Is the Irish Medical Profession Altruistic?

MLH1

Is the Irish Medical Profession Altruistic?

Son Of A Vidic

Is this the right forum for this?

steddyeddy

wrll to some degree they are

bigwormbundoran

Is it fúck

Giselle

Yes, because barring perversion there's no other good reason why you'd be willing to brave looking at someone's piles.

I think most docs are motivated by an interest in science and an interest in helping others.

Altruism (pronounced /ˈæltruːɪzəm/) is selfless concern for the welfare of others

I'm gonna say DEFINITELY NOT!

Cheap Thrills!

Giselle wrote: »

Yes, because barring perversion there's no other good reason why you'd be willing to brave looking at someone's piles.

What about filthy lucre?

Giselle wrote: »

I think most docs are motivated by an interest in science and an interest in helping others.

and filthy lucre.

Sauve

I don't see the point of this thread....

cassid

varies.

Have met some wonderful people in the medical profession. Have met a few money hungry feckers as well.

When I hand over my €4,500 obstetrician fees, altruistic was not the word that comes to my mind.

Kiera

Its all very serious in here today!

davo10

cassid wrote: »

varies.

Have met some wonderful people in the medical profession. Have met a few money hungry feckers as well.

When I hand over my €4,500 obstetrician fees, altruistic was not the word that comes to my mind.

It's probably the peace of mind you get knowing that an expert specialist is looking after you and your child or is it the 20 years of study the obs had to do just to be in a position to be there for you?, maybe the €100k per year insurance they have to pay just to practice?, when I handed it over I thought this may well be the best money I ever spend and I prayed that the Obs did not have to do a lot to earn it.

No one does medicine for the money, would you consider this situation altruistic? and ask your self if you could do it:

A GP/A&E doctor/surgeon has to go in to a room where a family wait anxiously for news about a loved one, you explain that despite your staffs best efforts and the brave fight the patient put up, his/her injuries were too great and he/she passed away. You tell them again that their parent/spouse/child is dead and in a split second you watch their life fall apart, you sympathise with them then leave the room, take a moment to compose yourself and then go back to work trying to heal people and save lives, do you think anyone else in that room is going back to work?

No amount of money could be enough for this and I know no Doctor who does it purely for a pay check, so definately there is some altruism.

Firetrap

So people swot like crazy in their Leaving Certs to get 900 points to do medicine just so that they can get a warm fuzzy feeling in their tummies each time they help a patient? :rolleyes:

Chuchoter

Anybody recently looked at the salaries for normal doctors (not consultants or GPs)? They work insane hours, get paid less than minimum wage and have awful working conditions. Its not selfish to expect to be paid fairly for a hard job that took years and years of studying to qualify for.

Giselle

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

What about filthy lucre?

There are easier ways to make money that don't involve looking after old peoples feet, cutting up dead bodies or getting covered in vomit, or being blamed for not knowing everything immediately after 48 hours with no sleep.

Or studying like a robot through secondary school, studying like a robot through years of medical school, working 90 hour weeks for low pay, and being derided in the media constantly.

No, I'm not a doc and I wouldn't be for any money.

Oh_Noes

Having been in hospital and requiring outpatient treatment for a long period of time, I would say that a lot of them most certainly are altruistic. The work that nurses do (well the nurses I've experienced) is deserving of far more than they're paid.

Oranage2

I might be wrong here but my guess is that every individual is different and some might go into the profesion to help others, some might do it for the money, some might have family pressure to do it and others do it for the lolz

RichieC

As long as they do their jobs, help sick people recover, I really see no need in caring what their agenda is.

Oh_Noes

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Having been in hospital and requiring outpatient treatment for a long period of time, I would say that a lot of them most certainly are altruistic. The work that nurses do (well the nurses I've experienced) is deserving of far more than they're paid.

not the nurses I could hear slagging off my exceedingly sick mother from the nurse's station. Only she was so sick I didn't want to leave her side, and she was bawling about what they were saying about her, otherwise I would have smacked each one of those lazy, mean b*tches

Firetrap

I think though that the sort of medics who spring to mind for most of us are the consultants who charge €150 for a 10 minute consultation or the GPs who are €50 or €60 a pop.

