The Punch your hand in the Air thing.

krd

Just start this by saying don't ask me for examples of what I mean.

Do you know the punch your hand in that air thing. This is kind of more a House thing than techno. But it's something you'll notice more hearing the music on a large sound system.

It's not so much in the big breakdowns or build ups - though it can be (as that may be the idea behind the big build ups and breakdowns - but a lot the time it's missing - it can be there in house music where there isn't any big breaks - just little punch points). But you feel something in the music and when it comes you feel like throwing your hands in the air.

So where is the punch point?

How do you do a punch point?

I'll figure it out myself - but it's something crucial I want to learn to put in my own music.

ICN

I usually sample myself doing it & then stick it under the groove, like a ghost cowbell.

DamagedTrax

krd wrote: »

Just start this by saying don't ask me for examples of what I mean.

Do you know the punch your hand in that air thing. This is kind of more a House thing than techno. But it's something you'll notice more hearing the music on a large sound system.

It's not so much in the big breakdowns or build ups - though it can be (as that may be the idea behind the big build ups and breakdowns - but a lot the time it's missing - it can be there in house music where there isn't any big breaks - just little punch points). But you feel something in the music and when it comes you feel like throwing your hands in the air.

So where is the punch point?

How do you do a punch point?

I'll figure it out myself - but it's something crucial I want to learn to put in my own music.

dynamics and arrangement.

theres no big secret, you just have to understand how a dancefloor works. the only way to understand it is to draw on your own dancefloor experiences and replicate that feeling... be it a short drop, a huge breakdown, the introduction of a new element or even just a crash cymbal.

krd

ICN wrote: »

I usually sample myself doing it & then stick it under the groove, like a ghost cowbell.

Actually, that's an interesting point. Ghost rhythms. Do they actually work. Can you put something down in the mix that will give the music a more rhythmic feel without muddying it or becoming over powering.


And, aw, haw, haw. I do get the joke. But at the same time it's something hard to define that is of major importance. I don't really know how to tackle it yet. I would say there isn't a simple formula to it - or at least I can't see a simple formula to it.

splitrmx

krd wrote: »

I would say there isn't a simple formula to it - or at least I can't see a simple formula to it.

Following formulas to make music = formulaic music.

krd

DamagedTrax wrote: »

dynamics and arrangement.

theres no big secret, you just have to understand how a dancefloor works. the only way to understand it is to draw on your own dancefloor experiences and replicate that feeling... be it a short drop, a huge breakdown, the introduction of a new element or even just a crash cymbal.

For the dancfloor I think it's a combination of the DJ and the producer. I've heard some live DJ mixing (mashing up - where the switch has been completely wrong - sounds flawlesy in time but the timing of the switch is wrong - feels like it breaks the flow). My idea of a hellish night out - is where the DJs are playing music where everything just seems to be in the wrong place.

I don't think there's a simple formula - like the break should come in the 16th bar - not the 12th. Or the big breakdown should be 16 or even 32 but never 24 or 25.

I don't know. It's strong in some records and not so strong in others. Or even missing completely from some.

I'm trying to think what do I specifically need to work on to get it to work in what I do myself.

TelePaul

The first recorded instances of fist pumping can be traced back to Bruce Springsteen's 'Born in the USA', summer 1984. This tendency was propagated by a number of non-acoustic props, such as bandanas, ripped jeans, and the simultaneous wearing of a leather jacket and denim vest. Environmental factors such as Reaganism helped, and any attempts at repeating the phenomenon will benefit greatly from having a brother at Khe Sahn. Your finished work should also represent the first Compact Disc to be manufactured in the USA. It wont accurately capture the fist pump propensity otherwise.

ICN

@krd - :cool:

Its nice having a few buttons assigned to your controller & jam stuff out a bit.

I try to do that as much as I can, to get a rough arrangement out. Have all the mutes & volumes infront of me on the Nocturn & see what happens. You can get into a groove yourself pressing mutes rhythmically & messing with levels. Bit like using a DJ Mixer & mostly based on feeling. Thats what I like about Live & wanted to bring into Logic.

I'll usually have everything looped out for X.XX mins & then edit it all after. Might have a few points where I have the Kick filtered out or a new element being introduced or whatever.

Its cool taking everything out & having your fingers spread over X amount of buttons & then pressing them all at the same time. If I had a free hand, I guess I'd be punching the air at that point

krd

ICN wrote: »

@krd - :cool:

Its nice having a few buttons assigned to your controller & jam stuff out a bit.

I don't use a controller at the minute. Eventually I'll move on to one. I'd love an interface, something like a multi touch screen. I've heard Ableton on I-pad is pretty good. For the minute, I'm not buying anything.

I try to do that as much as I can, to get a rough arrangement out. Have all the mutes & volumes infront of me on the Nocturn & see what happens. You can get into a groove yourself pressing mutes rhythmically & messing with levels. Bit like using a DJ Mixer & mostly based on feeling. Thats what I like about Live & wanted to bring into Logic.

I've tried that too, with Ableton. I have done bits with it. I was trying it today and got some surprising results that were around what I was looking for.

I've been thinking of creating lots of different rythm and sound clips and then putting things together that way.

There's also a strong case of finding what works and what doesn't - by accident or design etc.

One thing that put me off about the Ableton live jamming was if a clip difn't fire on time. Because fff it, it's not going to make sense to fire another clip where it should be. I'll find a way around that I'm sure.

I'll usually have everything looped out for X.XX mins & then edit it all after. Might have a few points where I have the Kick filtered out or a new element being introduced or whatever.

That's actually given me a solid idea of something to try. I think I could think of a few good variations that could help me get control of the live jams.

