 50720 t) on the 17th and sank the SS Qauker City (am 4961t) and damaged the tanke MV San
Eliseo (br 8042t) on the 18th.

It had been reported that Port de France, Martinique was under surveillance by US naval forces and merchant ships
in the harbour there might be seized. Accordingly, from the 20th U 156 moved westwards towards Martinique. On the
21st she sank the SS Presidente Trujillo (do 1668t) just E of Martinique and on the 25th she torpedoed and damaged
the destroyer USS Blakely in the same area. The warship managed to get away into the harbour.
After a week in the area, much of it spent submerged because of patrolling aircraft, U 156’s crew was under stress. On
the 29th U 156 sank the SS Norman Prince (br 1913t) W of Martinique. Soon afterward she left the area, the fear of an
American attack having abated.
On 1/6/42 U 156 sank the SS Alegrete (bz 5970t) by torpedo and gunfire W of St Lucia and on the 3rd the sailing vessel
Lillian (br 80t), by gunfire 1000 miles NE of the Leeward Islands. The captain of this vessel was taken aboard the boat.

U 156 returned to Lorient 7/7/42.

4. 20/8/42 Left for operations in the South Atlantic, with U 68, U 172 and U 504, forming Eisbaer group.
On the 25th northbound convoy SL 119 was sighted by U 214 E of the Azores. The four Eisbaer boars were
among those ordered to intercept. However, when the convoy altered course the four boats were told to continue
south, their own operation being of greater priority. During the move against SL 119 U 156 sank a straggler from the
convoy, the SS Clan MacWhirter (br 5941t) NNW of Madeira.
From early September the Eisbaer boats operated independently. On the 12th U 156 torpedoed and sank the troop
transport Laconia (br 19695t) NE of Ascension. The ship was carrying 2732 people, comprising 463 officers and crew,
286 service passengers, 80 civilians, including women and children, 1800 Italian PoW’s being taken from South Africa to
the United Kingdom and 103 Polish soldiers guarding the Italians.
The commander of U 156, Werner Hartenstein, was not aware of who was aboard. When he surfaced, survivors in the sea
were calling for help in Italian. When he realised the situation and in spite of the risk of losing his boat and crew Hartenstein
decided to rescue the survivors. He broadcast the s inking location and undertook not to attack any rescue vessels. In response
to his requests for assistance U 459, U 506 and U 507 were ordered to the scene. The commander of U 459 decided he was too
far away and continued on his way south.
U 156 picked up 193 survivors, including 21 British. Doenitz requested that the Italian submarine Capellini, then near Freetown,
join the rescue operation. Doenitz also asked for Vichy French warships to be sent from Dakar.
During the night of 14/15th U 506 arrived. There were then 263 survivors on U 156 and U 506 took aboard 132 Italians from amongst
them. By the morning of the 16th U 506 had more than 200 survivors aboard. En route to the scene, U 507 met up with four of Laconia’s
lifeboats during the afternoon of the 15th. Her commander, Harro Schacht, took aboard the women, gave comfort to other survivors and
took the lifeboats in tow.
On the 13th Hartenstein had a large, white, six foot square sheet sewn with a red cross. On the 16th, when an aircraft was sighted, the flag
was spread over the boat’s deck gun for the US Liberator to see. An RAF Officer aboard U 156 sent a radio message to the aircraft, explaining
the situation. The aircraft left but half an hour later a second Liberator appeared and dropped two bombs, which missed the boat. Hartenstein
cut the line of the boats he was towing as the aircraft came in for a second attack. This time a bomb destroyed one lifeboat and overturned another
and a second bomb fell wide. In a third attack U 156 was damaged by bombs.
Hartenstein took his boat close to the drifting lifeboats and put overboard the 55 British survivors and 55 Italians who had been aboard U 156.
He then had temporary repairs carried out and the boat moved off westwards, taking no further part in rescue operations. Many of those put into
the water did not survive.
French naval vessels, the cruiser Gloire and the sloops Annamite and Dumont-d’Urville, rendezvoused with U 506, U 507 and the Capillini and
took aboard the survivors they were carrying and towing. 1111 people were sav ed, a few of whom died soon after rescue. Among those saved were
about 450 Italians and 73 Poles. The last lifeboat at seas was not picked up until 21/10/42, with only four of the original 51 men having survived.
Doenitz and U-boat Command did not approve of humane work of this sort being undertaken and forbade any future captures, other than ships’
captains and chief engineers. Interrogation was to be confined to those with valuable information.
U 156 resumed her patrol on 17/9/42 and about this time she took on fuel from another boat/ On the 19th U 156 sank the SS Quebec City (br 4745t)
by torpedo and gunfire NNW of Ascension. She later operated W and SW of Freetown, was damaged in mid October and began her return journey in
early November.
En route, U 156 was refuelled by U 462 W of the Cape Verde Islands. She returned to Lorient 16/11/42.

