English

Yahooaccount

I was just wondering if you copied an essay from a revision book for Hamlet and reproduced it in the exam and the examiner can see where you got the essay from, can they take marks off you or is that allowed?
Thanks.

Chris Martin

If is a decent answer I can't see why not,
Woud probably be favourable to personalise it a bit though, give your personal views on a few of the characters, throw in a few extra quotes, essentially then you're making the answer yours so yes, can't deducts marks for that, so long as it's relevant to the question asked.

partyatmygaff

You can't do that. If they find that you've plagiarised an answer they won't give you any marks for it.

Chris Martin

But how will they know if you've played around with it a bit,
If you make it your own and use relevent point,
Nothing against using information thats there like if it's correct and relevent, obviously not word for word like but able to use information from sample answer, otherwise why have it..
In some topics certain points and things you can say are limited to everyone is going to say pretty much the same thing,
Its quite hard to spot plagiarism under these circumstances,
My advice is to watch out and personalise as much as possible..

mulner92

Don't see the big deal. I got the key notes book last year copied and learnt points from each of my chosen poets and it worked well, got a grade i never thought i was capable of.

Benicetomonty

They won't do you for plagiarism in the Leaving Cert; the exam is practically insisting upon it, especially when it comes to Shakespeare!

What will happen however is that you, like a majority of people, will find it very difficult to reproduce, word for word, a 4-6 page essay, and when you have to fill in the gaps with your own writing, it will stand out like a sore thumb to the examiner. As a result, you may potentially lose marks in the 'clarity' section, since there will be a probable depreciation in quality between your work and that of the professional (A) English teacher or (in some cases!) (B) professional writer whose notes you've learned off.

Junior D

Well for Paper 1, I learned off an article from Irish Examiner about the 2009 All-Ireland hurling final word-for-word. Got 94% for it. Same as someone else above, I got the key notes book and learned stuff from it word-for-word as well. I got an A in the leavin so what I'm sayin is I learned everythin off by heart English and I was ok

Wolfe Tone

Junior D wrote: »

Well for Paper 1, I learned off an article from Irish Examiner about the 2009 All-Ireland hurling final word-for-word. Got 94% for it. Same as someone else above, I got the key notes book and learned stuff from it word-for-word as well. I got an A in the leavin so what I'm sayin is I learned everythin off by heart English and I was ok

No, YOU didn't get an A.

gaeilgegrinds1

Personalise it and the learn. End of. I don't advocate that usually but have seen people without a real flair for English getting the same grade in it as those with a real clue!

Benicetomonty

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Personalise it and the learn. End of. I don't advocate that usually but have seen people without a real flair for English getting the same grade in it as those with a real clue!

+1. I'm an English teacher and I can spot when somebody has relied completely on regurgitating notes in exam circumstances; it can't be done 100% and your own writing and ability is made to look inferior (unfairly) by comparison. A diligent examiner would dock marks because the overall flow of the essay has been upset. Having said that, if you are good at memorising large chunks of notes, it will easily get you an honour. As I've alluded to, plagiarism is not a factor in itself for Leaving Cert English.

Study the notes, personalise them, express the points in your own words and, as much as possible, quote only from the main texts or poems you're working with.

Junior D

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No, YOU didn't get an A.

Ha how do you know??? Do you know me??? Don't think so, I got an A2.

Wolfe Tone

Junior D wrote: »

Ha how do you know??? Do you know me??? Don't think so, I got an A2.

That made me laugh. Re read what I said and think about it.

Junior D

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

That made me laugh. Re read what I said and think about it.

Ha sorry, forgive me, read in the wrong context

UnLuckyAgain

You would absolutely need to be careful, not just from plagiarism aspect but also because the rest of your answers would look mediocre compared to the published answer that you reemed off.

If all of your answers are at the same standard (similarly structured, intelligently discussed etc), the examiner will clearly see that you have clarity and fluidity of thought, and will reward you accordingly.
However, if your Hamlet essay is a spectacular read, and the examiner turns the page to your poetry essay for example, which is clearly of a different standard, alarm bells will surely be ringing.

aranciata

Although I think it's wrong and completely unmoral, you're not going to get caught for plagiarism. A lot of these people like to know what they're talking about here but they don't, they assume things. No examiner is going to google a line from your essay, no examiner is going to recognise your essay from a local obscure short story competition. There's little difference plagiarising an english essay than there is plagiarising an answer to a geography question, or an irish debate from a revision book.

As long as you aren't caught plagiarising from another student IN THE EXAM CENTER, or from notes or pages IN THE EXAM CENTER, there is literally nothing that can be done to dock you full marks. I imagine that if an examiner suspects something, they mark harder, but hey, there's absolutely no way of knowing if someone has plagiarised something, or it being by coincidence.

spurious

All the above is very risky. The SEC are well aware of the amount of learning off and spewing that goes on and will adjust questions to suit.

If you're doing HL LC English and can't write an answer on your own, you're not HL LC English standard.

spurious

aranciata wrote: »

Although I think it's wrong and completely unmoral, you're not going to get caught for plagiarism. A lot of these people like to know what they're talking about here but they don't, they assume things. No examiner is going to google a line from your essay, no examiner is going to recognise your essay from a local obscure short story competition. There's little difference plagiarising an english essay than there is plagiarising an answer to a geography question, or an irish debate from a revision book.

