Hunting

RussellTuring

I don't know if this is the appropriate place for this and it may have been raised before, but a couple of days ago I was on facebook and in my stream saw that someone with whom I had a mutual friend posted a photo of a rabbit he'd shot while hunting.

Now, of course, I'm sure the vast majority of you would dislike the idea of hunting but it got me thinking: is it worse to kill an animal yourself or to get a prepackaged chicken in Tesco and pretend it's just any other food, like a loaf of bread? Hunters at least recognise that they took a life to have their meal whereas most people nowadays can just eat animals guilt-free. Is it worse to get pleasure from the killing or not to acknowledge you had any part in it?

Tar.Aldarion

A lot of vegetarians have problems merely with how the animals are treated. To me hunting would be more acceptable if there wasn't an abundance of meat anyway. Eating meat won't be stopping any time soon so if they wanted to be more 'ethical' about it it would be preferable to be putting money into the organic production of meat, as where the money goes determines what kind of treatment animals will be getting. If people buy more meat organically, there is less demand for battery, although that can be said of hunting, the producers do not see the money going to the better treated animals so why change. Personally I wouldn't see either as desirable with hunting more acceptable if you need the food to live, with mass production never being acceptable.

RussellTuring

Yeah I personally think that hunting isn't really justifiable given how easy it is to get meat and is probably worse because people are doing it mainly for fun. Then again, I don't really think it's justifiable to eat meat at all, since it is obviously possible to live without it!

Tar.Aldarion

Certainly in the western world I never think it is acceptable, dunno if I could say that about an Inuit etc.

RussellTuring

Yeah I should have made myself clearer. I think we in the West have the option of doing it but of course in other countries it might not be possible.

Absurdum

Harming and/or killing animals is wrong, end of.

Jim

Most of the time they're not hunting to provide food, but rather for the recreational pleasure it gives them (The whole hunt experience, not just killing the animal).

anothernight

I consider meat eating completely natural to humans regardless of whether we need to do it or not, so if hunting was done solely for the purpose of getting meat, I'd prefer it over factory farming because at least people are more aware of where their food is coming from, and if done right the animal suffers less (as in, it's not a lifetime of being in cages, etc). The reason why I don't think hunting is right anyway is that it's done mostly as a recreational activity, not as a means to get food.


I don't have much respect for people who eat meat but could never kill the animal whose meat they're going to eat.

Whispered

I have more respect for a hunter killing his food, than I do someone bragging over getting a chicken in tesco half price or something. A natural, free life, a sporting chance, hands on understanding of how, where, when the animal died, and the majority of the time a healthy respect for the life taken. A hell of a lot more work goes into say a rabbit stew or a roast phesant, than into a sunday roast.

I'm veggie largely due to my father making sure I knew exactly where the food on our table came from. I grew up with game on the table as often as bought meats, it was often the only way they could ensure we had a full and healthy meal in harder times. I would prefer to see neither to be honest, but if someone is a meat eater, If I was given the choice, natural hunted meat would win out for me easily every time.

I know this might be a controversial pov

entropi

I would see hunting these days, in First and some Second World countries as mostly non-necessary due to the production techniques available like batteries and farms that overproduce as it is. Hunting itself should be a viable means of food for meat eaters if this planet wasn't overpopulated and population bases were not as centralised, but sadly, this is not the case. In areas of the world where it's pretty much necessary to hunt in order to survive, then I can accept that and they absolutely value the life they have taken.

All it is to many who practice it is a "sport", and it's these so called "hunt lodges" and their members that do irritate me as they don't see it for what it is, barbaric and totally cruel to the animals they chase...that ultimately die in fear:( And in some small way, I would admire those folk in America etc who eat roadkill...the animal had no chance in it's death and that life taken should go towards others staying alive if it is free from disease.

pmac77

with me anyway when i go hunting i respect my quarry, i co not kill for the sake of killing, i hunt with gun, dogs and hounds. any game that is killed for me is eaten by me.

Whispered

Master of Nothing wrote: »

I would see hunting these days, in First and some Second World countries as mostly non-necessary due to the production techniques available like batteries and farms that overproduce as it is.

In most cases it is totally unnecessary. (although I do know a good few in the older generation who supplement what little they have by hunting their meat). But some people find certain farming practises distasteful and make a decision to eat game instead. Free range meat is hugely expensive. I suppose you have to commend the fact that they took the time to think about it instead of blindly heading into a shop and buying something.