5. 16/1/43 Left to operate in the western Atlantic.
U 156 went first to the area of the Cape Verde Islands. She then crossed the Atlantic and patrolled east of the Caribbean.
On the 8/3/43 U 156 was located by a USN Catalina of VP-53 (Lt E. Dryden) about 330 miles E of Barbados and sighted
on the surface, moving east. Coming from behind clouds, the aircraft surprised of the crew sunbathing on deck. From 100
feet four Torpex bombs were dropped, straddling the boat.
U 156 broke into three parts and sank immediately. Eleven men were seen in the water and a life raft and food were dropped.
Although at least five men were seen to reach the raft a thorough search found nothing.

BlaasForRafa

Morlar wrote: »

I came across an interesting post about this the other day on a militaria forum :

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4423097&postcount=10

Excellent stuff.

I did a bit of further research myself after watching the BBC drama last week. All three U-Boats involved in the rescue, U156, 506 and 507 were sunk in early 1943 with only 15 survivors out of a total of approximately 150 crew.

The italian boat, the Cappellini had a strange journey after the rescue. It was sent to Japan as a transport in 1943, reached Penang by the time of the Italian surrender. It was then seized by the Japanese and given to the Kriegsmarine and served under the German flag. Then after the german surrender it was seized by the Imperial Japanese Navy thus being the only ship to serve with all 3 major axis powers.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/I-503.htm

FiSe

silverharp wrote: »

in the part where the Italians were being shot or not let escape the ship. Was that normal procedure on all sides?

I wouldn't go as far as to say that this was a normal procedure on any side. I'd say that those things happened on all sides.
The sinking of the ship is probably the most extreme scenario, but POW escapees were shot at... just popped into my head - Malmedy

BlaasForRafa

FiSe wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far as to say that this was a normal procedure on any side. I'd say that those things happened on all sides.
The sinking of the ship is probably the most extreme scenario, but POW escapees were shot at... just popped into my head - Malmedy

Malmedy was a different scenario really. It was a notorious execution of about 80 american rear area troops by part of the SS Leibstandarte division, that truly was cold blooded murder whereas the Laconia was more of a "heat of the moment" thing (the poles were portrayed as vicious bastards throughout the film though...)

silverharp

FiSe wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far as to say that this was a normal procedure on any side. I'd say that those things happened on all sides.
The sinking of the ship is probably the most extreme scenario, but POW escapees were shot at... just popped into my head - Malmedy

but in the case of a sinking ship they "must" have had a protocol, of leave them locked up or let them out and everyman for themselves. It seems like they wanted the Italians to go to the bottom with the ship, seemed harsh to say the least

ejmaztec

A handy site for all things maritime, which I found when trying to find out which u-boats tried to kill my ancestor on 3 occasions. Three of the merchant ships on which he was a Royal Artillery gunner, were unfortunately sunk in the Atlantic. After one of the sinkings, he was sitting next to the captain in a life-boat, and when a u-boat surfaced looking for the main man, he told the Germans that the captain had gone down with the ship. The u-boat officer obviously believed him and disappeared into the night, leaving them bobbing around in the middle of nowhere.

http://www.uboat.net/index.html

Re The Laconia, I'm wondering how much fiction played a part in the two-parter. I did a search for "Mortimer", only to find that the real name of the character was Thomas Buckingham, and that the actor playing him mentioned that it was 90% Buckingham and 10% someone else.

I also saw mention that the posh English officer, Coutts (the guy with a plaster on his nose), was in fact a broad Scot, although his name was actually Coutts.

You wouldn't think that they would have to add anything for dramatic effect.

FiSe

That's what he said when the 'names, ranks and nationalities' were taken in the movie too... He said, something like... His name, Gentleman farmer, Scottish...

It was pimped-up, of course, the Franka Potente's character, alas the Anglo/German escapee from the Nazis... the attack of the B-24 and some other small things, but otherwise.
Even the survivors stories were very close to the screen reincarnation.