As long as you aren't caught plagiarising from another student IN THE EXAM CENTER, or from notes or pages IN THE EXAM CENTER, there is literally nothing that can be done to dock you full marks. I imagine that if an examiner suspects something, they mark harder, but hey, there's absolutely no way of knowing if someone has plagiarised something, or it being by coincidence.

What an interesting first 3 posts.

The fact is candidates can and have had marks deducted because of it.

aranciata

Do you know which Chief Examiner's Reports that appeared in? Articles? Testimonies? Reports?

I'd really love to look it at it. It sure would be nice to have some concrete evidence around here, for once.

aranciata

And since you're counting, that was four. This is five.

Chris Martin

spurious wrote: »

What an interesting first 3 posts.

The fact is candidates can and have had marks deducted because of it.

Want to be unlucky though,
Not saying I'll plagiarize,
Can't memorize so can't plagiarize..
Double ended sword.
Say its been done and majority don't get caught..
Rather they did though, making it tougher for me otherwise..

UnLuckyAgain

aranciata wrote: »

No examiner is going to google a line from your essay, no examiner is going to recognise your essay from a local obscure short story competition.

Why wouldn't they? If there's any doubt, its so easy to see if the student's work is indeed personal and original. The whole system is about understanding English techniques/tools of analysis and being able to apply them to a piece of literature.

Plagiarism simply displays one's ability to copy.

Chris Martin

aranciata wrote: »

Do you know which Chief Examiner's Reports that appeared in? Articles? Testimonies? Reports?

I'd really love to look it at it. It sure would be nice to have some concrete evidence around here, for once.

Tough on a site used and run by the public,
Like trying to find truth on Wikipedia..

aranciata

Chris Martin wrote: »

Tough on a site used and run by the public,
Like trying to find truth on Wikipedia..

The man said it was a fact, and he must be serious because.. o! god, he underlined it! The horror!

aranciata

It seems of the utmost importance that I update everyone. Yes, that was my sixth post. Indeed this is my seventh post. Spurious, it's nice to know you are looking out for me.

Your pal,
Aranciata

spurious

aranciata wrote: »

It seems of the utmost importance that I update everyone. Yes, that was my sixth post. Indeed this is my seventh post. Spurious, it's nice to know you are looking out for me.

Your pal,
Aranciata

Here's an update.
Have a 7 day break.

randylonghorn

aranciata wrote: »

The man said it was a fact, and he must be serious because.. o! god, he underlined it! The horror!

"The man" is a woman, a teacher and an experienced examiner.

You need to cop yourself on, and yes, I am serious about that.

GoldFour4

randylonghorn wrote: »

"The man" is a woman, a teacher and an experienced examiner.

You need to cop yourself on, and yes, I am serious about that.

He might understand it better if you underlined it !! jk:D

Coeurdepirate

aranciata wrote: »

Do you know which Chief Examiner's Reports that appeared in? Articles? Testimonies? Reports?

I'd really love to look it at it. It sure would be nice to have some concrete evidence around here, for once.

Chill the fúck out, you've been here one day and yet you know enough about the site to say that there isn't usually concrete evidence.

PictureFrame

To be honest I doubt the examiners are going to have EVERY revision book and English book available flicking through them in order to see has it been copied. At the end of the day the correctors just want to correct them, send them off and go and enjoy their holidays. Just copy it and change it around slightly ie. your own quotes, references etc. The correctors will neither notice OR care enough to check it in my opinion.

Saying this i'm only in 5th year and have no idea how the SEC works! :L

Chris Martin

Odd person to challenge...
Mod of FETAC/PLC, Teaching & Lecturing and the entirety of Edu.
One thing disagreeing but Jesus.

And all in all imo,
Learning answers off is actually taking away from the whole concept of English.
I know people who have beaten me in tests that I know I have a better English than.
In the exam, chances are I'm going to construct an answer from scratch, but it will be mine. Avoiding all risks of plagiarism and I'll know my information so it will be a decent answer.
One of few it will seem, to do the English exam as it is intended to be done.
Perhaps I'll get bonus marks for it

PictureFrame

:O, and moving swiftly on..
I'm in 5th year and would really really love an A in English. Every essay I give up gets a different grade each time. The level of variation in my English grades is surreal. I got 77% (B2) in my christmas test. So far we've done 2 poets (Kavanagh & Plath), Act I-3 Hamlet then comprehensions and general Exam paper questions. Does anyone have any tips on how to improve my English grades slightly?. Thanks.

KaiserLu

PictureFrame wrote: »

:O, and moving swiftly on..
I'm in 5th year and would really really love an A in English. Every essay I give up gets a different grade each time. The level of variation in my English grades is surreal. I got 77% (B2) in my christmas test. So far we've done 2 poets (Kavanagh & Plath), Act I-3 Hamlet then comprehensions and general Exam paper questions. Does anyone have any tips on how to improve my English grades slightly?. Thanks.

