maxium distance achievable with 1 joule limit

Nicole22

ok im googling a bit and not sure on this one.
basically trying to see the difference of an aeg againt a sniper gun as in terms of actuall distance they both could fire against each other, i know weight bb's comes into factor does everyone use same type at a skirmish or is there a small personal choice involved ?
some guns ive seen on youtube and various sites have higher rates of fps but i believe these to be outside the 1 joule limit is this the case

i did find this converter
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/fps_limits/fps_calc.htm

basically can a spring sniper gun have a longer range of fire over a aeg and both be just under 1 joule limit ?

Stonewolf

One joule out of the end of a barrel is one joule out of the end of a barrel.

A good hop-up is about the most effective factor on range available to us here. Tightbores help with accuracy.

In terms of BBs most people would use .2g ones. .25g BBs are also fairly common and although they travel slower achieve about the same range and fly straighter. In addition to weight there's also a quality consideration. There's a whole minefield of opinion on this matter (I use G&Gs) but suffice to say not all brands are created equal.

sliabh

This guy has detailed information on performance of bbs depending on weight and energy.
http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/index.htm
But as said above, 1J is 1J regardless of what gave it the kick in the first place.

VonLuck

sliabh wrote: »

This guy has detailed information on performance of bbs depending on weight and energy.
http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/index.htm
But as said above, 1J is 1J regardless of what gave it the kick in the first place.

I find his results counter-intuative. For 0.98 joules (http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/07-b-06.htm) all his results show that the heavier the bb the further it will travel.

Reading further on he gives a full explanation http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/08-a-01.htm#B . I decided to quote some of the important bits:

Given equal muzzle energies for BB's fired without hop-up, the heavier BB will always outrange the lighter one. There are two reasons for this: first, for a given equal muzzle energy, a lighter BB will have to be moving faster than the heavier one. Since the force of drag goes up exponentially with respect to velocity, a higher velocity will provide a much higher drag force than a lighter one. Which is to say that, for equal kinetic energies, the force of drag experienced by a lighter projectile will be much higher than it will be for a heavier projectile.

we can see that for non-spinning BB's, the 0.25g BB's eventually outdistance their lighter counterparts.. However, the thing that is most important to observe is that the difference is so small that it would be nearly impossible for the naked eye to observe.

When hop-up is applied, the lighter BB's are able to use backspin to generate lift more so than the heavier BB's. Of course, lighter BB's also lose spin faster than heavier ones, meaning that the effects of lift drop off rapidly down range. Ultimately, what happens is that both types of BB's experience similar trajectories.

What is most important is that heavier BB's do not translate to a loss in range. At worst, the trajectory is on par with their lighter counterparts, and more often than not, heavier BB's will outrange lighter ones.

So basically it seems that heavier bb's outrange lighter ones everytime but the difference is not visible by the naked eye. Although from his results it also seems that heavier bb's reach the target quicker than lighter bb's. His closing remarks confuse me. From his conclusions it seems heavier bb's are the way to go, but:

Ultimately, heavier BB's will outrange their lighter counterparts. This does not mean that heavier BB's are always the most useful or necessary ammunition.

So when are lighter bb's better than heavier ones?

Puding

So when are lighter bb's better than heavier ones?

at the same joule output a lighter bb will travel faster than a heavier bb so it will simply get to the target faster, this can be important with moving targets ( also easy enough sometimes to see bbs in flight and move out of the way at range, done this a large number of times ) the increase in accuracy needs to be balanced with the flight time, something any sniper will be aware of as it is something you always need to have an eye on, for pure accuracy on stationary targets heaver the better but we all know targets in airsoft do not stand still ( unless you get lucky that is )

there is alwasy two sides to data like that linked to, there bench tests, you need to take the information and then add practical experience to make the most of it

VonLuck

Puding wrote: »

at the same joule output a lighter bb will travel faster than a heavier bb so it will simply get to the target faster, this can be important with moving targets ( also easy enough sometimes to see bbs in flight and move out of the way at range, done this a large number of times ) the increase in accuracy needs to be balanced with the flight time, something any sniper will be aware of as it is something you always need to have an eye on, for pure accuracy on stationary targets heaver the better but we all know targets in airsoft do not stand still ( unless you get lucky that is )

there is alwasy two sides to data like that linked to, there bench tests, you need to take the information and then add practical experience to make the most of it

Well if you take a look at this graph: http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/images/07-b-04.gif it shows that initially the lighter bb's reach the target marginally quicker than the heavier bb's. But at a distance of around 85 feet you can see the heavier bb's reach their target quicker than the .2g ones.

So I guess for up to 85 feet lighter bb's are marginally faster but over 85 feet heavier bb's are faster? Lighter bb's don't seem worth it considering all the pro's of heavier bb's.

Puding

VonLuck wrote: »

Well if you take a look at this graph: http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/images/07-b-04.gif it shows that initially the lighter bb's reach the target marginally quicker than the heavier bb's. But at a distance of around 85 feet you can see the heavier bb's reach their target quicker than the .2g ones.

