Possibility of a Labour/ FF government

take everything

Just reading Patsy McGarry's opinion piece in the Irish Times today and he thinks this is not unlikely.
I never really thought about this much until now but it made me shudder.
Is this a serious prospect?
Didn't Gilmore say he'd never go into coalition with them.
Thoughts?

Biggins

Similar to this thread: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056129249

Won't happen. Hell would freeze over before anyone of decency will align themselves with FF.
And if they do sign up with the Devils party, they will be seen to be instantly damned in the same light.

Big Lar

Wohoo, another scapegoat for FF

Liam Byrne

It seems like the FF spin machine has moved on from "Don't vote for FG in case they 'do a Greens' and get into bed with us" and are now trying the same tactic with Labour.

I'll be asking for a cast-iron guarantee, written down, from any candidates that come canvassing, and I would suggest that everyone else do the same.

galwayrush

Don't see it happening, Labour should be wise to the destructive FF machine at this stage.

Dirk Gently

I think FF + one of the other two is at least as likely as Lab + FG. Anyone who thinks Labour and FG will turn down FF if the numbers add up and their policies get the FF green light are very naive.

the groutch

more of FF clutching at very thin straws

think Gilmore will be happier to wait til 2016 to be Taoiseach than to do a deal with the devil

bmaxi

Any party aligning themselves with FF is committing political hari kiri. The people want rid of FF, that much is clear even to the wastrels who are deserting FF in droves at the moment. It's nearly worth paying that arsehole Ahern €150,000 a year to be shot of him and his ilk, I hope it chokes him.

later12

take everything wrote: »

Just reading Patsy McGarry's opinion piece in the Irish Times today and he thinks this is not unlikely.
I never really thought about this much until now but it made me shudder.
Is this a serious prospect?
Didn't Gilmore say he'd never go into coalition with them.
Thoughts?

It would be a bad political move for both FF and Labour in the long run. FF need a period of time on the opposition benches. Labour should have learned from their last encounter with FF, though it would be interesting to hear Gilmore deny it outright.

Coillte_Bhoy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It seems like the FF spin machine has moved on from "Don't vote for FG in case they 'do a Greens' and get into bed with us" and are now trying the same tactic with Labour.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'll be asking for a cast-iron guarantee, written down, from any candidates that come canvassing, and I would suggest that everyone else do the same.

So you're going to ask every candidate that canvasses you for written guarantees?? Don't be ridiclous.

annoyingbeast

i think it'll be either a fg/sf coalition or a lab/sf coalition, ff have too much a bad image, and i think labour and fg are too different to go in together. i think this new left alliance thing is gonna get more votes then expected, and the greens are going to be crucified.

Fg and Sf ?

I very much doubt it tbh.

Liam Byrne

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So you're going to ask every candidate that canvasses you for written guarantees?? Don't be ridiclous.

I'm not being ridiculous.

They're the ones looking for my vote, and so there's nothing wrong with me getting them to sign a form containing one of my most important conditions and promising they'll represent me on that issue.

If they don't sign it, then they don't get the vote. It's pretty simple, really.

Coillte_Bhoy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm not being ridiculous.

They're the ones looking for my vote, and so there's nothing wrong with me getting them to sign a form containing one of my most important conditions and promising they'll represent me on that issue.

If they don't sign it, then they don't get the vote. It's pretty simple, really.

And do you really expect any of them to sign such a form?? They as individuals cant dictate what their party policy might be re the formation of a new govt.

tommy21

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm not being ridiculous.

They're the ones looking for my vote, and so there's nothing wrong with me getting them to sign a form containing one of my most important conditions and promising they'll represent me on that issue.

If they don't sign it, then they don't get the vote. It's pretty simple, really.

In fairness you won't be voting for anyone so! Nobody in this day and age is going to sign their name to a piece of paper you've drawn up. Its a noble idea and all that, but it would just seem as if you were trying to entrap them.

tommy21

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

They as individuals cant dictate what their party policy might be re the formation of a new govt.

And therein lies the problem with Irish (all?) politics....

Liam Byrne

tommy21 wrote: »

In fairness you won't be voting for anyone so! Nobody in this day and age is going to sign their name to a piece of paper you've drawn up. Its a noble idea and all that, but it would just seem as if you were trying to entrap them.

No entrapment, and no long-winded contract-style legalese.

Just a straightforward "I hereby undertake not to enter Government with FF, to actively oppose any suggestions by my party to enter Government with FF, and if my party does so I will resign from said party immediately".

And if no-one agrees to sign it then that's more of a reflection on them than me, and that alone would suggest that they don't have high enough standards for me to vote for them.

meditraitor

Eamonn Gilmore and the Labour party has on more than 1 occasion rubbished any chance of dealing with FF.......

