forensics courses

carlybabe1

Hi, i posted a similar question quite some time ago, but circumstances were not conducive to me returning to college at the time, however i looked on the ucd website and the modules for forensic anthropology dont seem to be available anymore. Can anyone help me with this? does anyone know whats happenin? Or if theres other courses available, thanks

Dr Strange

The forensic anthro module runs during the autmn/winter time. So you would have to look out for the forensic anthro module starting september/october 2011.

carlybabe1

thanks, i was able to find it in the prospectus a few yrs ago, but cannot find it at all now. Wanted to do it with archaeology. will keep an eye out

Dr Strange

Hi,

as it is offered by the UCD School of Medicine & Medical Sciences you would have to look up the modules under Medicine and the particularly the Human Anatomy module for semester 1.

See here for module searches:

https://sisweb.ucd.ie/usis/w_sm_web_inf_viewer_banner.show_search?p_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsisweb.ucd.ie%2Fusis%2Fw_sm_web_inf_viewer_banner.show_search&p_return_url=&p_website_mode=PROSPECTIVE&p_current_page=1&p_search_by=SUBJECT&p_term_code=201000&p_keyword=&p_search_title=N&p_search_desc=N&p_search_module_code=N&p_search_all=N&p_category=MED&p_subcategory=ANAT&p_level1=Y


Info on Forensic Anthro (just click the first underlined part of the link, it works ):

https://sisweb.ucd.ie/usis/w_sm_web_inf_viewer_banner.show_module?p_subj=ANAT&p_crse=10030&p_term_code=201000&p_return_url=&p_website_mode=PROSPECTIVE&p_semester=Semester One&p_crumb=%3CA%20href%3D%22https%3A%2F%2Fsisweb.ucd.ie%2Fusis%2Fw_sm_web_inf_viewer_banner.show_search%3Fp_url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fsisweb.ucd.ie%252Fusis%252Fw_sm_web_inf_viewer_banner.show_search%26p_return_url%3D%26p_website_mode%3DPROSPECTIVE%26p_current_page%3D1%26p_search_by%3DSUBJECT%26p_term_code%3D201000%26p_keyword%3D%26p_search_title%3DN%26p_search_desc%3DN%26p_search_module_code%3DN%26p_search_all%3DN%26p_category%3DMED%26p_subcategory%3DANAT%26p_level1%3DY%22%3E%20Module%20Search%3C%2FA%3E

UCD Website wrote:

Introduction to Physical and Forensic Anthropology (ANAT10030)
Credits 5 Subject Human Anatomy
Level 1 School Medicine & Medical Science
Semester Semester One Module Coordinator Dr Jean O'Connor



This is an elective module in the first semester aimed at students within the foundation year and first year of medicine and any student with an interest in crime scene investigation. It will consist chiefly of physical anthropology, and will examine primates, human evolution theories and the application of human morphology to forensic science. The course is designed to be of interest to a wide range of students throughout the University. In course assessment occurs alongside the practical component of the course, and the final practical assessment requires that you work in groups on remains typical of forensic anthropological casework. The end of semester examination is a true false MCQ style examination. All assessments are compulsory.

carlybabe1

ah!!! you ANGEL< thanks so much, got really depressed when i couldnt find it as really want to go back to college and hed my heart set on that course. would love it as a major but sure that will do nicely thanks again

Dr Strange

Thanks

Hopefully there will be some changes in future to the module or more modules on offer. At the moment I don't think that UCD would fund such a degree course (this is no reflection on the staff of the course as they are dedicated anatomists/anthropologists). This can be seen in the research projects at Masters and PhD levels. Very hard to get outside funding for forensic and osteological projects. The more research output the better it may get in future though. So keep in mind the masters and then the doctoral level options for forensic and physical/biological anthropology in UCD for your future career.

Dr. Astronaut

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Hi, i posted a similar question quite some time ago, but circumstances were not conducive to me returning to college at the time, however i looked on the ucd website and the modules for forensic anthropology dont seem to be available anymore. Can anyone help me with this? does anyone know whats happenin? Or if theres other courses available, thanks

I dunno if you've pursued your studies already, but if you're really committed to forensic anthropology, there are two universities in England that do forensic anthropology and archaeology (Bradford University and University of Bournemouth). They may only do it at the Master's level, but I think they have some undergraduate programming as well - I looked at doing my Master's there. Alternatively, there are some GREAT programs in North America at the undergraduate and graduate levels (I did forensic anthropology in Canada and loved every moment of it).

