The Buffyverse Thread

Handsome Bob

Had a bit of a nostalgia trip over the past few days. I was browsing around my local Golden Discs on Wednesday (I think) and to my surprise my eye caught the Season 3 DVD boxset of Buffy. €10 for 22 episodes so what the hey.

I watched the whole boxset over the last two days and remembered just how much I love the show. Season 3 was always my favourite season too so I really enjoyed watching it. I liked so many things about Season 3. For one I think this was the show at its peak, I don't think there's one episode that I didn't like. I particularly liked Consequences, The Zeppo, Earshot, Helpless and Enemies. Particularly Enemies because the twist at the end is fantastic. I was really convinced that Angelus has returned.

Plus, I noticed some things that I didn't upon first viewing. Such as when Willow thought her Doppleganger was gay as well as the fact that Angel dismissed the notion that becoming a Vampire completely changes the person that you are. So it was a nice bit of foreshadowing there.

As I said anyway, I think Buffy was at its best during the 3rd Season. The 4th Season for me saw a drop in quality (though not as bad when watching it for the second time around). I think Season 5 saw a return to form, and it arguably has the best season finale of the show in The Gift, not to mention one of the best episodes of the entire series in The Body.

I think Season 6 and Season 7 were again inferior in comparison to other seasons. I think I would have liked the show to have finished with The Gift. I think it was the perfect resolution for Buffy's character. Whereas in S6 and S7, I think they kind of jumped the shark with the character. I just think she became really unlikeable.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my rambles about Buffy, feel free to share. :pac:

nyarlothothep

I think Buffys character evolution was interesting in that she started out fairly fluffy in temperament, however in later seasons (I haven't seen them all or in depth so I am open to correction) she was quite cerebral and certainly didn't get as tongue tied when discussing intellectual concepts, she became a formidable opponent in debate. However I think the show lost its way at this time in getting too serious. Part of the appeal of Buffy was the sense of parodic fun. I thought it veered close to this trap with the faith/mayor story arc which was just tedious for the most part, it had good ideas but it was more like the scriptwriters wanting to tick boxes for good plotlines rather than evoking a new idea intuitively, which is where I though season 3/4? (the one with the initiative) really flourished. I really digged the idea of scientific research into harnessing the occult and the college transition was effortless.

Faith

The introduction of Dawn was the worst decision Joss Whedon ever made. I want to see Buffy being a kick-ass slayer, not being a fecking mother to a whingy teenage kleptomaniac.

Handsome Bob

Whatever about Dawn, The Gift was a tear jerking finale, and Dawn was a big part of provoking such a emotional situation.

Earthhorse

Season 3 was by far the best in my opinion. Almost every episode shone; both on its own and as part of the unfolding plot. The Mayor and Faith were great characters and both were used to brilliant effect. After that things went rapidly downhill. As nyarly said, the show sort of lost its sense of fun and for a while became more of a soap opera than anything else.

The fact that Dawn, Tara or any of the other useless introductions to the cast may have appeared in some great episodes doesn't excuse all the medicore crap they were also responsible for.

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

Season 3 was by far the best in my opinion. Almost every episode shone; both on its own and as part of the unfolding plot. The Mayor and Faith were great characters and both were used to brilliant effect. After that things went rapidly downhill. As nyarly said, the show sort of lost its sense of fun and for a while became more of a soap opera than anything else.

The fact that Dawn, Tara or any of the other useless introductions to the cast may have appeared in some great episodes doesn't excuse all the medicore crap they were also responsible for.

Faith was deadly alright, though I preferred her on Angel. Her 3 episode arc in Season 4 was the only saving grace of Season 4. Jesus christ, Cordy and Connor, Cordy changed his nappies FFS! That pissed me off big time given the evolution the character went through during Season 2 and 3 of Angel.

Earthhorse

Yup, totally agree with what you say about Angel. Her redemption was handled so brilliantly and believably. Great stuff. Connor and Cordy, ugh. That whole arc was just nonsense. Another example of Joss being influenced by external forces; Charisma Carpenter got pregnant so he decided to make Crodelia pregnant too, resulting in some absolute nonsense. He just threw away all the maturing that character had done in one fell swoop. Such a shame; I do love* his bravery in making unpopular character decisions, like killing off popular characters, but Angle and Cordy is the one thing I really wanted to happen in his shows that never did.

*Clever cross reference to sister thread.

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yup, totally agree with what you say about Angel. Her redemption was handled so brilliantly and believably. Great stuff. Connor and Cordy, ugh. That whole arc was just nonsense. Another example of Joss being influenced by external forces; Charisma Carpenter got pregnant so he decided to make Crodelia pregnant too, resulting in some absolute nonsense. He just threw away all the maturing that character had done in one fell swoop. Such a shame; I do love* his bravery in making unpopular character decisions, like killing off popular characters, but Angle and Cordy is the one thing I really wanted to happen in his shows that never did.

*Clever cross reference to sister thread.

