Am I right is this?.....

Anchises

I'm not in range of any main transmitter. I receive RTE1/2/TG4 from a relay station (no TV3)
I receive them in analogue obviously, from a rooftop arial.
I also have FTA from 28.2E by sat dish.


My understanding is that:

When analogue is terminated, I will not get digital through the relay station. I will need an STB to get DTT, but I would get it from a sat (@ 8E?) (yet to be launched?).

To do that I need a sat dish about 80Cm and an LNB (KaBand), and another STB.
The STB should be HD and must be DVB-T2 standard ?
(But doesn't the T in T2 mean Terrestrial ?)
(Can we still call it terrestrial if it from a SAT ?)

I can get a combined STB to replace the existing one (non-HD). I expect the STB (combo?) would give me access to both sets of channels with one remote control.

And to continue to get the 28.2E FTA channels, I need to retain my existing dish/lnb and link to comboSTB.

I've read so much of the threads in this forum, my head is spinning

Is my understanding correct ?


A.

STB

Where in Cork are you ? Where do you get your analogue from now ? You should have no problem picking up DTT (aka Digital/Saorview) in Cork, there are loads of sites. They are on right now, so you can switch now. You get RTE1, RTE 2 HD, Tv3, 3e, TG4, RTE News Now. The picture is crystal towards analogue.

First off forget T2 boxes (they are for people in the border area of N ireland and in Wexford who get overspill from UK) through an aerial. It doesnt apply to 90% of the country. The UK use T2 for HD channels.

Combo HD Box

If you want DTT and British satellite channels on one remote in one channel list you need a HD Combo box. This allows you connect your existing dish to it and also connect your aerial to it. Look at the back picture and it shows ports for both. You dont need anything else. You can use your other older satellite boxes in other rooms if you have the cable run and an existing quad LNB.

Get a Ferguson Ariva HD Combo €169. satellite.ie
Front

Back

Anchises

I'm in Glanmire CORK - virtually below sealevel.
I cannot access Mullaghanish or SpurHill or Collins Barracks

I get analogue from Glanmire Relay Station.

A.

Anchises

If you want DTT and British satellite channels on one remote in one channel list you need a HD Combo box. This allows you connect your dish to it and also connect your aerial to it. Look at the back picture and it shows ports for both.

But I will NEVER get Digital from Glanmire ?
I understood that's why the SAt is launched - to cater for us 5% marginals ?



Also I've just read the spec on sat.ie for the model and it sounds like the job alright save it does not do teletext. Since I'm quite deaf I frequently
need to turn it on, (much to the annoyance of my sons). Is there no solution to this ?

A.






A.

STB

There is a DTT (Digital Terrestrial Television/Saorview) transmitter in Glanmire. It is on right now, apparently. Post 11 below.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69597612

What TV do you currently have ? Model ? If it is a recent LCD it may already have the required Digital Tuner.

Otherwise you can replace your existing satellite only box with the ferguson linked above.

I would suggest that as it will save you buying a Saorview(DTT) box which only does DTT and is €100. And that ferguson do both in one channel list including HD satellite channels.

You mean Subtitles ? Rather than teletext ? The ferguson does subtitles (when they are being broadcast).

Anchises

Yikes !!!!!

I just tuned in digital and I do have a digital signal from Glanmire - Sound only - But that's because my TV is a Sony Bravia without an MPEG4 decoder !

Also a lot of radio channels...

But why the sat then ? I thought it was intended for those who could not get signals from a main transmitter and that there was no plan to go digital on most (if not all) of the relay stations. Boy did i get it wrong !


So I don't need a new satdish.
Just a combo STB

Now how do i solve the subtitle requirement if no teletext on the combo recommended above ?
Is there a more advanced box that will do subtitles ? Or are subtitles gone to some non-teletext standard and available on it ?



A.

STB

Anchises wrote: »

Yikes !!!!!

I just tuned in digital and I do have a digital signal from Glanmire - Sound only - But that's because my TV is a Sony Bravia without an MPEG4 decoder !

