Should A Political Party Have to Name Its Proposed Cabinet Before The election

Fitzerb

Should a Party Name a Proposed Cabinet before people vote? I know it would be difficult but at the moment the opinion polls are telling us that it will be FG Labour. Who will be Finance Minister?
Michael Noonan, Richard Bruton, or Joan Burton. I sure would like to know before I cast my vote.
FG is such a divided party that I fear Enda will appoint his allies as Minsters so that he is protected.
On the other hand Labour is short of people with real experience.
Not sure how it would work but I think all parties should have a proposed cabinet for people to vote on.

Liam Byrne

How would that even be possible if the results of the election mean that there has to be a coalition ?

Joan Burton & Michael Noonan aren't in the same party, so it could come down to whether either FG or Labour can form a government with some independents, giving them full control, or the scenario you described above with Labour.

Given the performance of independents holding the country to ransom (case in point : Healy-Rae & Lowry) I'd certainly prefer what you suggest is likely, but we can't know that in advance.

So, taking your thread title literally, there's merit in it.
But since even your first post contradicts the context of the title, it isn't possible.

Lapin

And who is to know if any of the cabinet nominees will be re-elected ?

Liam Byrne

Lapin wrote: »

And who is to know if any of the cabinet nominees will be re-elected ?

Or, for that matter, whether a newly-elected candidate might even be the best person for the job ? It's not beyond the bounds of possibility given that people are supposedly clamouring for qualified people that their non-political (i.e. "outside/former") experience might mean they're the most qualified with a decent track record.

Conversely, if this person were proposed as such and then NOT elected - e.g. hypothetically if George Lee had worked out as an "economics expert" and then not been elected - where would the OP's proposal stand then ?

Fitzerb

I understand what you are all saying and I do not have an answer, but what are we voting for , A Taoiseach ? It’s a crazy situation that a person could run the Finances of the Country because he is a loyal supporter of the party leader. There has to be a better way. I think that there are key posts that we need to know who will be in charge. Finance, Health, Social Welfare , they are the big spenders.
If all parties tell us who they are proposing then at least then even in a collation it will be either or. But for me the current system does not work. If the nominated person does not get elected it could be because the locals know a lot more about him then the rest of us.

nesf

No, quite simply coalition Government has become the norm in this country and the split of seats between parties comes down almost completely on how many TD seats the parties got making it impossible to fully lay out your cabinet ahead of time.

Victor

Fitzerb wrote: »

FG is such a divided party that I fear Enda will appoint his allies as Minsters so that he is protected.

Keep your friends close - and your enemies closer.

jmayo

Fitzerb wrote: »

Should a Party Name a Proposed Cabinet before people vote? I know it would be difficult but at the moment the opinion polls are telling us that it will be FG Labour. Who will be Finance Minister?
Michael Noonan, Richard Bruton, or Joan Burton. I sure would like to know before I cast my vote.
FG is such a divided party that I fear Enda will appoint his allies as Minsters so that he is protected.
On the other hand Labour is short of people with real experience.
Not sure how it would work but I think all parties should have a proposed cabinet for people to vote on.

This post is nonsensical.
Firstly how can someone name the cabinet before the election, since they don't know who will be elected for sure.
Secondly there are two different parties.
They have not reached an agreement and will not until after the actual election, as then they will know their actual elected numbers and their bargaining positions.

You claim that you want to know before you cast your vote, but in all reality I bet you will not vote for either party above anyway. :rolleyes:

All this thread and post is about is trying to ramp up the old fear factor that either Enda will appoint some dodery old fools, because he reckons that they backed him or that we will have Joan Burton as finance minister.
You mention FG being divided and Labour's lack of experience.
Any other worries you would like to play on ?

Also did you fail to notice how Kenny appointed to his front bench most of coup leaders.
Ever hear the motto "keep you friends close but your enemies closer" ?
He appears to have appointed people based on their abilites rather than how they supported him.

Victor wrote: »

Keep your friends close - and your enemies closer.

Very true.

expectationlost

how different are the pre election ministerial and shadow position reshuffles to the post election cabinet positions?

