Teach Don't Preach: new secular education website launched

Michael Nugent

Atheist Ireland has launched a new website as part of our campaign for a secular Irish education system based on human rights law. We would welcome any feedback on how it could be improved.

http://teachdontpreach.ie includes information, resources and a discussion forum about secular education, and sample letters to help you to opt your child out of religious education classes in your current school.

http://teachdontpreach.ie also contains a draft document in which our Education Officer Jane Donnelly argues that secular education is a human right, and that the Irish Government denies that right to its citizens. It covers the following issues:

1. Secular Education is a Human Right
2. Structure and Patronage
3. Access to a School of One’s Choice
4. Information and Knowledge Conveyed
5. Second Level Schools
6. Teacher Training
7. New VEC Community Schools
8. Child Sexual Abuse
9. Conclusion
10. Appendices

After feedback, we will be sending the final version of this document later this month to the Irish Human Rights Commission, which is preparing recommendations for the Irish Government on the place of religion in education from a human rights perspective. The Commission has asked for the opinions of citizens and groups before 31 January 2011.

Please also send a separate submission yourself to the Irish Human Rights Commission, as it is important that they see that there is a demand for them to prioritise secular education as a human rights issue. You can get details on how to do this at http://www.ihrc.ie/

Dades

Looks good! Education is my only real beef with the church/state situation in Ireland. Haven't had a chance to really go through it but the first thing that struck me is that the homepage scrolls forever.

Consider putting internal anchor tags on the contents you have listed:

Contents

Introduction
1. Secular Education is a Human Right

Responses to issues raised by the IHRC
2. Structure and Patronage
3. Access to a School of One’s Choice
4. Information and Knowledge Conveyed

Additional issues raised by Atheist Ireland
5. Second Level Schools
6. Teacher Training
7. New VEC Community Schools
8. Child Sexual Abuse

Conclusion and Appendices
9. Conclusion
10. Appendices

People can then jump to the sections relevant to them (and also have a link back to the top).

Michael Nugent

Dades wrote: »

Looks good! Education is my only real beef with the church/state situation in Ireland. Haven't had a chance to really go through it but the first thing that struck me is that the homepage scrolls forever.

Consider putting internal anchor tags on the contents you have listed. People can then jump to the sections relevant to them (and also have a link back to the top).

Thanks for that. We've added internal anchor tags as you suggest.

Look forward to hearing your views overall when you get a chance to read it.

delta_bravo

Did you receive any input from teachers in formulating this document?

The section on teacher training gives no mention to 2nd level teachers which is a big oversight.

CiaranMT

I'm guessing you'll be looking to get coverage in the media for this?

Michael Nugent

Thanks for the feedback so far. We will be contacting teachers unions before we finalise it.

And yes, we will be seeking media coverage. The Sunday Tribune did a report on it yesterday.

Turtwig

This is a very good idea. Darn good actually. I just have one slight question, (which in all honestly is probably answered on the discussion board on the website, but I'm lazy:p)

-The Sunday Tribune wrote:

Elsewhere, the document – which forms part of Atheist Ireland’s Teach Don’t Preach campaign, said the new religious education course introduced in 2000 was “supposed to be suitable for all religions and none.” But it said it had received complaints that some schools were forcing the children of non-religious parents to take the course.
“This course disrespects the philosophical convictions of non-religious parents and breaches their human rights…in order to access the course the children of non-religious parents must endure the disrespect of the state for their parent’s philosophical convictions.”

Is it opposing the teaching of religious education that focuses primarily on one religion or is also opposing the teaching of religious education that merely just tells student about a wide variety and flavour of religions in the world, their origin, their culture etc. Obviously, the former I have huge problems with, but the latter I think every religious or non religious child should definitely be taught - just like any other subject.:)

Michael Nugent

Malty_T wrote: »

Is it opposing the teaching of religious education that focuses primarily on one religion or is also opposing the teaching of religious education that merely just tells student about a wide variety and flavour of religions in the world, their origin, their culture etc. Obviously, the former I have huge problems with, but the latter I think every religious or non religious child should definitely be taught - just like any other subject.:)

Our position is that children should be taught about the diversity of religious beliefs in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner, with no faith formation in school hours.

CrookedIsland1

Michael,

I want to send my daughter to a secular school in Galway but I'm new to all this and I was going to send her to a local VEC school in Galway City until I came across the following advertisement recruiting a Chaplain for the school on their website:

http://www.cgvec.ie/jobs/CurrentVacancies/Thefile,1066,en.pdf

Am I seeing things ? or maybe I don't understand enough about secular, non-denominational education in Irish second level schools !

Help ?

Morag

There aren't any. It's the same with the VEC school my children attend, it says it is multi denominational but what that means is welcoming and accommodating to differing christian sects.
The Chaplin that school is a layperson and she administers communion and ashes in the school as well as being someone the children can go to 'guidance'.

CrookedIsland1

Thank you Morag,

that is very disappointing..........non-denominational education Irish style.

CrookedIsland1

There is a group trying to organise an Educate Together secondary school in Galway: http://get2ls.org/about-us/

Michael Nugent

CrookedIsland1 wrote: »

Michael,

I want to send my daughter to a secular school in Galway but I'm new to all this and I was going to send her to a local VEC school in Galway City until I came across the following advertisement recruiting a Chaplain for the school on their website:

http://www.cgvec.ie/jobs/CurrentVacancies/Thefile,1066,en.pdf

Am I seeing things ? or maybe I don't understand enough about secular, non-denominational education in Irish second level schools !