Oh 100% agreed, I was a Cangel fan for sure. I just think the relationship was written really well. I totally believed that the relationship had grown from friendship to love. The Season 3 finale really pissed me off, as you said, Joss wasn't afraid to make unpopular decisions. I do think that Cordy and Angel were the best written relationship in the whole universe, even moreso than Buffy and Angel.

I know that Charisma was pregnant in real life but agh, I just wish Joss kept his thinking hat on a bit longer in regards to writing her out!

Earthhorse

LZ5by5 wrote: »

The Season 3 finale really pissed me off, as you said, Joss wasn't afraid to make unpopular decisions.

Oh, I actually loved that, it was a real cliffhanger; Cordy sent to heaven and Angel sent to hell. It was where he took it in Season 4 that killed me.

But I think we're pretty much in agreement here. They should have handed reigns of the show to us. :cool:

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

Oh, I actually loved that, it was a real cliffhanger; Cordy sent to heaven and Angel sent to hell. It was where he took it in Season 4 that killed me.

But I think we're pretty much in agreement here. They should have handed reigns of the show to us. :cool:

Yeah true, how things ended up is the thing that annoys me about the Season 3 finale.

What did you think of the whole Spike and Buffy thing? I hated their relationship in Season 6, I actually read elsewhere that SMG was pissed with how the relationship went. She felt it was out of character for Buffy and I agree but then again, I suppose that was the whole point of where Buffy was at in life in S6.

Earthhorse

Yeah, hated that too. The whole neutering of Spike was another thing I didn't care for. I know some people found it amusing but for me it's the kind of thing you do for one, two episodes tops and then leave. The "relationship" with Buffy cemented the death of what was a cool character*.

Thankfully that character was successfully resurrected in the final season of Angel. I didn't like how he got there but having Spike as a sarcastic sidekick was really great for the show.

*Interesting (or perhaps not) anecdote here. When Buffy first came out I avoided it like the plague. Reason being, I must have been one of the five people who had seen the original movie, renting it one night having been tempted by the title. It's not awful or anything but I couldn't understand why they'd want to resurrect it as a TV show and it making its debut on Sky One (the home of bargain basement television at the time) sealed the deal for me.

Roll on a few years and my friend is hosting a vampire-themed Halloween party. My invitation comes and I'm to be Spike. So I decide to watch a few episodes so I at least know something about the character. I think the show was on Season 3 at the time, not sure, I could have been dipping in and out of various seasons. After one or two eps I can't help but find it intriguing and have to watch the rest.

Pretty cool, huh? (Please don't answer that ).

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

Yeah, hated that too. The whole neutering of Spike was another thing I didn't care for. I know some people found it amusing but for me it's the kind of thing you do for one, two episodes tops and then leave. The "relationship" with Buffy cemented the death of what was a cool character*.

Thankfully that character was successfully resurrected in the final season of Angel. I didn't like how he got there but having Spike as a sarcastic sidekick was really great for the show.

*Interesting (or perhaps not) anecdote here. When Buffy first came out I avoided it like the plague. Reason being, I must have been one of the five people who had seen the original movie, renting it one night having been tempted by the title. It's not awful or anything but I couldn't understand why they'd want to resurrect it as a TV show and it making its debut on Sky One (the home of bargain basement television at the time) sealed the deal for me.

Roll on a few years and my friend is hosting a vampire-themed Halloween party. My invitation comes and I'm to be Spike. So I decide to watch a few episodes so I at least know something about the character. I think the show was on Season 3 at the time, not sure, I could have been dipping in and out of various seasons. After one or two eps I can't help but find it intriguing and have to watch the rest.

Pretty cool, huh? (Please don't answer that ).

I did like the whole Spike neutered thing up until The Gift, in fact I thought that their final interaction in Buffy's house in The Gift was the perfect way to end Spike's feelings for her. It was interesting to see a Vamp do good without a soul, whereas the second Buffy and Spike got together I knew where it was going and it bored me.

Haha, I'm just surprised that your friend would tell you who you have to dress up as! :P I know what you mean about bargain basement shows on Sky at the time though, Buffy actually desensitised me towards Vampires. I was scared to watch the likes of Bram Stoker's Dracula and Interview with the Vampire but the Vamps on Buffy were so cheesy and funny that I lost my fear. I love both films now. :pac:

Earthhorse

Apparently, the Spike/Buffy thing happened at the behest of fans. You know a show's in trouble when writers are taking tips from the internet.

Ah, my friend's party was a vampire/murder-game them; everyone came as a famous vampire and everyone had a famous vampire they were to assassinate. Though I never worked out who Mr. Trick was because I wasn't familiar enough with the show at the time. Interview is boring, imo, and BS's Dracula is completely over the top. Near Dark is a great vamp film though.

Handsome Bob

Earthhorse wrote: »

Apparently, the Spike/Buffy thing happened at the behest of fans. You know a show's in trouble when writers are taking tips from the internet.

Ah, my friend's party was a vampire/murder-game them; everyone came as a famous vampire and everyone had a famous vampire they were to assassinate. Though I never worked out who Mr. Trick was because I wasn't familiar enough with the show at the time. Interview is boring, imo, and BS's Dracula is completely over the top. Near Dark is a great vamp film though.