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

You claim that you want to know before you cast your vote, but in all reality I bet you will not vote for either party above anyway. :rolleyes:

You just made me think......following on from the OP's post and political preferences, what is their view on the fact that everyone knew that Ahern would be Taoiseach after the last election should FF get in, but there was no indication that Cowen would be Taoiseach or that Tony Killeen would be Minister for Defence ?

If the cabinet has to be pre-disclosed, what is the OP's position on post-election changes like those ? Should we have a new election immediately in those cases so that we can all decide on those again ?

View

Fitzerb wrote: »

Should a Party Name a Proposed Cabinet before people vote? I know it would be difficult but at the moment the opinion polls are telling us that it will be FG Labour. Who will be Finance Minister?
Michael Noonan, Richard Bruton, or Joan Burton. I sure would like to know before I cast my vote.

You do realise that Charlie McCreevy and Brian Cowen would probably have won overwhelming majorities for their "good jobs" as Ministers of Finance, don't you?

Fitzerb

jmayo wrote: »

This post is nonsensical.
Firstly how can someone name the cabinet before the election, since they don't know who will be elected for sure.
Secondly there are two different parties.
They have not reached an agreement and will not until after the actual election, as then they will know their actual elected numbers and their bargaining positions.

You claim that you want to know before you cast your vote, but in all reality I bet you will not vote for either party above anyway. :rolleyes:

All this thread and post is about is trying to ramp up the old fear factor that either Enda will appoint some dodery old fools, because he reckons that they backed him or that we will have Joan Burton as finance minister.
You mention FG being divided and Labour's lack of experience.
Any other worries you would like to play on ?

Also did you fail to notice how Kenny appointed to his front bench most of coup leaders.
Ever hear the motto "keep you friends close but your enemies closer" ?
He appears to have appointed people based on their abilites rather than how they supported him.



Very true.

Unlike you I wont be presumptuous and assume I know who you are voting for.
I don’t expect Enda to put some doddery old fool in as M for F. However I would be a lot happier with Michael Noonan as the Finance head than Joan Burton. He comes across as solid and with a less spin than the majority in the Dial.
Noonan has the experience as against Moan of Arc. He is also pro-business as against the Labour party who want to tax business out of the Country.
You are naive if you think that Labour and FG have not discussed the aftermath of the election and looked at various scenarios.
I find it very simply really.
Each party states who they will put forward as the Minister of Finance if they are elected.
There is no way that the big hitters are not going to retain their seats and it is most unlikely a novice will get the job.
Noonan is FG’s biggest asset but I fear for him if FG win.
As for who I will vote for I cant say other than it will not SF.
I think FF (regardless of performance) should not be returned as it is not good for democracy for any one party to dominate for such a long period. Their performance rules them out of the picture regardless.
I “think” that a fourth element might come into the picture. Remember the no vote for Europe despite the backing of the big three parties. That protest vote is there and there are a lot of people not happy with any of the current lot.

The only other worry I have is that people like you would seem to want everyone to agree with your view point and have no discussion without screaming about the “fear factor” .
Michael Ring Westport (promoted after heave)
John Perry Sligo (Promoted after heave)
James Reilly (promoted)
The ones who led the heave were shifted downwards.

jmayo

Fitzerb wrote: »

Unlike you I wont be presumptuous and assume I know who you are voting for.
I don’t expect Enda to put some doddery old fool in as M for F. However I would be a lot happier with Michael Noonan as the Finance head than Joan Burton. He comes across as solid and with a less spin than the majority in the Dial.
Noonan has the experience as against Moan of Arc. He is also pro-business as against the Labour party who want to tax business out of the Country.
You are naive if you think that Labour and FG have not discussed the aftermath of the election and looked at various scenarios.
I find it very simply really.
Each party states who they will put forward as the Minister of Finance if they are elected.
There is no way that the big hitters are not going to retain their seats and it is most unlikely a novice will get the job.
Noonan is FG’s biggest asset but I fear for him if FG win.
As for who I will vote for I cant say other than it will not SF.
I think FF (regardless of performance) should not be returned as it is not good for democracy for any one party to dominate for such a long period. Their performance rules them out of the picture regardless.
I “think” that a fourth element might come into the picture. Remember the no vote for Europe despite the backing of the big three parties. That protest vote is there and there are a lot of people not happy with any of the current lot.

The only other worry I have is that people like you would seem to want everyone to agree with your view point and have no discussion without screaming about the “fear factor” .

