As a third level lecturer?

BLACKEN

As a third level lecturer what in your words do you think are the major problems that are holding back the level of teaching standards in this country? Some of you may not think there is anything wrong with the current state of things but i would greatly value feedback as to what lecturers think about the standard of learning in our third level instititions.

Thank you.

delta_bravo

From my experiences as a student, grade inflation was a major problem. I did a B.A. and I knew a person that only turned up to hand in essays and go to exams and went to about 5% of all lectures. He left with a 2.2 which is still an honours degree.

University courses in the humanities in particular have become very difficult to get an "A" grade in but very easy not to fail.

Tigerandahalf

I would also say Grade Inflation is a problem. When I say this, I refer to the problem where so many students fail the exam (due to poor guidelines by lecturer/material not covered) and then everyone is pushed up so that a certain percentage will be passed.
A big problem is the standard of lecturing. Some of the lecturers are not capable of teaching. They may know their stuff but they are not teachers. Many of them are very poorly organised. Of all the lecturers I had in college - I did a technology degree - one or two stood out. They were very organised and took the job of lecturing seriously. Many don't. Some just love to preach but don't teach you much. The whole sector could do with a major overhaul. I was in lectures where over 400 students were present. What benefit was it having a lecturer when the lectures could be downloaded online and listened to on ipods etc. The material wasn't complex..just information type material that you had to swot. The courses will have to change and become a mix of online and lectures/tutorials. Practicals (labs) also need to be looked at. Many have masters students overseeing them, who just want to get out of the place as quickly as possible..just like the students in fairness!! I think the students would benefit more from more experienced people who could guide and encourage you. Just my two cents anyway. I'm sure there is a lot of good there as well.

Tigerandahalf

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would also say Grade Inflation is a problem. When I say this, I refer to the problem where so many students fail the exam (due to poor guidelines by lecturer/material not covered) and then everyone is pushed up so that a certain percentage will be passed.
A big problem is the standard of lecturing. Some of the lectures are not capable of teaching. They may know their stuff but they are not teachers. Many of them are very poorly organised. Of all the lecturers I had in college - I did a technology degree - one or two stood out. They was very organised and took the job of lecturing seriously. Many don't. Some just love to preach but don't teach you much. The whole sector could do with a major overhaul. I was in lectures where over 400 students were present. What benefit was it having a lecturer when the lectures could be downloaded online and listened to on ipods etc. The material wasn't complex..just information type material that you had to swot. The courses will have to change and become a mix of online and lectures/tutorials. Practicals (labs) also need to be looked at. Many have masters students overseeing them, who just want to get out of the place as quickly as possible..just like the students in fairness!! I think the students would benefit more from more experienced people who could guide and encourage you. Just my two cents anyway. I'm sure there is a lot of good there as well.

Sorry, just realised you are looking for lecturers' opinions. Too late!!

Godge

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would also say Grade Inflation is a problem. When I say this, I refer to the problem where so many students fail the exam (due to poor guidelines by lecturer/material not covered) and then everyone is pushed up so that a certain percentage will be passed.
A big problem is the standard of lecturing. Some of the lecturers are not capable of teaching. They may know their stuff but they are not teachers. Many of them are very poorly organised. Of all the lecturers I had in college - I did a technology degree - one or two stood out. They were very organised and took the job of lecturing seriously. Many don't. Some just love to preach but don't teach you much. The whole sector could do with a major overhaul. I was in lectures where over 400 students were present. What benefit was it having a lecturer when the lectures could be downloaded online and listened to on ipods etc. The material wasn't complex..just information type material that you had to swot. The courses will have to change and become a mix of online and lectures/tutorials. Practicals (labs) also need to be looked at. Many have masters students overseeing them, who just want to get out of the place as quickly as possible..just like the students in fairness!! I think the students would benefit more from more experienced people who could guide and encourage you. Just my two cents anyway. I'm sure there is a lot of good there as well.

One of the biggest problems in third-level education is the expectation of second-level students coming in and expecting to be taught and expecting to get guidelines of what is going to be in the exam.

There is an expectation that the second-level experience of teaching to the Leaving Cert will be continued. That is no way to deliver higher education.