It did!? Jesus. :rolleyes:

I like Near Dark too, but I thought the whole

blood transfusion as a cure for Vampirism thing as a bit stupid.

At least that's how I remember the film anyway. :pac:

I liked Interview and Dracula because I found the whole look of both films to be really striking. Plus Oldman was a great Drac!

gene the cow

Was I the only one extremely disappointed wit the last season, I don't think they ended it to the standard that Buffy deserved or to the standards we viewers wud expect the whole thing was so quicky tied up and the xander anya thing was ridic where she died and it didnt even seem to faze him much and she just found this axe wit hardly any bak story to it and tat awkward kiss between her and Angel it was hard to watch even the actors looked near lafin fits. and the one quality about buffy i loved was her extreme need to save everyone but that season she lost tat and became detached from everyone it was as if the writers where just lookin for a quick way out i mean she didnt even kill the first it jst dissapered. and then spike dies and just all of a sudden comes bak in Angel in that retarded way.

Handsome Bob

I didn't like the final season either all that much. So many things really. Too many potentials for one.

Kennedy surely has to go down as one of the most annoying characters on TV ever.

I felt Buffy was really unlikeable too, not because she was the hard ass general making the tough decisions, but just because some of her decisions really were crap. Even though I hated the potentials, they were right to mutiny, and I was glad to see Faith put in charge albeit for a brief period.

Spike was just brutal in this season. He went from being the only one who could tell things straight to being Buffy's bitch, blindly backing her up on every decision. And yeah, I would have preferred if he wasn't in the final season of Angel.

I didn't mind Xander's reaction to Anya's death though, you could tell that he was falling apart by looking at his eyes, he just didn't want to lose it in front of Andrew.

gene the cow

I hated Kennedy the relationship between her and Willow was so forced and frigid there was just no chemistry between them and she never stopped nagging.

spinandscribble

Faith wrote: »

The introduction of Dawn was the worst decision Joss Whedon ever made. I want to see Buffy being a kick-ass slayer, not being a fecking mother to a whingy teenage kleptomaniac.

I think she was planted to tie buffy to Sunnydale. I hated dawn.

Tar.Aldarion

That was SUCH a bad twist apart from the girl being hot. Show got worse from there.

iguana

gene the cow wrote: »

she just found this axe wit hardly any bak story to it

Buffy was quite often like that though, I adored the show but it had a lot of deus ex machina in the season finales.

Why exactly was Angel the only one who could activate Acathla with his blood?

20 minutes to the end of S4 it turns out that if Buffy has 3 buddies she can harness the power of every slayer ever, never referenced before and never again considered thereafter. She had mega-magic-matrix powers, sure it made her a little hunty but when faced with the most powerful evil ever it's not even discussed?

Never mind the magic slayer axe, what about Spike's magic jewel that Wr&H had lying around, and the Guardians who watched the Watchers.

Joss was never the best plotter. All of those things could have fitted well into the story with just a few minor hints throughout the series. Instead they were always just plucked from thin air. They never ruined the show for me because the characters were mostly well written and very well acted (SMG especially is deeply underrated) - cared about what happened to them, but many of the finales used to leave me a little baffled. One reason that The Gift was so great is that everything in the final battle came from earlier plot points.

What I hated most about the last season of Buffy and the concurrent season of Angel, were Caleb and Jasmine. They both just annoyed me and never felt menacing or creepy like I know they were supposed to. I didn't understand the point of them until I realised Fillion and Torres had basically been shoe-horned in because of Firefly. I hated the characters so much I would have avoided Firefly if my husband hadn't bought me the dvd boxset and wanted to watch it with me.

Kimia

I'm watching my box sets again right now and more than ever for me Xander is becoming so unlikeable. It's like when he gets 'serious' he gets this dark look in his eyes and gets really intense - I don't like it at all and it's really offputting.

He's also a terrible character - the whole thing with Angel and how he never gave Buffy the heads up that Willow was trying the soul/curse spell again. He then cheats on Cordelia and never takes it seriously like Willow - and for the rest of the season just gets into these stupid spats with Cordelia to try and make himself feel better.

Him, Dawn and Kennedy are the most irritating in the whole series I think. I'm just finishing season 3 at the moment and that and season 4 are my favourite. The later ones have some good episodes but as a whole I prefer the earlier ones because Buffy gets slightly annoying in Season 6 and don't even talk to me about her in Season 7.

Love Spike. One of my favourite moments with Spike is at the end of the musical episode after they defeat the demon and they all launch into the closing number. Spike starts singing and dancing and then just says 'Sod this' or something and walks off. It's completely true to character and very funny.

nyarlothothep

Yeah, Xander is to Buffy as Neelix is to Voyager, needy, hypocritical, passive aggressive and so on. Dawn is the worst character in the history of the show. Ever. I've never seen Kennedy in action as I didn't watch much of S7 but I imagine she's pretty bad too.