You are playing on a fear factor that Joan Bruton will be minister of finance and you admit as much.
And I do agree Noonan would be better but we don't know what is going to happen for sure.
Your assertion that the parties should come out with front bench positions based on a non existent colation agreement is indeed asking a bit much of anyone or any party.

Why do you fear for Noonan if FG win ?
There you go again with the fear factor.

You are alos coming out with a statement that lots of ffers are coming out with, and that is that it would be good for the party to be in period of opposition to rebuild, so it is that and some other statemetns that lead me to believe you would or have favoured them.
It is probably very very obvious that I would be a FG voter and I have no problem with admitting that.
BTW i am not member, never have been and never canvassed for anyone.

Fitzerb wrote: »

Michael Ring Westport (promoted after heave)
John Perry Sligo (Promoted after heave)
James Reilly (promoted)
The ones who led the heave were shifted downwards.

The ones who led the heave are still on the front bench and Reilly's only promotion was to be second in charge. He is still in health.
If the ones that led the heave were truly demoted they would be off the front bench.
Some were moved to lesser spokesperson roles but they are still there.

hallelujajordan

I think this suggestion is completely unworkable, primarily because a) it would be entirely presumptuous to nominate someone for a ministerial position before they have even been elected to DE and b) it would give the nominated candidate an unfair advantage within the relevant constituency.

In relation to the choice of Joan Burton vs Noonan/Bruton the electorate already has a clear choice . . the only extra information we could be given now is whether Enda Kenny would appoint Noonan or Bruton and either way it makes little difference . . . the only other way we could be given any more information is if FG/LAB made a pre-election pact and with them bidding to outgun each other this is off the table ..

So the choice is already there for MoF . .

A vote for FG is a vote for Noonan/Bruton
A vote for LAB is a vote for Burton
A vote for FF is a vote for Lenihan

BTW, I really wish that the motives of every thread weren't torn apart in the way they are here. . Even FF members (like myself) can accept that FF have no chance of being returned after the next election and we have a right to go on and question the actions/motives/policies of the other parties without being accused of trying to win votes for FF . .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

A vote for FF is a vote for Lenihan

All of the usual stuff aside, do you seriously think this is the case ?

Every one of Lenihan's decisions to date have had disastrous consequences, plus - as FF people keep reminding us - he's sick.

Do you really believe that FF have him set in stone as the next MoF ?

Because I could imagine that at least some of those who hadn't already decided not to vote FF might be more likely to vote FF if they thought Lenihan would be removed and a more competent person put in there.

Not that I'm complaining, mind!

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

All of the usual stuff aside, do you seriously think this is the case ?

Every one of Lenihan's decisions to date have had disastrous consequences, plus - as FF people keep reminding us - he's sick.

Do you really believe that FF have him set in stone as the next MoF ?

Because I could imagine that at least some of those who hadn't already decided not to vote FF might be more likely to vote FF if they thought Lenihan would be removed and a more competent person put in there.

Not that I'm complaining, mind!

Unless either Lenihan decides not to run (which could still happen) or he challenges and replaces Cowen as leader of FF ahead of the General Election (seems unlikely at this point) then I fully expect that he will enter the election campaign as FF finance spokesman and if FF were to win he would be Minister for Finance in the next Cowen led government.

RichieC

Lapin wrote: »

And who is to know if any of the cabinet nominees will be re-elected ?

Presumably his constituents would think "ooh if we vote him we'll have a cabinet minister as our TD"


actually... no it's a terrible idea..

Overheal

Victor wrote: »

Keep your friends close - and your enemies closer.

Frienemies...

Fitzerb

jmayo wrote: »

You are playing on a fear factor that Joan Bruton will be minister of finance and you admit as much.
And I do agree Noonan would be better but we don't know what is going to happen for sure.

Why do you fear for Noonan if FG win ?
There you go again with the fear factor.

Firstly I am not a member of FF. The only party I was ever a member of was Labour but that was many years ago now. My natural voting home would be FF but regardless of performance I dont think it is good for any Country to have the same party in government for 15 years
My fear for Noonan is that they will dump him if they win. He is a great
in opposition but was not as highly regarded when he was a minister.
I have to say I like his honesty, I thought his performance on TV when he spoke about his wife was really honest and it made me think that sometimes we forget that
Politicians have the same problems as the rest of us. I also thought that Brian Lenihans performance on radio a few months back when he spoke of his brother was very human. Makes me wonder that if we got rid of spin doctors we might see the real people.