So I guess for up to 85 feet lighter bb's are marginally faster but over 85 feet heavier bb's are faster? Lighter bb's don't seem worth it considering all the pro's of heavier bb's.

and i would say ''there is alwasy two sides to data like that linked to, there bench tests, you need to take the information and then add practical experience to make the most of it''

you talking about basically working this out with formulas, when you start factoring in differences in airsoft devices, the weather, and all the other practical aspects things can change

from experience it depends a lot on the fps your looking at, for 1joule aegs i would say .23 or .25 are a perfect balance of accuracy and speed, when you get into higher fps for snipers at 500fps for anyone traveling the choice becomes a little bit more complicated where you can go anywhere from .30g to .46g

at 1 joule on an aeg there is only a small number of options for weight that is practical ( no point going .30 and above, some would argue above .25g ) and even then the differances in ideal lad condition performance is small,

just try a few weights see what works better in your aeg and run with that

Arkslippy

Ok, ill ask the dumb question, maths aside......

How far should an aeg fire in a calm day, normal temps of say 12 to 16c and with the rifle fired from the shoulder more or less level.


My m4 shoots .20 bbs on single and auto about 80 yards reasonably accuratlely and consistently. my hopup is not adjusted to throes he bbs higher or anything, just firing on the normal trajectory.

Stonewolf

Depending how it's set up anything from 20-30 meters accurately. You can hit a target 50 meters away with sufficient elevation but not reliably or with much force and at those ranges an aware target will be able to sidestep your BBs.

Evade

Arkslippy wrote: »

My m4 shoots .20 bbs on single and auto about 80 yards reasonably accuratlely and consistently. my hopup is not adjusted to throes he bbs higher or anything, just firing on the normal trajectory.

Did you measure this or is it an estimation? 80 yards is a huge distance to shoot at 1J muzzle energy.

Leftyflip

Evade wrote: »

Did you measure this or is it an estimation? 80 yards is a huge distance to shoot at 1J muzzle energy.

On a good day, I'll hit roughly 70 at one joule with .25s, average about 60 or so.

Soberts

If you want maximum range, use a Tanio Koba twist barrel! I have one in my TM l96 and it outranges 99% of guns I play against.

Evade

Soberts wrote: »

If you want maximum range, use a Tanio Koba twist barrel! I have one in my TM l96 and it outranges 99% of guns I play against.

I tried one and I didn't like it, I found it very hard to clean thoroughly too.

I don't mean ant offence by this by this but I'm sceptical of those distances. I've seen some seriously upgrade AEGs struggle to pass 55m.

Soberts

Evade wrote: »

I tried one and I didn't like it, I found it very hard to clean thoroughly too.

I don't mean ant offence by this by this but I'm sceptical of those distances. I've seen some seriously upgrade AEGs struggle to pass 55m.

No offence taken

I have skirmished the TK barrel twice and I am very impressed. Out of interest what length one did you use?
Mine is 500mm long

Evade

I used a 363mm barrel, in my VFC SCAR with Guarder 50° and wasn't overly impressed especially in automatic. It seemed to be affected by wind more than the standard 6.04mm TB too.

defenderdude

Leftyflip wrote: »

On a good day, I'll hit roughly 70 at one joule with .25s, average about 60 or so.

I'd love to see that.

Leftyflip

defenderdude wrote: »

I'd love to see that.

Will show you when your at HRTA next, need decent weather though

Arkslippy

Evade wrote: »

Did you measure this or is it an estimation? 80 yards is a huge distance to shoot at 1J muzzle energy.

80 yards isint a particularly long distance, only 320ft. People often underestimate distance, I'm a golfer too so I often eyeball distances and when you go to a golf course which has actual marked distances measured out, most golfer are surprised how short these distance are, it for example you go to a football pitch and stand in one goal and look at the other one, its much closer than it looks on tv.

And yes, measured out .

bullets

Some interesting replies on the distance.

I would have guessed the effective range would have been only around the 20-25m distance and that an Airsoft gun
would struggle to hit anything man sized at 50-80m without a hold over approaching mortar like angles.

I dont have any experience since I've only 10m out the back garden.
I'd love if 50m more was possible. With your sights/cross hair aiming at the
target you want to hit.

~B

clubberlang12

I'm with Bullet on this one, i think over all distance is irrelevent as its really effective range that is most important. No point being able to reach 70-80 m if you can't hit a barn though consistantly with it. I've only done back yard shooting myself and limited to 100 feet but i would have thought man size targets can be consistantly hit at 130-150 feet. Obviously with upgraded barrels and hop up units that will stretch that further but it really is being able to hit the target that matters at the end of the day. Nice little discussion though.

sliabh

Personally I have played around in a field with man sized targets, and an un-modified JG G36K. I can relatively consistently hit the target at 40m say 3/4 shots. At 50m and I can still hit it but it might be 1 shot in 3. I have hit targets at 60m, but there it might be 1 hit from a burst of auto. I didn't try any further out, but I did try and find BBs lying on the ground. I didn't suceed, but I will put that down to the height of the grass.

Nicole22

some interesting reading on the replies and link
seems it all down so to getting the right hop-up and possibly changinf the barrel for one that suits the player best
i assume there is spefic brand hop up units that are better than standard one's is there any spefic company that produces superior hop op unit's ?

the tighter barrels help more with accuracy and not tdistane or does it help a little ?
does length of barrel affect this also ?

Evade

Arkslippy wrote: »

80 yards isint a particularly long distance, only 320ft.

80 yards is 240 feet.

Arkslippy

Evade wrote: »

80 yards is 240 feet.

You are correct of course, that's why I do sales and not accounting