Throwing up the head when asked to stop

silverfox88

My lovely 15.2 mare is responsive, forward-going and quite well-schooled. I'm hoping to do some dressage on her at some level this year as she has super paces, a good grasp of lateral work/flying changes etc and carries herself in a lovely outline - 99% of the time! She is quite strong and forward going and when i ask for a downward transition, particularly from canter, she sets her jaw and resists, bringing her head up out of her outline and practically cantering on the spot when in canter, and refusing to come back smoothly to walk from trot and jogging instead. she's not like this ALL the time, just too much of the time for me to ignore it! She's ridden in a D-ring snaffle and a grakle noseband. I don't have any issues with control, i can always stop her when i want to, its more that i would like her to stop and slow down NICELY!!

anyone any ideas on how to help fix this?!

s-cogan

relax your hands when asking the mare to stop, and apply the tension again. dont keep continuous pressure on her mouth.

this should help.

its like this

just sit back more nd pull on reins. eventually shell stop as soon as u sit deep nd u wont need to pull on eins if u do this instruction correctly

convert

its like this wrote: »

just sit back more nd pull on reins. eventually shell stop as soon as u sit deep nd u wont need to pull on eins if u do this instruction correctly

Please try to remember not to use 'text speak' when posting in this forum. Thanks.

byhookorbycrook

Might be worth having her teeth checked too.

silverfox88

yeah going to get teeth checked again but she had them done recently enough.
its more stubbornness than anything i think!! sitting back and pulling on the reins is fighting a losing battle to be honest, she will stop, but as i said its not really the actual stopping thats the problem its the way that she stops!

convert

Have you checked the bit is fitting properly? Sometimes a horse will throw their head up like that if the bit is pinching or hitting the roof of their mouth.

I had a horse who hated any broken bit, so I had to use a straight rubber snaffle on her for everything, and her head movement improved hugely.

bullylover

Have u had her back checked? Could be something as simple as a tight muscle and a good specalist could release it and you'll be in the ribbons!!
I have two girls i use can pm u the number extremely good and not expensive.
I owe alot of my successes to them:)

shanagarry

It sounds to me like it might just be freshness? Does she settle and work better when you have had her out for a while? Maybe something as simple as giving her a few minutes on the lunge before you ride her might help? You could also try lunging her in side reins and try and counteract the problem from the ground as you often have more control as she will effectively be pulling against herself and will give up on that fairly quickly and the side reins will stop her throwing her head up. Obviously you need to introduce them gradually, and tighten them up gradually if she isn't used to them.

Other than that, I would work on using your seat more to control her. With work, you should be able to bring her back 90% with your seat, just using your hands to half halt and then provider resistance to forward movement, rather than pulling her back. You're never going to win a pulling battle with a horse.

If none of the above are working, I would consider looking again at her bit/noseband combo. It's just trial and error really - a softer bit may work, but don't be afraid of trying stronger bits either. With a well schooled horse and a competent rider with light hands, a stronge bit often works very well, as one can ride with very light hands most of the time, knowing that very little pressure on the reins can yield good results. I switched my mare from an eggbutt snaffle to an american gag (prob not an option for you due to the dressage ambitions) and never looked back. She was a dream to ride in it and came on in leaps and bounds, and got so soft on the hands, where as previously she used to lean on the bit sometimes.

silverfox88

bullylover, that would be great if you wouldnt mind, might as well keep all the options open!

it's not really freshness as she's practically dozy when she first starts working, its literally after you first canter her she starts playing up, she just wants to keep cantering, leans on my hands in trot and is a general pain in the ass.

she's very clever as well and im wondering is she just running to avoid having to work on the flat - she's a different horse jumping, but im wondering is that just because she likes jumping and is just being a brat on the flat to avoid having to do it?!

i want to try out a few bit/noseband combinations as well - american gag would probably save my arms but wont help my dressage ambitions
tried her in my pelham, which is just a metal straight-mouth one, and she was fine, no objections, but she still leaned on my hands! has anyone used those revolver bits? i looked at a D-ring snaffle one, happy mouth, and each side moves independently of the other - the woman in homestead said it should stop her leaning, but i've heard they're something to do with the action of the horses shoulder??

thanks for all the help so far, keep it coming, its great to have different points of view!

ell

Agree on the teeth. After that work on a soft halt & learning to give to pressure, soft back up, forequarter yields and sidepassing. All will soften her body and get her off the forehand. After this, go back and work on the walk, and analyse whats going on. You'll often find smaller versions of issues in fast work here as well.

elusiveguy

We tried the revolver bit on the same advise and the horse stretched my arms by about six inches, The bit seems to encourage leaning. If its just evasion, maybe try schooling the horse to pay better heed to weight transfer, walk to halt transitions by just leaning back then trot to walk if you can etc

If its a more violent reaction maybe she has a low pallet and might go better in a french link?

Also a Kineton or a standing martingale might help to break her of the head throwing so you can work on the brakes.

silverfox88

elusiveguy wrote: »

We tried the revolver bit on the same advise and the horse stretched my arms by about six inches, The bit seems to encourage leaning. If its just evasion, maybe try schooling the horse to pay better heed to weight transfer, walk to halt transitions by just leaning back then trot to walk if you can etc

If its a more violent reaction maybe she has a low pallet and might go better in a french link?