In an ideal world people would care more about where their food comes from, I think that hunting and eating game is a step in that direction.

CJhaughey

I am not a veggie so this is a one sided point of view.
I hunt for the table, I very rarely shoot anyting that I won't eat but there have been exceptions such as the odd fox or rat that were causing problems.
The main animals I would eat would be Deer and rabbits.
Deer have no predators in Ireland, the only way they can be controlled by man is to shoot them. Weather does play a part occassionally as can be seen from the recent snows where they came down from high ground to feed on grass that was accessible.
Hunters are performing a necessary job, You could also state that most hunters enjoy hunting otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Overpopulation of any animals leads to overgrazing and the associated problems of starvation and disease, neither of which are nice ways to die.
I would be of the opinion that I have a much greater awareness of an animals life than someone who has just wandered into a shop and bought a plastic wrapped piece of flesh from a counter.
The process a hunter goes through to put a piece of meat on a table is the complete process of stalking, shooting, gutting, skinning, butchering and cooking plus all the small steps inbetween.
I contend therefore that a hunter is doing exactly what man has always done since time immemorial and is driven by the same impulses and urges that man has always been subject to.
Humans wouldn't be in the position they are in now without an availability of protein from hunting.

sweet-rasmus

Our OP is looking for opinions of vegetarians/vegans in particular here, having posted in the vegan and vegetarian forum. I would therefore ask that any active hunters stick to the hunting forum. (copied into OP)

CJhaughey

Ok point made, I read the charter and assumed that anyone could post here.
:rolleyes:

Tar.Aldarion

Yes you are, as is the rule across boards, this is a discussion forum and as long as people post within the rules they are welcome. If people have different opinions others can't just throw toys out of the pram, put across you opinion too. I'm sure both sides have opinions distressing to the other, make your points in a calm fashion and the thread will continue, otherwise I will close it. This thread is discussing hunting and was made by a vegetarian that wants to discuss this. I see nothing wrong here, continue.

RussellTuring

While I in no way want to censor anyone, I was looking for the opinions of vegetarians, hence my posting in this forum. I do, however, appreciate the former Taoiseach taking time out of his retirement to make a detailed post.

Tar.Aldarion

Perfectly reasonable to ask here looking for those opinions, and when posting, people have made clear their stances. However this is a forum about vegetarianism, not a forum for merely vegetarians, there is a big difference. All are welcome as is a rule all across boards. There are even vegetarians who hunt themselves. I for one welcome all shady politians that keep within the rules I made with shabadu. In fact previous moderators weren't even vegetarian themselves and have no need to be.

If anybody wants to discuss this feel free to PM me. Now back to the elusive topic chaps.

Tar.Aldarion

CJhaughey wrote: »

I contend therefore that a hunter is doing exactly what man has always done since time immemorial and is driven by the same impulses and urges that man has always been subject to.
Humans wouldn't be in the position they are in now without an availability of protein from hunting.

The same impulses that lead us to kill one another? Rape? There are base instincts that are within us but that does not mean they are right, with our evolution and increased intelligence comes a greater understanding of who and what we are, and the increased ability to resist base instincts that should be removed from us. I would think that by this stage we would be outside the food chain of simpler animals with our intelligence and should be more custodians and carers for simpler animals than mass producing and killing them when we do not need to. With our power comes responsibility.

I am sure protein from meat helped us get where we are today but we have reached the stage where we no longer need it, being a hunter gatherer a million years ago really has no bearing on what we do today, there is no need for that any more. I mean at this point there is already real meat being grown in labs, maybe even that will one day replace meat for people. We evolve based on what we eat, we should not eat based on how we evolved.

Tar.Aldarion

Just gonna delete your first post as you now have an on topic one Gerry, thanks.

Gerry.L

Well I suppose she thinks its better because the wild animals have had a "happy" life. And they weren't born into a factory and pumped full of chemicals. That was another issue for her (a huge issue actually).

She believes that she knows exactly what shes eating and its healthier (my own thoughts are that shes wrong, since those rabbits are probably eating chemical sprayed crops but sure thats for a different thread).