Help ?

Thanks for this.

I've forwarded it to Jane Donnelly, our education policy officer.

If you want to PM me your email address I can ask her to contact you.

Michael

Banbh

It's a common misconception that VEC schools are secular. They're Catholic of course.

lazygal

Banbh wrote: »

It's a common misconception that VEC schools are secular. They're Catholic of course.

And local bishops fought very hard to get their spade into the schools. Other and no faiths are tolerated but indoctrination takes place during school hours.

expectationlost

http://www.atheist.ie/2013/10/please-donate-today-to-help-atheist-ireland-produce-irelands-first-ever-primary-school-course-about-atheism/

says in interview 'won't teach atheism as truth'

that'll confuse the atheists

Hotblack Desiato

Even the much vilified Richard Dawkins doesn't claim that atheism is truth.

gctest50

It would be good if this slimy aspect could be sorted out :

These schools can also legally give preference to religious families in the event of a shortage of places in the school.

http://www.teachdontpreach.ie/opting-out/

antiskeptic

Michael Nugent wrote: »

http://teachdontpreach.ie also contains a draft document in which our Education Officer Jane Donnelly argues that secular education is a human right,

Would you have a link direct to that document? I'm pretty sure that somewhere in there will be reference to some or other philosophical viewpoint which, whilst entitled to argue it's superiority over the alternatives, can no more point to any absolute correctness than can a religious viewpoint.

Our position is that children should be taught about the diversity of religious beliefs in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner, with no faith formation in school hours.

Are you referring to children whose parents share the above philosophy or are you suggesting it be foisted upon parents who don't share the above philosophy - in much the same way as a religious education is foisted upon so many now?

Banbh

Atheism isn't a philosophy.

Sarky

A tenner says he's leading up to his old "Hooray for low standards!" argument where the voices in your head are just as valid as centuries of scientific endeavour again.

Amusingly, antiskeptic's post in this thread is #19.

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

Even the much vilified Richard Dawkins doesn't claim that atheism is truth.

it is as far as we know, ie there is no god.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

Atheism isn't a philosophy.

Ach, come on now, you shouldn't be bringing simple, undeniable facts into a religious argument.

Hotblack Desiato

expectationlost wrote: »

it is as far as we know, ie there is no god.

Indeed, but even he doesn't claim to be a 100% gnostic atheist all the same (6.9 on his seven point scale where 7 would be gnostic atheism.) It's a common theist fallacy / misrepresentation to say that atheists claim to know with certainty that there is no god, which they cannot know with certainty, and that this makes it a "belief".

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

Indeed, but even he doesn't claim to be a 100% gnostic atheist all the same (6.9 on his seven point scale where 7 would be gnostic atheism.) It's a common theist fallacy / misrepresentation to say that atheists claim to know with certainty that there is no god, which they cannot know with certainty, and that this makes it a "belief".

it also common for people on here to use the word fallacy too much

come on, its true there is no god, (yes we don't know the absolute truth forever) but it is true there is no god, to say otherwords is a false

Hotblack Desiato

Which god though?

I don't see any room for the existence of an Abrahamic-type god or indeed any interventionist god.

I don't see the need for a creator god

What happens beyond our universe (if anything) is unknowable to us and therefore of no real consequence as far as I'm concerned.

This site could be a figment of your imagination, and you be a brain in a jar fed convincing stimuli, and the scientist who synthesised you is then effectively 'god'. But if he doesn't feed you any evidence of his existence, then what? You, in your jar, suspect that there is no god but you simply can't know for certain. You cannot be sure you are being fed all the available data.

So I'm atheist yes, agnostic yes, 6.9 on the Dawkins scale? - more or less, yes. Not 7.0 but not far enough away to worry about the 'god in the gap' either.

expectationlost

just seems if your teaching about atheism and teaching about all the other religious your might be treating them all as equally likely which as far as we know isn't right.

Hotblack Desiato

Give kids the unvarnished facts and they figure out pretty quickly which scenario is more likely to be the truth - this is what religionists fear the most.

Michael Nugent

expectationlost wrote: »

just seems if your teaching about atheism and teaching about all the other religious your might be treating them all as equally likely which as far as we know isn't right.

We won't be treating them all as equally likely.

We will be giving children the information and critical thinking skills to evaluate which are more or less likely.

gctest50

expectationlost wrote: »

just seems if your teaching about atheism and teaching about all the other religious....

expectationlost wrote: »

......your might be treating them all as equally likely which as far as we know isn't right.

They're all just as daft as each other ?

Treating things equally is fine by me and a few more

expectationlost

Michael Nugent wrote: »

We won't be treating them all as equally likely.

We will be giving children the information and critical thinking skills to evaluate which are more or less likely.

so there is more likelihood that there is no god (as far as we know) and the all religions are social constructs, that some people choose to adhere to, that kind of information?

expectationlost

do schools teach maths or teach about maths?

Dades

expectationlost wrote: »

do schools teach maths or teach about maths?

A good math teacher would teach both, I'd suggest.