Also a lot of radio channels...

But why the sat then ? I thought it was intended for those who could not get signals from a main transmitter and that there was no plan to go digital on most (if not all) of the relay stations. Boy did i get it wrong !


So I don't need a new satdish.
Just a combo STB

Now how do i solve the subtitle requirement if no teletext on the combo recommended above ?
Is there a more advanced box that will do subtitles ? Or are subtitles gone to some non-teletext standard and available on it ?


A.

Well thats good news then. It will mean that you will also have TV3 and 3e for the first time down that neck of the woods free to air. There are 51 sites, some of the harder to reach areas will require the sat solution (its a small percentage). Luckily not the people of Glanmire. Tell all the neighbours.

Subtitles would be on that box.

What you wont get is fancy text (called MHEG5). You will get Aertel type text on it though.

Also there is a button for subtitles to turn on/off etc.

Here is the remote control (yellow button).

http://images.dipol.com.pl/pict/a99381+++++++.jpg

Anchises

Sound for TV3 *is* coming through ! Good !

Good on the subtitles too.

Thanks for finally clarifying all those issues for me


A.

STB

Anchises wrote: »

Sound for TV3 *is* coming through ! Good !

Good on the subtitles too.

Thanks for finally clarifying all those issues for me


A.

No problem. "Tony" is the owner of satellite.ie He sells those Fergusons. He posts here regularly - more over in the satellite forum - he will tell you the ins and outs of the subtitles etc. Think he does discounts for Boardsies. Send him a PM. He posts as Tony.

I am not on commission by the way!

rurs

Anchises wrote: »

Yikes !!!!!

Now how do i solve the subtitle requirement if no teletext on the combo recommended above ?
Is there a more advanced box that will do subtitles ? Or are subtitles gone to some non-teletext standard and available on it ?

A.

Unfortunately, the teletext implementation on the Ferguson is a bit flaky, and this affects subtitles on Saorview. They lag behind the speech noticeably, don't disappear during silence, and generally don't update quickly enough, often missing lines.

The mainstream satellite channels use a different system (DVB) and this seems to work well. I don't know if RTE/TV3 have any plans to go to DVB, until they do (or until Ferguson sort out teletext), I wouldn't recommend the Ferguson if subtitles are important to you for the Irish channels.

Other than that, it's a decent receiver.

STB

Rurs

I know you have one of these. Are you taking about EBU text via 888 here or the subtitles button (DVB) ?

RTE are using DVB for subtitles and have been for some time.

Down the road MHEG5 could be used for subtitles. Infact as you say if the Ferguson is crap at the subtitling bit, perhaps the poster here should wait for the new Triax Combo which will also have MHEG5 (just in case RTE do use this for subtitles) it is in the spec.

rurs

I didn't realise RTE are using DVB, maybe it's not flagged correctly, as they're not showing up on the Ferguson (or on my Sagem Picnic).

If I press the yellow subtitle button on RTE1, I see two choices:

English(T)
English(T)

If I do this on BBC1, I get

English(D)
English(T)
English(T)

The (T) options shows 888 type subtitles, (D) is DVB. Pressing teletext, then going to 888 shows the same as (T).

There are no (D) options on any of the Irish channels, only (T).

What receiver are you using, STB, which shows DVB subs on Saorview?

At this stage, I think waiting to see what the Triax is like is the best option for anyone interested in a combo receiver. It can only be a matter of weeks until it's widely available, I presume.

The Cush

rurs wrote: »

I didn't realise RTE are using DVB, maybe it's not flagged correctly, as they're not showing up on the Ferguson (or on my Sagem Picnic).

They've been broadcasting DVB subtitles since at least last Feb and probably longer - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055784700.

Anchises

Thanks guys, that's all very helpful.

I will wait a while before deciding. It's not that I'm deaf, so much as unable to discriminate voices when there is a lot of background noise -say , as in war movies or sometimes even crowd scenes.

So you can see subtitles is a vital consideration.

Thanks again

A.

rurs

The Cush wrote: »

They've been broadcasting DVB subtitles since at least last Feb and probably longer - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055784700.