Back to the issue ,
My view is that as bad as things are now the thought of "moan of arc" getting the Finance job would lead me to despair. She never stops whinging, she was also the one who dont the most moaning about not spending more and more on the sad stories when we did have a few bob.
I would nearly vote for the Greens rather than she her in that position
Ok thats a bit of an over the top but thats how strong I feel.

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

My natural voting home would be FF but regardless of performance......

This is the key point that undermines your supposed neutrality.

Their performance is well documented and is far, far more of an issue with them remaining in power than their length of time in office.

If they were good, and were ethical, then we'd want them in office longer, despite their length in office already.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Unless either Lenihan decides not to run (which could still happen) or he challenges and replaces Cowen as leader of FF ahead of the General Election (seems unlikely at this point) then I fully expect that he will enter the election campaign as FF finance spokesman and if FF were to win he would be Minister for Finance in the next Cowen led government.

Despite all his mistakes and the monumental cost of same ?

Is there seriously no-one in FF who could do even a half-decent job ?

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Despite all his mistakes and the monumental cost of same ?

Is there seriously no-one in FF who could do even a half-decent job ?

You didn't ask me should he, you asked will he and Yes I believe he will.

mrrepublic

in the not to distant future the people of ireland will face a general election, the importance of the result of this election should not be underestimated. do we want a mish mash coalition of fine gael and labour or would the state be better left in the hands of fianna fail the party that founded the state and lead it to greatness, until gready bankers and developers destroyed it. it seems to me that we can trust fianna fail to rebuild as for the rest forget about them and their false promises.

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

You didn't ask me should he, you asked will he and Yes I believe he will.

Well aside from your personal opinion, the affirmative to "will he" still implies that most of the party reckon that he "should", which is absolutely astounding based on his track recod to date.

Fair enough if your own opinion differs.

gandalf

TBH it is impossible for any political party to predict who will get through the GE in this country based on our current voting system.

[Old Record on]
If we changed to a list system then yes a party could list who they would be putting into seats before the election as people would be voting for a party and policies rather than individuals[/Old Record off]

I understand your fear regarding Joan Burton but to be fair I do not think she will be allowed near the finance portfolio given her pathetic performance during the budget responses. I would say she has cost Labour a fair few seats at the GE. If a coalition occurs I think Noonan would be odds on favourite to be the Finance Minister. Personally I would love to see the man get the leadership of FG again along with the Taoiseachs job. He has really impressed me over the last few months.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well aside from your personal opinion, the affirmative to "will he" still implies that most of the party reckon that he "should", which is absolutely astounding based on his track recod to date.

Fair enough if your own opinion differs.

I don't agree . . I think the inference you are making that most of the party reckon Lenihan should be Minister of Finance is wrong. Do you believe that 'most' of FF believe Cowen should be leader ? For that matter, do you believe that 'most' of FG believe Kenny should be leader

gandalf wrote: »

I understand your fear regarding Joan Burton but to be fair I do not think she will be allowed near the finance portfolio given her pathetic performance during the budget responses. I would say she has cost Labour a fair few seats at the GE. If a coalition occurs I think Noonan would be odds on favourite to be the Finance Minister. Personally I would love to see the man get the leadership of FG again along with the Taoiseachs job. He has really impressed me over the last few months.

Not sure how you make this assertion . . That really depends on how well Labour poll . . If their numbers are strong enough (30 + imo) then we are likely to see Joan Burton, Minister for Finance..

Incidentally, I agree with you re : Noonan . . . I wonder how much support he would have within the ranks of the FG PP

Bottle_of_Smoke

I don't think it should be legislated for as it would be impossible in practical terms - however I would have more time for a party if they gave clear indications of who is most likely to take up important ministries like finance health and education

Fitzerb

jmayo wrote: »

This post is nonsensical.
Firstly how can someone name the cabinet before the election, since they don't know who will be elected for sure.
. :rolleyes:

All this thread and post is about is trying to ramp up the old fear factor that either Enda will appoint some dodery old fools, because he reckons that they backed him or that we will have Joan Burton as finance minister.
You mention FG being divided and Labour's lack of experience.
Any other worries you would like to play on ?