Simply, make sure you are answering the question. This means highlighting the key words of the question being asked and including them in every point you make.

The question I always tell my students to ask themselves is "How can I use what I have to answer the question?"

For example, let's say you have a bit about Hamlet hating his burden of revenge.

If the question was "Hamlet deserves no sympathy from the reader" Discuss. You could say you agree as he knows he must kill Claudius but spends most of the play whining about it.

However, if the question was "Hamlet is a heroic character" Discuss. You could say that he is an ultimately heroic character as even though he curses his burden of revenge, he eventually manages to overcome this and kills Claudius.

Same info used to answer two completely different questions.

The same is true in poetry, or most of Paper 2. Don't panic when you get the question, simply take a breath and ask yourself how you can use what you have to answer the question. But ALWAYS INCLUDE THE KEY WORDS OF THE QUESTION THROUGHOUT YOUR ANSWER

Hope this helps.

Wolfe Tone

This type of thing pisses me off. I did all my own work, and got a HL B1, only thing I memorized was quotes.


Now who is better and has a greater understanding of English? Me or the guy who memorized everything and got an A?

PictureFrame

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

This type of thing pisses me off. I did all my own work, and got a HL B1, only thing I memorized was quotes.


Now who is better and has a greater understanding of English? Me or the guy who memorized everything and got an A?

They just played the game better to be honest. The whole Leaving Cert. is a memory game through and through..

Benicetomonty

aranciata wrote: »

No examiner is going to google a line from your essay, no examiner is going to recognise your essay from a local obscure short story competition. There's little difference plagiarising an english essay than there is plagiarising an answer to a geography question, or an irish debate from a revision book. QUOTE]


Afraid I have the agree with the majority of this. Anybody who's corrected a Leaving Cert English exam will know how long it takes, especially at higher level. An examiner will spot plagiarism almost immediately, but is not going to go out of his/her way to look up the probable source of this just so they can feel better about failing the student! If the material is in anway relevant, you can pretty much guarantee an honour.

But not a great one. As I've already said, the Leaving Cert titles change every year, and no pre-learned essay is going to be able to stand on its own as a perfect answer. It will need to be refined with your own knowledge and ability to write which will affect the coherency of the essay as you are essentially competing with your 'ghost writer' :P. As was also already mentioned, if it's not spotted in one specific essay, it definitely will be between different sections (poetry, comparative, single text) later on in the exam. Your own ability will always shine through which will get you the A or high B.

PictureFrame

Benicetomonty: Do you know if there is any re-occuring themes in the composition section? Do you have any tips on how to improve my essay writing?

Benicetomonty

PictureFrame wrote: »

Benicetomonty: Do you know if there is any re-occuring themes in the composition section? Do you have any tips on how to improve my essay writing?

The composition questions are accomodating. I don't think the paper 1 themes themselves are recurring but they are always very general and provide plenty of options for the essay titles. It's a real make or break question; in the context of this thread, I feel it is nigh on impossible to attempt to plagiarise an essay, so your individual skill and ability to write will be put on display!
Couple of basic things to remember: Always, always read the question carefully, and refer back to what you're being asked to do at least once every paragraph. Structurally, the 'beginning, middle and end' formula is a winner, cliched as it may sound; the easier it is to read, the more inclined the examiner will be to read back over it more than once to find you more marks. You will always be given 'free reign' titles in the form of personal essays and short stories; for outrageously fictional efforts, I would use one of these two options. Short stories carry their own traits: characterisation, plot, setting and resolution are terms you will come across before this time next year!

Elsewhere, many of the other essays will require a knowledge of certain types of functional writing; a magazine article or a speech needs to be accompanied by the appropriate register, which ought to be sustained throughout the composition. For example, if you are asked to give a speech on the importance of heroes (LC 2003), you should remember you're talking to an audience and not a wall - efforts to acknowledge and include this audience in your delivery will be expected.

Finally, one of the most valuable skills in compositions is to be able to entertain. Whether you are genuinely witty and humourous or are able to build suspense and drama with your writing, if you can entertain the examiner, you're well on your way to producing a quality essay.

Also, work on your time management and practice!

heyyjude

I got an A in the Junior Cert, i loved English and found it really interesting.
Then came TY and we didnt do anything in any subject, so everything went out the window.
Fifth year english was a real struggle and I'm in sixth year now and cant seem to get higher than a C1. We have an excellent teacher and she said that I had a flair for English and an excellent command of it but that she is quite worried as I seem to have lost my confidence.
Its not my confidence that I have lost, its the flair!
Writing is like torture for me now, it's like I have a mega writers block! I read alot as I did during the Junior Cert but I feel as if I have lost my intelligence when it comes to English?

How did this happen???

RMD

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No, YOU didn't get an A.

What's the difference between learning points from the normal course book of a subject and then learning points from a revise wise style book? There is no difference, it's the same thing in essence. Going by your logic then nobody gets the grade they got for learning different points, the author of every book used nationwide in leaving cert classes get's that grade.

The leaving cert as a whole is a joke of an examination. It's based on who can learn the most and then transfer it onto paper in a coherent manner. It makes no difference what people did to get that grade unless they cheated.