MLH1

We don't think of the NCHD's working their balls off, for no respect, job security, huge salary or work-life balance.

minidazzler

They aren't supposed to be altruistic. It's not charity, it's a job.

davo10

Firetrap wrote: »

I think though that the sort of medics who spring to mind for most of us are the consultants who charge €150 for a 10 minute consultation or the GPs who are €50 or €60 a pop.

Everyone has a right to avail/not to avail of medical services, if you do not want to pay, don't go. I'm pretty certain that if you are on the public waiting list for a consultant you do not have to pay anywhere near €150, only if you go privately.

MysticalRain

I dealt with at least a dozen doctors during the last few years trying to sort out a leg injury. From my experience, I would say the majority of doctors I encountered displayed little or no altruism and were basically in it for the money. It seemed to me that the more money doctors were paid, the less altruistic they tend to be. I often wonder if the high leaving cert points requirement/money/status etc tends to attract the wrong kinds of people to the profession.

davo10

MysticalRain wrote: »

I dealt with at least a dozen doctors during the last few years trying to sort out a leg injury. From my experience, I would say the majority of doctors I encountered displayed little or no altruism and were basically in it for the money. It seemed to me that the more money doctors were paid, the less altruistic they tend to be. I often wonder if the high leaving cert points requirement/money/status etc tends to attract the wrong kinds of people to the profession.

That's a lot of doctors and a lot of fees, most family Doctors would not charge you 12 times for the same problem, if you went to different Doctors each time, of course you have to pay and I'm guessing a lot of those were consultants, whats your evidence that they were only interested in the money? please do not say "because they charge €150 for 10 mins", again you could go public and wait for an apointment which would cost less.

As for the points, I think we all agree that the Leaving Cert has its flaws but it is a good indicator of intelligence/aptitude/problem solving. If a student is unable to get high points in LC then its likely they would struggle with medical exams, also when my kids are sick I want the best and brightest Doctor available.

sollar

Some are caring people who will go out of their way to help but mostly they are more concerned with money and not making mistakes (and suffering professional embarassment) imo.

MysticalRain

davo10 wrote: »

That's a lot of doctors and a lot of fees, most family Doctors would not charge you 12 times for the same problem, if you went to different Doctors each time, of course you have to pay and I'm guessing a lot of those were consultants, whats your evidence that they were only interested in the money? please do not say "because they charge €150 for 10 mins", again you could go public and wait for an apointment which would cost less.

Most were consultants at €180 per visit. The "evidence" would be everything from basic lack of humanity and manners to gross misconduct. It got so bad at one point, that I had to lodge a formal complaint with the management of one hospital over my treatment.
If had I gone public, I would probably still be on a waiting list five years later with fcuk all to show for it.

As for the points, I think we all agree that the Leaving Cert has its flaws but it is a good indicator of intelligence/aptitude/problem solving. If a student is unable to get high points in LC then its likely they would struggle with medical exams, also when my kids are sick I want the best and brightest Doctor available.

There are plenty of other professions that are just as complex as medicine and don't require a LC result approaching 600 points. I really don't think someone who gets 450-500 points would lack the basic intelligence to study medicine. I don't know what the solution to the problem is. But something is wrong somewhere, and I think the who profession is badly in need of reform so it does a better job of serving the needs of the patients.

partyatmygaff

Firetrap wrote: »

So people swot like crazy in their Leaving Certs to get 900 points to do medicine just so that they can get a warm fuzzy feeling in their tummies each time they help a patient? :rolleyes:

To be even slightly competitive for medicine you need a 550 point LC and a great HPAT. That takes a LOT of dedication and that dedication pays off with the likes of getting 900 points as you said yourself. No matter your motive to study medicine you still need the same level of dedication.

byhookorbycrook

Sadly, I have had reason to have a lot of dealings with medical personnal down the years.Those involved with my late father-in-law and sister-in-law could not have been nicer.