Looks like my nonsensical post is worthy of two articles in the Sunday Indo.

Watch the real crap starting now. FG wanting the Finance Job and prepared to give Lab additional seats at the meal table for it.
Moan of Arc getting side-lined by the Pat “rock the state to its very foundation" Rabbitte. They can smell the power already and wait until the Labour infighting starting now. The various selections conferences will be a blood sport
Noonan for Foreign affairs. Good move Enda let him do the hard work now and get rid of him after the election. Enda is sure to get a majority that will last 5 years if the current opinion polls are correct and by then the rigor mortis that he seems to currently have will surely have completely set in and he get ride into the Mayo sunset with his pension.

Don’t fool yourselves the discussions on forming the next cabinet are well under way and the wagons will circle around the various party clicks to serve their own interests and not the Nation’s interest

Wide Road

Fitzerb wrote: »

My fear for Noonan is that they will dump him if they win. He is a great
in opposition but was not as highly regarded when he was a minister.

Who in your opinion didn't highly regard Ml Noonan as a Minister?
Who do you think will dump him and will replace him with?

bmaxi

Wide Road wrote: »

Fitzerb wrote: »

My fear for Noonan is that they will dump him if they win. He is a great
in opposition but was not as highly regarded when he was a minister.

Who in your opinion didn't highly regard Ml Noonan as a Minister?
Who do you think will dump him and will replace him with?

Well, his performance re Bridget Mc Cole certainly didn't win him many friends and I fear has tarnished his reputation. Nothing to do with his capabilities if Minister for Finance of course but an insight into his general demeanour and Kenny might think it would damage his party's profile as the "good guys."
He wouldn't be my favourite politician but certainly an able one. He would do a much better job in Finance than Lenihan but now I've typed that I realise it's not much of a compliment.

Noreen1

Wide Road wrote: »

Who in your opinion didn't highly regard Ml Noonan as a Minister?
Who do you think will dump him and will replace him with?

I didn't regard him highly as a Minister,(I still don't!) precisely because I detested his utterly ruthless treatment of Bridget McCole. To bully a woman into a settlement, on her deathbed, because the HSE failed in its duty of care to it's patients, takes a particular kind of morality - and not one that I would choose to trust with decisions affecting the finances of everyone in this country.

Fitzerb

Noreen1 wrote: »

I didn't regard him highly as a Minister,(I still don't!) precisely because I detested his utterly ruthless treatment of Bridget McCole. To bully a woman into a settlement, on her deathbed, because the HSE failed in its duty of care to it's patients, takes a particular kind of morality - and not one that I would choose to trust with decisions affecting the finances of everyone in this country.

I can see why you would be disappointed over the McCole case but in fairness it would have been easier for him not to take that decision and go the other way. I think he was making a hard nose decision based on the potiental cost. Very cold I know but it takes a bit of guts to do it. Not sure I could. I think he performs well and is a more experienced person now He is really leading FG at the moment. Eithna Kenny seems to be gone shopping for new dresses.

Noreen1

Fitzerb wrote: »

I can see why you would be disappointed over the McCole case but in fairness it would have been easier for him not to take that decision and go the other way. I think he was making a hard nose decision based on the potiental cost. Very cold I know but it takes a bit of guts to do it. Not sure I could. I think he performs well and is a more experienced person now He is really leading FG at the moment. Eithna Kenny seems to be gone shopping for new dresses.

I was more than disappointed. I worked with her daughter, and I could tell you tales that would make your hair curl!

The agony that family went through is indescribable.
I can understand that he made his decision based on the cost - my issue is the fact that it took a particular kind of (im)morality to take that stance.

I agree that he is a competent Minister - but I don't believe a Country should be Governed with that degree of ruthlessness, particularly since the super rich are being treated so "compassionately":rolleyes: at present.
It's as simple as that.

squeakyduck

Technocratic Government please.

No, I'm not mad.

mrrepublic

A reliable FF supporter told me that Brian Cowen would wait and see if he was included in the new front bench before deciding on whether he would run in the next election.
Also FF would engage very strongly with labour to form the next Goverment, think about it who would have ever tought that FF and the greens pre last election would form the next goverment.