FG however have never ruled it out completely.....

meditraitor

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gilmore-ff-must-be-put-out-of-government-466235.html

"The Labour Party is determined to put FF out of Government at the next Election and that will not change irrespective of who is leading Fianna Fail."


no mincing words here....... lets have FG come out with a statement I say!!!!!!

Panrich

Labour will not have forgotten how they were punished by the electorate for going into coalition with FF in 92.

geespot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It seems like the FF spin machine has moved on from "Don't vote for FG in case they 'do a Greens' and get into bed with us" and are now trying the same tactic with Labour.

I'll be asking for a cast-iron guarantee, written down, from any candidates that come canvassing, and I would suggest that everyone else do the same.

sure they definetly wouldnt lie

geespot

this is my worse nightmare. labour being part of the next goverment i would consider leaving or maybe just stay leave work and sign on

Liam Byrne

geespot wrote: »

sure they definetly wouldnt lie

Hence the need for the signatures. FF might be the worst of a bad lot by far, but I don't trust 99% of politicians and - as I said - that's why I need their key promise signed.

geespot

not worth the paper its written on just look back at what has happened all any party wants is to be in power at all costs

OhNoYouDidn't

As Panrich says, Labour will never forget what happened when they went in with FF in 92, and the sticky factor is now there.

Why would Labour offer them a lifeline? Bury them into opposition and watch their support evaporate as they can't play pump politics.

There are 4 permutations after the election, assuming the numbers are roughly the same as now, which I admit is an assumption in order I think of likelihood.

Lab / FG

FG / Lab

Lab / SF / ULA

FG / FF

OhNoYouDidn't

geespot wrote: »

not worth the paper its written on just look back at what has happened all any party wants is to be in power at all costs

And Labour have been there and bought the t-shirt. It has taken them 15 years to recover from the mauling they got last time they went in with FF. Zero chance they will risk it again.

Wide Road

Panrich wrote: »

Labour will not have forgotten how they were punished by the electorate for going into coalition with FF in 92.

Ah yes, the media latched onto the vote for change.
How did FG do in the 92 election?

Liam Byrne

Wide Road wrote: »

Ah yes, the media latched onto the vote for change.
How did FG do in the 92 election?

How is that question even remotely relevant to the thread? :rolleyes:

ninty9er

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'll be asking for a cast-iron guarantee, written down, from any candidates that come canvassing, and I would suggest that everyone else do the same.

No candidate can really give you that, unless they're part of the negotiating team. They will do what the majority within the party wants.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

No candidate can really give you that, unless they're part of the negotiating team. They will do what the majority within the party wants.

Well then, as I said, that's their problem.

If they want my vote to represent me and I have 3 or 4 issues - including absolutely excluding FF & SF from any negotiations re government - that I hold as essentials in someone representing me, then they have to be able to represent me.

Plus, I'm giving them 2 choices : (a) promise that their party won't betray me OR (b) resign from the party if it does.

So I'm being 100% fair, since there's obviously only one of those that I want, but if that fails I want the candidate to show that they are ethical.

ArtSmart

later10 wrote: »

It would be a bad political move for both FF and Labour in the long run. FF need a period of time on the opposition benches. Labour should have learned from their last encounter with FF, though it would be interesting to hear Gilmore deny it outright.

dunno. used to think the same. but look at it from labour's viewpoint.

if they need only one party FF, minus, ahern (both), dempsey, brian lenihan (to all intents and purposes), cowen, coughlan, harney and that other twat hanifin - will be very much a timid beast. Micheal Martin wud be accepted as a minister/Tánaiste and Lenny will prob get something harmless enough (agri /art), would be controllable.

gilmore mentioned his FF background - when FF was deemed a 'people's party' - back in the day).
FF policies believe it or not, would be more aligned to Labour than FG.

and FF 'new breed' would behave, remember, psychologically it's unthinkable for them to be out of power, so they will not rock the boat in order to cling on - with future hopes of rebuilding.

It's one thing being the minority party with FF, very different if you're the majority.

overall if they only needed FF, it would offer them more stability than other options (incl SF) and more control than being involved with FG.

i think both parties know this, and would expect a bit of a scrap before. the election between them (more than originally expected) because, rest assured, FG will take the same option ( a changed FF as junior partner) if the numbers add up.

Liam Byrne

ArtSmart wrote: »

FF policies believe it or not, would be more aligned to Labour than FG.

later10 earlier said that FF don't have policies......I'm confused now!

ArtSmart

Liam Byrne wrote: »

later10 earlier said that FF don't have policies......I'm confused now!

well tbh, a political party doesnt really need policies, they tend to get in the way - just a 'general direction' (cynical , i know, but true)

ArmaniJeanss

They can use the 'will of the people' line.

Like if Labour get 50, FF 45, FG 35, SF 25, and 22 assorted others, they can say that as much as they don't want to go into government with FF that such an outcome is clearly and categotically what the electorate has voted for.