Oh and Im a hunter, always have being, so like the op asked, its probably better that I keep my opinions to myself. I dont think I'll ever fully understand your (a vegans) way of thinking.

mawk

I dont hunt, but I do fish. I love eating fresh fish and intend to continue, however I very seldom eat fish I havent caught myself as I dont agree with commercial fishing policies (nor the long time between net and plate).

naturally part of my fishing choice is that I like fishing, but I could in all logic just buy my fish at the fishmongers. I see the opinion that hunting is unnecessary in today's world in a few of the above posts and struggle to accept that as a valid argument. not being a survival requirement does not make something a bad choice. I can guarantee that any fish/crustaceans I take home are seasonal, sustainably caught and eaten. I can say none of the above three for any fishmongers.

Mark Hamill

CJhaughey wrote: »

I contend therefore that a hunter is doing exactly what man has always done since time immemorial and is driven by the same impulses and urges that man has always been subject to.

Well until someone first did them, man never cured diseases and never got to the moon.

CJhaughey wrote: »

Humans wouldn't be in the position they are in now without an availability of protein from hunting.

And humans will never advance and improve if they just keep going on the exact same way they always do.

What you have here is fallacious rhetoric, nice sounding nonsense that in reality would retard all human progress. Even just in terms of diets, during a single humans lifetime, the dietary needs naturally change. Those needs can adapt to whats available in the enviroment too (given enough time). There is no inherent need to follow one type of diet simply because our ancestors did it.

RussellTuring

Gerry.L wrote: »

Well I suppose she thinks its better because the wild animals have had a "happy" life. And they weren't born into a factory and pumped full of chemicals. That was another issue for her (a huge issue actually).

She believes that she knows exactly what shes eating and its healthier (my own thoughts are that shes wrong, since those rabbits are probably eating chemical sprayed crops but sure thats for a different thread).

Oh and Im a hunter, always have being, so like the op asked, its probably better that I keep my opinions to myself. I dont think I'll ever fully understand your (a vegans) way of thinking.

When did I ask this? I said that I was looking for the opinions of vegetarians. I also said I didn't want to censor anyone. The best way to understand someone else's POV is to talk with them.

loueuro2

ok so i think hunting is terrible, how can anyone say its ok to run and shoot a terrified animal and then eat it, what forum is this?
what about the horse/hound hunt, running after foxes and then watching while the poor terrified fox is ripped and torn to death, this is not right there should be a ban on all hunting. if it can be done to animals why cant we go hunt and kill people!!!

Whispered

loueuro2 wrote: »

what forum is this?

I think it's great to see this discussion allowed here. I think it shows how openminded people are and how willing most people are to have a constructive conversation

loueuro2 wrote: »

how can anyone say its ok to run and shoot a terrified animal and then eat it

Yeah I agree, it's awful. But the lesser of 2 evils in my opinion. Say you're in someones house, they eat meat, as a guest you're going to be polite and not comment on your opinion on meat, you're also going to sit at the same table and have your (veg*n) food. Would you prefer to see game meat on the table, or bought meat? Why?

loueuro2 wrote: »

what about the horse/hound hunt, running after foxes and then watching while the poor terrified fox is ripped and torn to death

Yes I agree. It is different from shooting for food, that is nothing but death for the sake of sport . I'm not sure if the op was talking about sport hunting though.

loueuro2 wrote: »

this is not right there should be a ban on all hunting

while that would be really nice, it would be a difficult thing to implement. As I mentioned, I know many from the older generation who supplement their food with meat they have hunted. While most people don't do it through necessity like that, an all out ban would effect them. Also, take deer for instance, their numbers are difficult to control as they have no natural predators here. I would like to see a neutering scheme to control the population rather than culls, (I don't know if this is possible, I'm no expert) but as it stands, it has to be done. I think it's great if their meat can then be used.

I would also much prefer to see rabbits hunted to control the population than the last large scale attempt of population control which resulted in many rabbits dying in agony from mixo.

loueuro2 wrote: »

if it can be done to animals why cant we go hunt and kill people!!!

Because it's against the law.

Cherry Blossom

I've just hopped into this thread to offer a perspective that hasn't appeared yet

Is it not better to have all sorts of perspectives on issues like this? If for no other reason so you know the other side of the story, opinions have no weight behind them unless there are opposing opinions to disagree with.
I eat meat but I cannot even stomach the smell of anything even remotely gamey (including farmed duck).