Just to labour the point;)

They may be broadcasting them, but I'm not receiving them..

I had a quick look at a Walker STB this evening...pressing the subtitles button brought up VBI/EBU subtitles. Very pixelated on a large LCD panel. So something is wrong somewhere. Even in the earlier thread, it seemed not everyone was getting DVB.

To the OP: when you're ready to buy something, maybe start a thread asking specifically about subtitles on combo boxes, because it seems to be a bit hit and miss.

shakeymathuna

Can I ask what might appear to be a stupid question here. I recently purchased a Humax foxsat-hdr box which has mpeg-4. Stupid question-is it a combo box?
How will I know?:o

rurs

A combo box is so-called because it combines two different types of input - satellite and terrestrial.
The Humax you have is satellite only.
You can tell by looking at the writing on the front:) combo or combi is normally displayed quite prominently.
Failing that, look around the back. One (or two) inputs will be labeled LNB in, that's for satellite, another will be Antenna in, for the connection from an aerial.

Anchises

To the OP: when you're ready to buy something, maybe start a thread asking specifically about subtitles on combo boxes, because it seems to be a bit hit and miss.

I'll take that advice on board.

Thanks

A.

STB

rurs wrote: »

Just to labour the point;)

They may be broadcasting them, but I'm not receiving them..

I had a quick look at a Walker STB this evening...pressing the subtitles button brought up VBI/EBU subtitles. Very pixelated on a large LCD panel. So something is wrong somewhere. Even in the earlier thread, it seemed not everyone was getting DVB.

What is your understanding of how DVB subtitles work ?

When I press subtitles on my Ctech 5000c I have 2 choices. Off or English. What that does is pull 888 in the background. Its near enough spot on with the video. Perhaps a second out on live depending on who is typing I guess.

The DVB Subtitling process in laid down in ISO/IEC 13818-1. For the PMT the value '0x06' shall be used for stream_type for any PID carrying
DVB subtitle data. (This indicates a PES carrying private data). In the PMT each PID carrying DVB subtitle data shall be associated with at least one subtitling descriptor.

Yeah ? i am confused as to what you are expecting ? Its the font isnt it! You dont like the Courier like typeface ?

Here is that entry from the PMT for the RTE Mux for say RTE1


<ES PID="1301" Name="Videotext">
<StreamType HValue="0x06" Name="Private Data PES (ITU-T Rec. H.222.0 | ISO/IEC 13818-1)"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x56" Name="Teletext">
<PageType Value="2" Name="Subtitles">
<Language String="eng"/>
<Magazin Value="8"/>
<Tens HValue="0x08"/>
<Units HValue="0x08"/>
<Number Value="888"/>
</PageType>
<PageType Value="1" Name="Initial Page">
<Language String="eng"/>
<Magazin Value="1"/>
<Tens HValue="0x00"/>
<Units HValue="0x00"/>
<Number Value="100"/>
</PageType>
</Descriptor>

Its an area I have never looked at before, but that is how RTE have implemented subtitling so far.

rurs

Thanks for posting the stream info, very informative. I have no way of doing this myself, as the Ferguson doesn't record subtitles, and I've no PC cards.

My understanding of DVB subtitles are that they are a stream of bitmaps and colour/region descriptors, completely separate from teletext.

The info you posted backs this up.
This line is the giveaway: Descriptor HValue="0x56" Name="Teletext"

If RTE were really broadcasting DVB subtitles, this would read: Descriptor HValue="0x59" Name="Subtitles"

Only in the sense that teletext is included within the DVB standard can RTE be described as broadcasting DVB subtitles.

If you could post something similar for, say, BBC 1 England, I'd be very interested to see it.

watty

rurs wrote: »

I had a quick look at a Walker STB this evening...pressing the subtitles button brought up VBI/EBU subtitles. Very pixelated on a large LCD panel.

How the subtitles look depend on the client implementation. Unless they are actually "hard subtitles" part of the image the font is generated locally. The actual transmitted data is just text.