(I know those figures are a relatively unlikely outcome at this stage).

irishh_bob

reasons why it would be a good move for labour

gilmore would be taoiseach as even labour got less seats than FF , FF would give labour anything they wanted in order to stay in goverment

labour would have more freedom to impose thier style of goverment in a coalition with FF

labour have more in common with FF , both are fond of big govement and fond of currying favour with those who work for the state and thier union reps

reasons why it wouldnt be a good move for labour = all thier talk of honesty and integrity would proove to have been much less important to them than naked politcal ambition

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It seems like the FF spin machine has moved on from "Don't vote for FG in case they 'do a Greens' and get into bed with us" and are now trying the same tactic with Labour.
...

Last week it was a thread about FG and ff.
Next week it will be ff and sf.

annoyingbeast wrote: »

i think it'll be either a fg/sf coalition or a lab/sf coalition, ff have too much a bad image, and i think labour and fg are too different to go in together. i think this new left alliance thing is gonna get more votes then expected, and the greens are going to be crucified.

What planet are you on where Lab and sf would have enough seats to form a government ?
Ah yes the grand left alliance planet where miracolously we don't need to borrow money yet we can continue the same level of public spending/wastage and all the money comes from taxing the rich. :rolleyes:

irishh_bob wrote: »

reasons why it would be a good move for labour

gilmore would be taoiseach as even labour got less seats than FF , FF would give labour anything they wanted in order to stay in goverment

labour would have more freedom to impose thier style of goverment in a coalition with FF

labour have more in common with FF , both are fond of big govement and fond of currying favour with those who work for the state and thier union reps

reasons why it wouldnt be a good move for labour = all thier talk of honesty and integrity would proove to have been much less important to them than naked politcal ambition

they have similar mindsets on some policies like public spending but you forgot the big reason why it would be VERY VERY bad for Labour to touch ff.
They are toxic and the last time Labour got into bed with them the tide went out come the next election.
BTW gilmore appears to have links with nearly every political party that ever existed in the state.

geespot

love to know where labour or going to win all these seats that going to see eamon gilmore being taoiseach

ArtSmart

geespot wrote: »

love to know where labour or going to win all these seats that going to see eamon gilmore being taoiseach

40 lab, 30 FF, 7 SF, and 3 Greens + Jackie's son.

how's dat for a rainbow?

Sierra Oscar

At this stage, I would expect that FF don't even have the appetite for governance anymore. You know things are bad if that's the case!

Killer Pigeon

ArtSmart wrote: »

40 lab, 30 FF, 7 SF, and 3 Greens + Jackie's son.

how's dat for a rainbow?

Joan Burton made it very clear that Labour aren't willing to go into coalition with Sinn Féin. Personally, I couldn't imagine Labour going into government with Fianna Fáil. I don't think they'd be so stupid not to realise that a coalition with Fianna Fáil is nothing more than a death trap. Similarly I could never imagine Sinn Féin being willing to join FF either.

Pherekydes

ArtSmart wrote: »

40 lab, 30 FF, 7 SF, and 3 Greens + Jackie's son.

how's dat for a rainbow?

Still a few short. You need 84.

Greens won't win 3 seats. Labour won't go into Govt with the eFFers or any Healy-Rae.

Other coalitions, besides LP/FG, are a non-runner:

LP/SF: not enough seats, even in the best case scenario.

Anyone and FF: nobody wants to touch the FF poison.

FG + others: Probably unworkable.

FG and LP has worked in the past and will work this time too, because all their supporters want it to. Any eFFer-focused media types trying to drive a wedge between them will fail miserably.

View

Pherekydes wrote: »

Anyone and FF: nobody wants to touch the FF poison.

Think again.

The electorate will get to decide the composition of the next Dail. After that, ALL options will be open if the math is there.

No sane politican is going to risk an early election (and possible loss of their job/income) when they could have Ministerial office by smiling sweetly at whatever party was/is today's hate figure for them.

So choose your TDs wisely...

Pherekydes

View wrote: »

Think again.

The electorate will get to decide the composition of the next Dail. After that, ALL options will be open if the math is there.

LP were in coalition with FF back in the 90's. We know what happened at the following election. It's not going to happen again, no matter how loudly FF supporters squeal about it.

ArtSmart

Pherekydes wrote: »

Still a few short. You need 84.

ha ha, forgot a couple of indies. my bad.

Greens won't win 3 seats. Labour won't go into Govt with the eFFers or any Healy-Rae.

Other coalitions, besides LP/FG, are a non-runner:

LP/SF: not enough seats, even in the best case scenario.

Anyone and FF: nobody wants to touch the FF poison.

FG + others: Probably unworkable.

FG and LP has worked in the past and will work this time too, because all their supporters want it to. Any eFFer-focused media types trying to drive a wedge between them will fail miserably.

all is fair in love and politics. apparently.