Its cool taking everything out & having your fingers spread over X amount of buttons & then pressing them all at the same time. If I had a free hand, I guess I'd be punching the air at that point

Some advice I've heard but haven't taken (as it's a little exhausting to do this for hours on end) is dance or at least move to the music while you're making it. That way stuff will make sense and you won't put things in that don't really make sense.

I think I might work it out as lightly bobbing my head and gently flicking my index finger in the air for the punches. Or maybe raise an eyebrow.

krd

TelePaul wrote: »

The first recorded instances of fist pumping can be traced back to Bruce Springsteen's 'Born in the USA', summer 1984. This tendency was propagated by a number of non-acoustic props, such as bandanas, ripped jeans, and the simultaneous wearing of a leather jacket and denim vest. Environmental factors such as Reaganism helped, and any attempts at repeating the phenomenon will benefit greatly from having a brother at Khe Sahn. Your finished work should also represent the first Compact Disc to be manufactured in the USA. It wont accurately capture the fist pump propensity otherwise.

No. I think you're thinking of a different kind of fist pumping.

This has nothing to do with men in leather vests and bandannas, ripping your jeans - while blaring Bruce Springsteen at an ear splitting levels (or a scream covering volumes)
.
But by all means, whatever floats your boat. Have yourself fist pumped til you go unconscious.

By all means, get pumped.

ICN

@krd - Its actually pretty sweet with Live using scenes - have/do you use them? Wish that you could do something like Scenes in Logic. Love that feature in Live.

Also with live - the Function Keys on the computer keyboard mute the channels.. so thats useful as well.


Anyway - cant praise highly enough playing a sound rhythmically with mutes. You can get some really sh!tty 1D sound & have a send going to a delay & start turning it on & off. Bounce it & you've got a cool little thing that you wouldnt have thought of.

Best of luck with it all Man

ICN

One more thing when you are editing it all afterwards:

Stick a Gain/volume plug in your chain at the end & do the proper automation in that.. that way, you'll still be able to mix using the faders.

With live, you can assign the gain volume to a fader anyway.. so thats probably the easiest - its just the ar$eways way I have to do it in Logic.

TelePaul

krd wrote: »

No. I think you're thinking of a different kind of fist pumping.

This has nothing to do with men in leather vests and bandannas, ripping your jeans - while blaring Bruce Springsteen at an ear splitting levels (or a scream covering volumes)
.
But by all means, whatever floats your boat. Have yourself fist pumped til you go unconscious.

By all means, get pumped.

Just to be clear, you're not talking about something technical, correct? Your talking about people actually punching their hands in the air?

studiorat

I always thought it was something to do with coming up on a yoke as opposed to a particular musical attribute, but that's only my opinion!

krd

TelePaul wrote: »

Just to be clear, you're not talking about something technical, correct? Your talking about people actually punching their hands in the air?

Sometimes they do punch their hands in the air. Not always. But if the break/hit/change etc all work together, they may.


In a way it is kind of is technical. It's not something you could understand alone from listening to dance music. You'd have to literally dance to it.

DamagedTrax

studiorat wrote: »

I always thought it was something to do with coming up on a yoke as opposed to a particular musical attribute, but that's only my opinion!

you're not far wrong

krd

DamagedTrax wrote: »

you're not far wrong

And that's why people dance to crystal swing when they drop yokes. Because it doesn't matter what the music is as long as you have the yokes.

krd

Though a serious question. Does it really mess things up for a DJ trying to mix if I don't have everything neatly laid out in blocks of 8, 16, etc?

seannash

krd wrote: »

Though a serious question. Does it really mess things up for a DJ trying to mix if I don't have everything neatly laid out in blocks of 8, 16, etc?

It doesnt totally mess things up but it does make it easier for djs to mix and alot of djs simply wont even try and mix a track that doesnt really conform with the norm because it might mess them up

Now you will have people who say that you can loop a 4 bar section in ableton/cdjs.
this is true but its generally easier just to follow some sort of arrangement.

Now i know the response will inevitably be 'but thats stifling creativity"
Fair enough but if your making music for the floor these arrangements are tried and tested.

krd

seannash wrote: »

It doesnt totally mess things up but it does make it easier for djs to mix and alot of djs simply wont even try and mix a track that doesnt really conform with the norm because it might mess them up

Yeah, in the last track I did a kick run and a drop not quite where it should be. I played around with mixing some tracks last night (on Ableton first time I've got that bit to work). for mixing, the drop was in the wrong place. I think it's probably pointless putting in little surprises at the start and the end of records.

Now you will have people who say that you can loop a 4 bar section in Ableton/cdjs.
this is true but its generally easier just to follow some sort of arrangement.

Now i know the response will inevitably be 'but thats stifling creativity"
Fair enough but if your making music for the floor these arrangements are tried and tested.

Arrangements have been a big problem for me. I'd literally go nuts trying to find the hidden mathematical formula in there. What I've found, if you look too closely at the wood long enough, you'll not be able to see the trees. You will go barmy looking at piece of plywood or chipboard wondering why you can't understand it.

Listening back to some stuff I did 6/7 months ago (which seems like another lifetime) the mistakes in the arrangements are glaringly obvious to me now. It's not that I didn't know they were wrong at the time, it's more I didn't know how to fix them or precisely how they were wrong. Doing them again I would do them differently.

Most of the time I really only had the vaguest idea about what I was doing.

I'd like to have good mix/in outs so DJs would feel comfortable playing my music (more the music I intend to make than what I'm achieving now). It's just something I'll have to learn to do.

And really what stifles creativity is not knowing how to do something, or having some technical difficulty that's stops you from doing something the way you would like to.

Another question. If anyone knows the answer. Is there a preferred set of keys (musical keys) for writing dance music in. Like a bass line written in Am will mix without sounding off over something coming in in C or even G - it will sound off if you're in Eb.