Dr Strange

Dr. Astronaut wrote: »

I dunno if you've pursued your studies already, but if you're really committed to forensic anthropology, there are two universities in England that do forensic anthropology and archaeology (Bradford University and University of Bournemouth). They may only do it at the Master's level, but I think they have some undergraduate programming as well - I looked at doing my Master's there. Alternatively, there are some GREAT programs in North America at the undergraduate and graduate levels (I did forensic anthropology in Canada and loved every moment of it).

If you are looking for a complete forensic anthropology and human identification programme go to Dundee Uni. They do forensic anthro at undergraduate level and leading on to masters and to PhD level.

The accreditation and standardisation for practising forensic anthropologists is also currently being looked at UK as well as European level and going to be much stricter than in the past.

Dr. Astronaut

Preusse wrote: »

If you are looking for a complete forensic anthropology and human identification programme go to Dundee Uni. They do forensic anthro at undergraduate level and leading on to masters and to PhD level.

The accreditation and standardisation for practising forensic anthropologists is also currently being looked at UK as well as European level and going to be much stricter than in the past.

Do you know if the UK are going more toward the North American model? There was some talk about that when I was applying to graduate school. I remember that the UK separates forensic anthropology from forensic archaeology, and some programs were being restructured; if I remember right, they were going to try to merge the two so that it was more like in North America, where you don't choose between lab and field, but do both.

Dr Strange

Dr. Astronaut wrote: »

Do you know if the UK are going more toward the North American model? There was some talk about that when I was applying to graduate school. I remember that the UK separates forensic anthropology from forensic archaeology, and some programs were being restructured; if I remember right, they were going to try to merge the two so that it was more like in North America, where you don't choose between lab and field, but do both.

Sorry, I should've clarified: I don't mean the programmes or educational system. No idea what is going to happen there (UK). I meant they are going to change who can/will be acceptable in court as an expert witness in the field of forensic anthropology. It will be strictly regulated and a form of UK-wide as well as Europe-wide accreditation system is likely to come in. The Forensic Science Regulator in the UK has already looked into it and is working with organisations for establishing a system of accreditation and continuous professional development.

The new system will look into accrediting the individual (if you are freelance) as well as the laboratories that deal with forensic anthropological cases (linked to universities, hospitals, etc). Once the process is in place it will mean that anyone who does not conform to the standards set out in the new system and is up-to-date with their accrediation will not be permitted in court as an expert witness.

Dr. Astronaut

Oh, I had no idea! Not that I would know anything about the state of the field in Europe (I barely know what's going on in my own continent!), especially since I have changed fields. Is there a lot of cross-over between countries? As in, do many people from one country in Europe work within other areas? Is forensic anthropology a large field? In Canada, it's quite small and difficult to get into.

Dr Strange

Dr. Astronaut wrote: »

Oh, I had no idea! Not that I would know anything about the state of the field in Europe (I barely know what's going on in my own continent!), especially since I have changed fields. Is there a lot of cross-over between countries? As in, do many people from one country in Europe work within other areas? Is forensic anthropology a large field? In Canada, it's quite small and difficult to get into.

It differs from country to country. There are two main branches of forensic anthropology where practitioners come from: the anatomically-trained forensic anthropologists and the archaeologically-trained forensic anthropologists.

In some countries the work is done exclusively by forensic pathologists. In others they work together in teams.

Ireland's situation is similar to Canada in the sense that it is extremely difficult to get into. It is a very small playing field here, would be bigger in the UK though.

Dr. Astronaut

I find it odd that here and in the UK, there is a separation like that within the field. In Canada, you'd be trained to work from crime scene to lab to courtroom. Do you think that dividing the field work from the lab work creates room for error, or leaves gaps between what is collected in the field and what is required in the lab? I'm probably quite biased, and I mean absolutely no offense, but I'd think it works better to have one person (or one team) working a case from beginning to end, so there's no disconnection. What are your thoughts?

Dr Strange

Dr. Astronaut wrote: »

I find it odd that here and in the UK, there is a separation like that within the field. In Canada, you'd be trained to work from crime scene to lab to courtroom. Do you think that dividing the field work from the lab work creates room for error, or leaves gaps between what is collected in the field and what is required in the lab? I'm probably quite biased, and I mean absolutely no offense, but I'd think it works better to have one person (or one team) working a case from beginning to end, so there's no disconnection. What are your thoughts?