My own gp and neurologist work long and hard and have gone the extra mile for me more than often. Both are straight talkers and I appreciate this, some people would prefer to be plamásed and pandered to, I prefer to know that my doctors are telling me what I need to know and that they are there if I need them.

Computer Sci

davo10 wrote: »

I know no Doctor who does it purely for a pay check, so definately there is some altruism.

No, that's the samaritans you're thinking of - Doctors are paid astronomical salaries. Here's an interesting question for you and your theory, would these altruistic doctors accept pay cuts if it meant more money been available elsewhere in the healthcare system - for instance, money that could be put toward bringing down waiting lists. Do they look at patients on hospital trollies and say "you know what there's more to my life than mercs, bmws and 7 digit mortgages, it's time to compromise and give the money to these poor folks".

Yeah..........sure they do - those altruistic doctors.

strobe

Oranage2 wrote: »

I might be wrong here but my guess is that every individual is different and some might go into the profesion to help others, some might do it for the money, some might have family pressure to do it and others do it for the lolz

I delivered a baby this one time. Said "ohhh fukk it's a lizard!" lulz were had.

partyatmygaff

Computer Sci wrote: »

No, that's the samaritans you're thinking of - Doctors are paid astronomical salaries. Here's an interesting question for you and your theory, would these altruistic doctors accept pay cuts if it meant more money been available elsewhere in the healthcare system - for instance, money that could be put toward bringing down waiting lists. Do they look at patients on hospital trollies and say "you know what there's more to my life than mercs, bmws and 7 digit mortgages, it's time to compromise and give the money to these poor folks".

Yeah..........sure they do - those altruistic doctors.

People may have altruistic motives in studying medicine but at the end of the day it's a job and they need to be paid for their efforts. Becoming a doctor is a long and difficult career choice. It takes dedication from your teens up until the end of your career. You have to grind yourself to the bone in secondary school to just get in to Medical school and then you're faced with the mammoth task of medical school itself. Five difficult years of exams and learning a massive amount of information. Then comes your two year internship where you earn very little for very long and unsociable hours. That's 7 years of study. To progress to a registrar would take a further 5-7 years of training and study. To progress to consultant would require a p.HD and many more years of study. IMO, they deserve the money they get.

Giselle

Computer Sci wrote: »

No, that's the samaritans you're thinking of - Doctors are paid astronomical salaries.

No, some consultants are, more usually private ones.

Consultants are a small proportion of doctors. GP fees seem high but they're also running a business with wages to pay for support staff and huge fees for insurance. And they're entitled to make some profit for all their training and study.

Consultants usually deserve every penny in the public system, for the stupid hours and bad conditions not to mention the huge workload. You can complain about 10 minute sessions but if thats all it takes then thats all it takes, and a doc can't spend all day chatting when they have 20 other patients to get through.

And if you spent all those years studying and training, would you not expect to be compensated for all the years you went without and for your expertise?

Edit: Partyatmygaff beat me to it and said it better.

Computer Sci

partyatmygaff wrote: »

People may have altruistic motives in studying medicine but at the end of the day it's a job and they need to be paid for their efforts. Becoming a doctor is a long and difficult career choice. It takes dedication from your teens up until the end of your career. You have to grind yourself to the bone in secondary school to just get in to Medical school and then you're faced with the mammoth task of medical school itself. Five difficult years of exams and learning a massive amount of information. Then comes your two year internship where you earn very little for very long and unsociable hours. That's 7 years of study. To progress to a registrar would take a further 5-7 years of training and study. To progress to consultant would require a p.HD and many more years of study. IMO, they deserve the money they get.