Master of Nothing wrote: »

All it is to many who practice it is a "sport", and it's these so called "hunt lodges" and their members that do irritate me as they don't see it for what it is, barbaric and totally cruel to the animals they chase...that ultimately die in fear:(

I'm a member of a hunting club, I drag hunt, do I irritate you just from making this statement? I'm not involved in the chasing or killing of any live quarry. The only animals that are injured is the occasional human that hits the ground

loueuro2 wrote: »

what about the horse/hound hunt, running after foxes and then watching while the poor terrified fox is ripped and torn to death, this is not right there should be a ban on all hunting. if it can be done to animals why cant we go hunt and kill people!!!

This is the tradition that my sport is based on, however you would be hard pressed to find a 'traditional' fox hunt in this country, it is unnecessary to use foxes. The more common drag hunt basically involves one or two people pulling a drag from horseback across the countryside. The drag is made of sacking steeped in human urine to create the 'scent'. This scent has proven to be the most effective and I've never known a hound to go off course to follow a live scent due to it's effectiveness. I would not be the least bit interested in live fox hunting for many reasons. There is no need for it and with the drag the route is determined by humans meaning any terrain that might be hazardous to the horses or hounds can be avoided. I would not take my horse out in countryside through shrubbery or to jump barbed wire fences and this is completely avoidable in drag hunting.

Do you not think that alternatives like this are a better option than banning all hunting which would lead people to persue these activititys illegally? I would like to see a lot more gun dog trials going on in this country which allow people who want to work their dogs and satisfy the instincts that have been bred into them for generations with the use of synthetic scents, if things like this were more widespread these sports would be available to a lot more people and the actual kill is not the point of it for a lot of the people that hunt.

RussellTuring

Thanks for that adrenalinejunkie. I'd never heard of drag hunting before. It seems like something those who like hunting can do without necessarily involving the death of an animal. But, adrenalinejunkie, do you eat meat? And if you do, do you find shop-bought meat easier to palate than animals which you've killed yourself?

Oroel

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

The same impulses that lead us to kill one another? Rape? There are base instincts that are within us but that does not mean they are right, with our evolution and increased intelligence comes a greater understanding of who and what we are, and the increased ability to resist base instincts that should be removed from us. I would think that by this stage we would be outside the food chain of simpler animals with our intelligence and should be more custodians and carers for simpler animals than mass producing and killing them when we do not need to. With our power comes responsibility.

I am sure protein from meat helped us get where we are today but we have reached the stage where we no longer need it, being a hunter gatherer a million years ago really has no bearing on what we do today, there is no need for that any more. I mean at this point there is already real meat being grown in labs, maybe even that will one day replace meat for people. We evolve based on what we eat, we should not eat based on how we evolved.

the desire to rape is not a base instinct. maybe research things before you randomly say stuff off the top of your head.

Tar.Aldarion

LOL, good input. Perhaps post on topic instead of pointing out particular example that do not matter in the slightest to the point. Also I said lead to, mmm reading skills.

Mark Hamill

loueuro2 wrote: »

ok so i think hunting is terrible, how can anyone say its ok to run and shoot a terrified animal and then eat it, what forum is this?
what about the horse/hound hunt, running after foxes and then watching while the poor terrified fox is ripped and torn to death, this is not right there should be a ban on all hunting. if it can be done to animals why cant we go hunt and kill people!!!

You are mixing sport hunting (fox hunting) and food hunting. I dont, and doubt most people here, approve of sport hunting, where multiple people with dogs and horses harrow and esentially torture an animal to death as a hobby. But I do see a difference between this and people who hunt animals for food, who kill deer/fish/etc quickly without necessarily meaning to cause the animals massive amounts of distress.

I am also not blind to the fact that there are animals that need to be culled off from time to time, otherwise there numbers could become a problem to their enviroment or other animals.

Cherry Blossom

RussellTuring wrote: »

Thanks for that adrenalinejunkie. I'd never heard of drag hunting before. It seems like something those who like hunting can do without necessarily involving the death of an animal. But, adrenalinejunkie, do you eat meat? And if you do, do you find shop-bought meat easier to palate than animals which you've killed yourself?

Yes I do eat meat but I can't give you an answer to this as I have never killed an animal myself, I don't see how me killing it would affect it's palatability. I always try to eat ethically raised meat but as I said I don't eat anything remotely gamey and would have issues with the lack of regulation on how its prepared for human consumption. Livestock have to be humanely killed and prepared for human consumption by someone with a licence to do so and this is heavily regulated. I'm under no illusions where my food comes from, I was born and raised on a farm and have worked in the meat industry (although in an administrative context).