I see where you are coming from but my opinion would be that an anatomically trained FA has usually more experience with all tissues of the body and can therefore bring other skills to the table than an archaeologically trained anthropologist. Particularly when it comes to mutilated, burned, decomposed or otherwise disrupted remains. That doesn;t mean he/she can't be trained in archaeological recovery methods. Similarily, not all forensic archaeologists are also trained in physical anthropology and concentrated solely on the discovery and recovery of human remains. John Hunter would be an expert on this over in the UK.
I have heard quite often that archaeologically trained FA's do not like the anatomically trained FA's. I wonder why that is, do they feel threatened? Keeping in mind that most physical anthropological methods actually originated in Anatomy Depts and were researched by anatomists who were at the same time physical anthropologists.

Dundee is very big on anatomically trained FA's. A lot of dissection on actual bodies goes into the first 4 years of their undergraduate FA degree followed by research methods etc during their MSc and finally attaining professional standing with a PhD.

From what I have heard the new accrediation will cater for both FA types as long as they can demonstrate use of up-to-date techniques, annual case work (here's a stumbling block for many already as they have no access to case work), periodical examinations, publications in international peer-reviewed journals, etc. The archaeologists have their own standardisation and accreditation in the UK and the excavation etc would not fall within the remit of the FA accreditation body but the archaeology accreditation body.

So there is already a separation of excavation/recovery and human ID methods which will (to my knowledge) not be reversed.

Dr. Astronaut

It’s interesting to see how different the fields and the training are between here and Canada. I love learning about the field and how it works, especially since I really miss forensics. Preusse, you know a lot about it – this must be your field.
In Canada (and the USA), we’re trained in archaeology, physical and forensic anthropology. That breadth continues from the undergraduate level through the graduate level as well. For instance, in the beginning of my undergraduate degree, we studied all subfields of anthropology (sociocultural, linguistic, biological, physical, forensic) before being able to focus more in the final few years of the degree. Specializing in forensics, I still had to take archaeological analysis, human osteology (including skeletal anatomy with muscle attachments, markers of occupational stress, identification of fragmentary remains), and forensics, which ran the gamut from search methods to identification of a clandestine grave, to crime scene processing, identification of remains, and testifying and evidence presentation. It was really good, but it’s quite intense to have to learn how to do everything in a case, from locating the grave to testifying in court and everything in between.
Preusse, you mentioned that people have no access to casework – why is that? How is case work divided?

Dr Strange

You see, there is a difference to the European system of archaeology and anthropology and the North American and Canadian systems. As you said archaeology and social as well as linguistic anthropology and physical anthropology are all part of one system whilst this is different here (in Europe in general).

Casework in Ireland is extremely limited first of all by number of cases and also by access. The State Pathologists examines rremains on behalf of the investigation gardai and the Coroners. They also make the call on who else will have access to the case (anthropologist, entymologist, archaeologist etc). Best advise for anyone looking for casework experience from Ireland would be to go on international call-outs and be available to work internationally.

Dr. Astronaut

My ignorance knows no bounds! I didn't realize that archaeology isn't really considered part of anthropology the way it is at home. That's too bad, I feel they really compliment each other.
Casework can be really hard to come by in Canada, too, even though it's such a large country; I guess that's a good thing - we don't often find remains that are degraded enough to require anthropological analysis. A lot of cases turn out to be animal remains that look like human bone - it's surprising how easy it is to mistake a bear for a person once the soft tissue is gone. Is there a system in place here for how casework is assigned, or can the Pathologist choose whomever s/he wants to call for consultation on a case? Do most forensic anthropologists work across Europe? Isn't there any jurisdictional concern, or rule for FAs being brought in from outside a given country?

Dr Strange

Dr. Astronaut wrote: »

My ignorance knows no bounds! I didn't realize that archaeology isn't really considered part of anthropology the way it is at home. That's too bad, I feel they really compliment each other.
Casework can be really hard to come by in Canada, too, even though it's such a large country; I guess that's a good thing - we don't often find remains that are degraded enough to require anthropological analysis. A lot of cases turn out to be animal remains that look like human bone - it's surprising how easy it is to mistake a bear for a person once the soft tissue is gone. Is there a system in place here for how casework is assigned, or can the Pathologist choose whomever s/he wants to call for consultation on a case? Do most forensic anthropologists work across Europe? Isn't there any jurisdictional concern, or rule for FAs being brought in from outside a given country?

We have a similar issue here with seal remains being mistaken for human hands etc. And most cases are actually nonhuman remains as well, I suppose the majority of cases around the world are.

The State Pathologist Office has an anthropologist/archaeologist they utilise for their cases.

By working internationally I rather meant to sign up with organisations that go out in mass disaster situations and/or mass graves/human right violations, such as Kenyon International, CIFA, INFORCE, Physicians for Human Rights etc.