I'm well aware of what the world would be like without doctors, and thank god for doctors (obviously). But let's use a little bit of logic here, 95% of people take on such positions because it rewards them financially, to think otherwise is naive. It just so happens that the work they do saves lives, but don't think that it's altruism at work, these people are just doing their jobs.

As for all the training doctors need, well there is no point whinging about it is there if it is (a) your choice, and (b) you expect to get (and do get providing you graduate) a high salary at the end of it.

Once again, doctor's save lives and cure the sick, but it is a job - not altruism. Then again, there's nothing wrong in this - I personally don't like delving into the Adam Smith school of thought, but the pursuit of a good living often has good outcomes for society - in this case doctor's wishing to be doctor's. But it is not altruism, that is what the samaritans are there for.

George83

I'll be honest, I'm an RN and although I care I work for the money - it's not pure altruism.

K-9

Giselle wrote: »

No, some consultants are, more usually private ones.

Consultants are a small proportion of doctors. GP fees seem high but they're also running a business with wages to pay for support staff and huge fees for insurance. And they're entitled to make some profit for all their training and study.

Consultants usually deserve every penny in the public system, for the stupid hours and bad conditions not to mention the huge workload. You can complain about 10 minute sessions but if thats all it takes then thats all it takes, and a doc can't spend all day chatting when they have 20 other patients to get through.

And if you spent all those years studying and training, would you not expect to be compensated for all the years you went without and for your expertise?

Edit: Partyatmygaff beat me to it and said it better.

I accept that but what are the contracts for consultants now worth, from about 180k to 300k from my memory?

kowloon

We all hear stories about medical professionals all the time. It's worth noting that someone fucking up makes for a more widely spread story than the story where the tablets worked, the operation went off without a hitch or everyone was friendly.

The bad seeds are fewer in number than we would be led to believe, particularly when we take the news into account. We like to bitch.

The points system doesn't help, it creates the impression that medical is the best course to do bar none and encourages applicants with no aptitude for it to put it on their CAO form solely on grounds of prestige.

As for the money argument, they get paid well, and it certainly acts as a lure, but it doesn't pay the kind of money a good business mind can generate. There are also other areas such as engineering that can get you into bigger money than medicine.

bleg

Entry to medicine is not decided on the basis of points alone and hasn't for at least the last 2 years...

Herb Powell

Computer Sci wrote: »

No, that's the samaritans you're thinking of - Doctors are paid astronomical salaries. Here's an interesting question for you and your theory, would these altruistic doctors accept pay cuts if it meant more money been available elsewhere in the healthcare system - for instance, money that could be put toward bringing down waiting lists. Do they look at patients on hospital trollies and say "you know what there's more to my life than mercs, bmws and 7 digit mortgages, it's time to compromise and give the money to these poor folks".

Yeah..........sure they do - those altruistic doctors.

that's just ignorant

kowloon

bleg wrote: »

Entry to medicine is not decided on the basis of points alone and hasn't for at least the last 2 years...

That I didn't know. Knowledge is power!

Edit: Is there an interview now, or does it require a first degree before entry? It's a while since I did my leaving.

Computer Sci

kowloon wrote: »

There are also other areas such as engineering that can get you into bigger money than medicine.

Surely this is a joke? I know 2 engineers and they are paid crap despite working for years, and despite been experts in their field and also despite haven gone through a very tough course in uni. It is lawyers, doctors and people in finance who are overpaid. Lawyers and finance are overpaid by a long shot and more often than not act as parasites in society. Doctors, in fairness although they save lives and cure the sick are still paid an enormous salary. Engineers design and maintain the computers, cars, airplanes, televisions, bridges, electricity grids and god knows what else and get **** all pay or thanks from the general public - unlike all the fawning that goes on over the likes of doctors, who many seem to confuse with samaritans when giving a personal evaluation of their motives for the entering the profession they did.