Yes there are problems with the third-level lecturers including their ability to stand up and give a lecture but it is not about spoon-feeding.

BLACKEN

Thanks for everyones input so far on this subject, there have been some great points made by all. Students often note that there is a lack of ability on a lectures part to actually teach which from my own experience i can confirm. However many colleges raise the point about the lack of students willing to learn for themselfs and there mindset which i blame the current model of most leaving certificate students, as they dont seem to understand that college is there chance to really develop there own learning independence.

So both sides have issues with each other, how in the future do you think these problems can be overcome?

jrt123

where to start:

i will elaborate on these if needed.

1) over-regulation (often aimless) from hetac/fetac... i.e. Here is a module guide for management, you must cover xyz topics... why!? why cant i just teach management my way! of course apathy will set in if i'm beingt old before the course begins to just regurgitate a notion of management that a text book prescribes. If i was told 'you have to teach management for 24 weeks, 3 hrs a week, go go go!' i could have a ball!!

2) over-worked lecturers. the cliche is lecturers only doing 20 hr weeks, isnt it easy. i challenge anyone who sits at a desk for 40hrs a week to do 20 hr weeks on show! you dont get down time. you cant day dream at your desk. Creativity often is stifled by the need to just get it done.

3) leaving cert learning - as mentioned by another poster above. as a gross generalisation, irish students arrive in 3rd level with very little critical thinking skills

4) class sizes... as mentioned above 400+ in a room... may as well download it.

5) reintroduction of fees. €5000 a year will soon seperate those who WANT 3rd level education and those who figure they may aswell because what else would they be doing.

A case I am aware of to highlight points 3-5. I have taught erasmus students who are here for a semester, who are fee paying. These students WANT to be students, they WANT to learn. I had 20-30 eu students for 12 weeks teaching a topic, and 100+ irish students doing same subject over same 12 week period. The irish students had not paid to be there. The standard of class/interaction/thought/analysis/grades were worlds apart, polar opposites.

/rant

jrt123

BLACKEN wrote: »

how in the future do you think these problems can be overcome?

some potential solutions.

1) as mentioned above, reintroduce fees. More money for colleges, more lecturers, smaller class sizes, better classes.

2) a massive overhaul of the beaurocracy of hetac accreditation and review processes.

3) in business disciplines greater focus of courses. i.e no longer degrees in 'Business Management' and 'Marketing', rather degrees in 'FMCG Sales' 'Human Resource Management' etc... i.e. much more targeted degrees. the result of this would be rather than 100+ business grads applying to, for example, Diageo for a graduate sales role, a graduate can apply and say 'yes, i have a sales specific degree' ... the student output product would be of greater value and benefit to the employer, and as potential employees graduates would have certain niches.

kiwikid

delta_bravo wrote: »

University courses in the humanities in particular have become very difficult to get an "A" grade in but very easy not to fail.

same with sciences when i was in college, difficult to get A's but more people dropped out than failed out. Many scraped a 42% overall and left with a pass degree but university degree nevertheless.

kippy

Hi,
I'm not a third level lecturer as such but I have experience in a similar field,
as well as having been a student of four different third level institutions ( a mix of full time, part time and distance learning). I've also extensive work experience in the Information Technology side of things.

The best lectures I have attended and the most memorable have been ones where the class size has been relatively small (below 50) and the lecturer has some level of interaction with the class. Gaining attention, asking questions, garnering views from members of the class, as well as some practical examples and stories from their own careers, as well as the obvious presentation of material. This is not common enough in third level and probably goes back to two or three things:
The lecturer not being interested enough in what they are doing.
The lecturer having too big a class size.
The students not caring enough to interact.
The lecturer not having the ability to interact with their students.

I can imagine paperwork and standards are huge for courses now, however one has to ask how much interaction with industry takes place in order to come up with course material and the level of knowledge of this course material required in order for a student to get a good degree. I find a large portion of certain degrees are pure waffle or at best not apt for the eventual aim of the student career choice. This may not be something a lecturer can sort out however it is something that can be improved at third level.

There are obviously issues that follow on from the leaving cert, unrealistic expectations and indeed a "carbon copy" approach that does not harness critical thinking. Perhaps these need to be addressed in secondary level, but it is key that we improve the level of knowledge of the science and maths subjects coming from second level.