Also a Kineton or a standing martingale might help to break her of the head throwing so you can work on the brakes.

i've given the walk to halt transitions from the seat a try, they do help and it feels like great achievement every time!! only thing is as she is worked more she starts to stop listening to my seat. interesting about the revolver bits, ill give them a miss so! funnily enough, she went quite well in a straight bar pelham that i have, leaned a lot less, but i dont really want to have to resort to riding her in a pelham as i have a girl sharing her and im a bit paranoid about anyone other than me using a strong bit on her, just dont want it to be used in the wrong way if you get me! and obviously cant have me riding her in a pelham and then her taking the absolute p**s when she's ridden in a snaffle!!

Esroh

silverfox88 wrote: »

i've given the walk to halt transitions from the seat a try, they do help and it feels like great achievement every time!! only thing is as she is worked more she starts to stop listening to my seat. interesting about the revolver bits, ill give them a miss so! funnily enough, she went quite well in a straight bar pelham that i have, leaned a lot less, but i dont really want to have to resort to riding her in a pelham as i have a girl sharing her and im a bit paranoid about anyone other than me using a strong bit on her, just dont want it to be used in the wrong way if you get me! and obviously cant have me riding her in a pelham and then her taking the absolute p**s when she's ridden in a snaffle!!

If your in an arena as she starts to ignore you think about the halt as you enter corner off the long side so to use the walls/fence as a natural break and rather than actually stop her ride her thru the corner(A half Halt) and then halt at the next one. You have to keep 1 step ahead once she starts to get loose interest in actually working with you. On the long side throw in a shallow loop or 2 with a half halt just to keep her thinking.
The above will also work for Walk to Trot though for Trot to Canter circles are prob best.
Repetition can be frustrating for the rider but its the best way for Both of you to get it right longterm;)

elusiveguy

silverfox88 wrote: »

i've given the walk to halt transitions from the seat a try, they do help and it feels like great achievement every time!! only thing is as she is worked more she starts to stop listening to my seat. interesting about the revolver bits, ill give them a miss so! funnily enough, she went quite well in a straight bar pelham that i have, leaned a lot less, but i dont really want to have to resort to riding her in a pelham as i have a girl sharing her and im a bit paranoid about anyone other than me using a strong bit on her, just dont want it to be used in the wrong way if you get me! and obviously cant have me riding her in a pelham and then her taking the absolute p**s when she's ridden in a snaffle!!

An interesting one we've dealt with; A stallion my OH rides, when she started he was in a 3 ring on the bottom ring, he started running through that and we moved to a rubber pelham, same thing, metal pelham and 99.9% of the time he'd do as asked but he'd never really engage with the bit if you know what I mean. As an experiment, we tried a hanging cheek french link and he was much much better, so then onto a loose ring french link. He's 100% obedient in it and engages quite well.

BUT he is 100% in everyway on a happy mouth. This is a horse that could be completely out of control in a 3 ring. Unfortunately he chews on bits and he gets through a happy mouth in one session

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes a horse will fight a bit because its too much, if you go up you'll dominate them compelely but if you go down the horse will engage with you and your hand properly and ye can work together properly

Our next stop is a Neue Schule Verbinender yokey

loopyloulilly

Hi Silverfox,

When you asking her to stop, sit deep in the saddle, legs back to where you would ask for canter. Slowly pull on the reins. Don't jerk her mouth. This is probably why she is throwing her head up, to resist the bit.

Hope this helps.

silverfox88

elusive guy, thats a very interesting point! its funny actually because in terms of engaging, i watched someone i know change their horse from a ported kimblewick in to a snaffle the other day - the horse is, as you say, dominated somewhat in the kimblewick - it works with its head down but not tracking up behind and when the horse was changed to the snaffle, went back to nose in the air!! i have her back in her D-ring snaffle at the moment and ive found through use of some of the tips from above along with trial and error that she's now maintaining her outline in downward transitions much better most of the time.

so now i'm just back to combating the leaning! if tried riding her into my hands with my seat to encourage her to use her back end. the thing is though that while she leans, she's not really on the forehand - its more like she's setting her neck and jaw against me when i ask her to stop. also, took her jumping last weekend and she couldnt have been more angelic - perfectly on the bit and as light as a feather in my hands!! cant figure her out at all!!

Esroh

silverfox88 wrote: »

elusive guy, thats a very interesting point! its funny actually because in terms of engaging, i watched someone i know change their horse from a ported kimblewick in to a snaffle the other day - the horse is, as you say, dominated somewhat in the kimblewick - it works with its head down but not tracking up behind and when the horse was changed to the snaffle, went back to nose in the air!! i have her back in her D-ring snaffle at the moment and ive found through use of some of the tips from above along with trial and error that she's now maintaining her outline in downward transitions much better most of the time.

so now i'm just back to combating the leaning! if tried riding her into my hands with my seat to encourage her to use her back end. the thing is though that while she leans, she's not really on the forehand - its more like she's setting her neck and jaw against me when i ask her to stop. also, took her jumping last weekend and she couldnt have been more angelic - perfectly on the bit and as light as a feather in my hands!! cant figure her out at all!!

SF not being sexist or meaning any offence to the fairer sex but thats what mares do:D Great thing about them is that when you do figure her out all will be well.

silverfox88

Esroh wrote: »

SF not being sexist or meaning any offence to the fairer sex but thats what mares do:D Great thing about them is that when you do figure her out all will be well.

verrrry true, stroppy little madam that she is - sometimes i really do think she just believes i am the biggest idiot and is just tolerating me - barely