Doctors are workers, well-paid workers at that - not Mother Teresa. Another factor mitigating against this argument is of the fact that been a doctor or surgeon is a dangerous job as you are taking people's lives into your hands. I don't know about you, but I would be terrified of people's very lives depending on my actions in my work, and one mistake could put them in the grave. Been a doctor, as well as paying a very high wage is also extremely dangerous - and I doubt anybody would put themselves through all those years of education/ training, and years of work- just so they can be altruistic.

Computer Sci

Herb Powell wrote: »

that's just ignorant

How, so?

kowloon

I know several engineers on excellent salaries. You can't take the top consultants as the average medical wage. But finance and law are probably better choices.

ASVM

Firetrap wrote: »

So people swot like crazy in their Leaving Certs to get 900 points to do medicine just so that they can get a warm fuzzy feeling in their tummies each time they help a patient? :rolleyes:

You can't get 900 points in your Leaving Cert!

ASVM

ASVM wrote: »

You can't get 900 points in your Leaving Cert!

FACE PALM

Herb Powell

Computer Sci wrote: »

How, so?

Because they're supposed to get payed for their their jobs. Would you/do you donate your earnings to hospitals? And I don't get how a doctor donating money to the health system would do much, maybe to buy new equipment or something, but otherwise I'm a bit confused by that.
Also throwing money at it isn't going to magically fix it. Look at how ****e our roads/transport system/numerous other things are in relation to the mount of money we had (as a country). It was pissed away.

Bbbbolger

Computer Sci wrote: »

Surely this is a joke? I know 2 engineers and they are paid crap despite working for years, and despite been experts in their field and also despite haven gone through a very tough course in uni. It is lawyers, doctors and people in finance who are overpaid. Lawyers and finance are overpaid by a long shot and more often than not act as parasites in society. Doctors, in fairness although they save lives and cure the sick are still paid an enormous salary. Engineers design and maintain the computers, cars, airplanes, televisions, bridges, electricity grids and god knows what else and get **** all pay or thanks from the general public - unlike all the fawning that goes on over the likes of doctors, who many seem to confuse with samaritans when giving a personal evaluation of their motives for the entering the profession they did.

Doctors are workers, well-paid workers at that - not Mother Teresa. Another factor mitigating against this argument is of the fact that been a doctor or surgeon is a dangerous job as you are taking people's lives into your hands. I don't know about you, but I would be terrified of people's very lives depending on my actions in my work, and one mistake could put them in the grave. Been a doctor, as well as paying a very high wage is also extremely dangerous - and I doubt anybody would put themselves through all those years of education/ training, and years of work- just so they can be altruistic.

Not all doctors are paid these high salaries you speak of. You're thinking of the top level consultants in the country. That's pretty much as high as you can go in Ireland so you're bound to be making more money. The top lawyers and the top people in the financial worlds earn far more than a consultant I would imagine. Interns and NCHD's don't earn a big salary yet still play vital parts in saving lives. If they're in it for the money they still have a very long road ahead of them before they reach the level of consultant. These days most doctors need to go abroad to do research and then come back before they even have a chance to earn the kind of money that a consultant earns. We hear of bank managers etc. earning ridiculous sums of money. For doctors to earn even half of that they have to put themselves through years and years od strenuous training, work, emotional trauma and potentially career anding etical decisions. I believe that after all that they deserve some form of financial reward.

Tonyandthewhale

'Altruism in the medical proffession' does not mean that doctors have to be motivated 100% by altruism rather than having some concern for providing for themselves and their families as well as going with the flow of what other proffessionals in the field are earning.
If you go into a proffession such as medicine with the hope that you might have a satisfying career helping people it does not make you a monstor if you accept the level of pay all your colleagues make and fail to devote all your time to reducing the amount of money doctors make.
Alturism in the medical proffession implies that doctors and nurses care for their patients and make an effort to help them beyond the bare minimum, it does not preclude the earning of decent wage.