Rosita

jrt123 wrote: »

4) class sizes... as mentioned above 400+ in a room... may as well download it.

5) reintroduction of fees. €5000 a year will soon seperate those who WANT 3rd level education and those who figure they may aswell because what else would they be doing.

A case I am aware of to highlight points 3-5. I have taught erasmus students who are here for a semester, who are fee paying. These students WANT to be students, they WANT to learn. I had 20-30 eu students for 12 weeks teaching a topic, and 100+ irish students doing same subject over same 12 week period. The irish students had not paid to be there. The standard of class/interaction/thought/analysis/grades were worlds apart, polar opposites.

/rant

I should stress at the outset that I have no difficulty with the reintroduction of fees per se but I'm not so sure about the significance of reintroduction of fees to the motivation of students in general. I went to university in a non free-fees environment and I saw plenty of unmotivated/disaffected students around. I'm not sure on a day to day level that it really was a motivational factor that their parents or the state was paying their fees.

And 20-30 EU students might not be a very represenative sample. If they are interested enough to go a different country to college for a period they might be on the higher motivation side of things anyway.

It could be argued that night students who pay fees are more motivated but it often might be the case that they are more mature and focused than people in their later teens or twenty years old anyway. Perhaps I am missing something but I'm not convinced that paying of fees necessarily motivates students.

As for class sizes - I'm not sure how it is proposed to provide instruction the sort of large numbers universities invite without very large classes. I've been in many lectures where there were 200 people and frankly it wouldn't have mattered had there been only 20 in the lecture hall given that it was a straight-up lecture as opposed to a seminar anyway. And I'm not sure how letting 400 students download a lecture as opposed to physically attending would make for a better education for the student (there might be financial/convenience benefits for verious parties but that's a different issue).

BLACKEN

Just something i stumbled acourse on facebook today, might be of interest to people here.

Incompetent academics to face strict penalties
.by Union of Students in Ireland (USI) on Thursday, January 6, 2011 at 11:20am.ACADEMICS face stiff penalties if they fail to get a satisfactory rating under a proposed controversial performance appraisal system.



Under the confidential plans, staff who get a poor rating will not be able to go for promotion, take sabbatical leave, undertake private consultancy work or receive annual salary increments.



The proposals were put forward in discussions with the unions on implementing the Croke Park Agreement.



They also provide for targets to be delivered by academics and for student evaluation of their own lecturers.



But the plans are facing massive opposition from unions.



Individual universities are putting forward slight variations of what one described as a "menu" of options which seek greater co-operation and flexibility from staff.



One university said that the time at which leave was taken was at the discretion of management and must be applied for and approved in advance.



The same institution said that a review of contracts would include a "requirement to be in attendance at the university during the normal working week for the duration of the college year which is 12 consecutive calendar months".



The requirement would seem to rule out academics working from home.



A tough negotiating line is also being taken by management for the Institute of Technology sector.



Although lecturers are contracted for up to 560 teaching hours per year, the institutes claim many do not meet that target and are insisting that they do.



Both the Teachers' Union of Ireland (TUI) and the Irish Federation of University Teachers are resisting many of what they see as the excessive demands being made by management and the talks are said to be at a crucial stage.



Concessions



The Croke Park deal provides for an extra hour per week but the unions argue that management is trying to extract too many additional concessions from them.



Ballots of the final proposals will have to be organised so that the changes can be implemented in time for the next academic year.



The proposals echo the approach being taken in the forthcoming Hunt report which said there was a lack of transparency regarding staff workloads in the universities.



This contrasted with other countries, said the report, which stressed that the transparency and content of academic contracts needed to be addressed to ensure that productivity was at acceptable levels and that public confidence was

maintained in higher education.



It also called for greater managerial discretion with regard to under-performance by staff in higher education institutions.



Paddy Healy, former president of the TUI, said that together with colleagues from the universities and Institutes of Technology, he was organising a meeting of academics to resist the plans -- which he described as an "attack" on

academic freedom, permanency and tenure, and Irish democracy.



- John Walshe Education Editor



Irish Independent - January 06 2011