On DVB there are two methods of actually putting the data in a stream. One is backward compatible with Teletext. If your set-box re-inserts teletext into the VBI lines of the picture, then selection on the TV remote (not set-box) of 888 will give subtitles. The Sky box does this. If the non-VBI compatible subtitling is used, then on a Sky box you can only see subtitles by subtitle selection on the Sky Box. If it's intended as VBI, then the Sky box prompts you to select Text and 888 on TV remote, Thus you need a Teletext TV for VBI type subtitles on a Skybox.

On other set-boxes selecting subtitles "works" no matter which method is used. Also often these boxes will decode store entire teletext carousel and can display without a Teletext TV. The Skybox doesn't do this. It just re-inserts the teletext stream as VBI data in the blank analogue picture lines (SCART and not HDMI).

The appearance of either method of subtitles displayed by a setbox depends on the Set-box. The transmission does not include the appearance.

I'll have a look later to see what Saorview and Sky have in the way of Subtitles for RTE. It's a long while since I looked at Sky, last time I looked it was using VBI page 888 type system for RTE. I don't have a Sky sub now, but last time I looked the Teletext on RTE works without a viewing card. Only Audio/Video encrypted.

The Cush

RTÉ 2 HD doesn't carry traditional text and 888 subtitles but they are available thru the subtitle button on the remote.

STB

rurs wrote: »

Thanks for posting the stream info, very informative. I have no way of doing this myself, as the Ferguson doesn't record subtitles, and I've no PC cards.

My understanding of DVB subtitles are that they are a stream of bitmaps and colour/region descriptors, completely separate from teletext.

The info you posted backs this up.
This line is the giveaway: Descriptor HValue="0x56" Name="Teletext"

If RTE were really broadcasting DVB subtitles, this would read: Descriptor HValue="0x59" Name="Subtitles"

Only in the sense that teletext is included within the DVB standard can RTE be described as broadcasting DVB subtitles.
.

Em that is what RTE are doing. See the 0x06 descriptor. That is the DVB subtitle data descriptor. It is creating them from a private data carousel apparently. But I do see that teletext is being used as the method for delivery.

1.<StreamType HValue="0x06" Name="Private Data PES (ITU-T Rec. H.222.0 | ISO/IEC 13818-1)"/>

2.<Descriptor HValue="0x56" Name="Teletext">

3.<PageType Value="2" Name="Subtitles">

The Cush

@ STB
Can you post the stream data for RTÉ 2 HD re subtitles?

STB

Heres the PMT for RTE 2,

<ServiceID Value="1102" Name="RTÉ Two"> VIDEO
<PMT PID="1902">
<PCR PID="8190"/>
<ES PID="1102" Name="H.264 Video">
<StreamType HValue="0x1B" Name="H.264 Video (ITU-T Rec. H264 | ISO/IEC 14496-10)"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x28" Name="AVC Video">
<Profile HValue="0x4D" Name="Main"/>
<Set0ConstraintFlag Value="0"/>
<Set1ConstraintFlag Value="1"/>
<Set2ConstraintFlag Value="0"/>
<CompatibleFlags HValue="0x00"/>
<Level HValue="0x28" Name="4.0"/>
<StillPicture Value="0"/>
<24HourPictureFlag Value="0"/>
</Descriptor>
</ES>
<ES PID="1001" Name="Data"> MHEG5
<StreamType HValue="0x0B" Name="ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x52" Name="Stream Identifier">
<ComponentTag Value="11"/>
</Descriptor>
<Descriptor HValue="0x13" Name="Carousel Identifier">
<CarouselID HValue="0x00000001"/>
<FormatID HValue="0x00"/>
<FormatSpecifier HValue="0x66"/>
</Descriptor>
<Descriptor HValue="0x66" Name="Data Broadcast ID">
<DataBroadcastID HValue="0x0106"/>
<SelectorLength Value="4"/>
<Selector Dump="01 01 00 00"/>
</Descriptor>
</ES>
<ES PID="1202" Name="MPEG Audio"> AUDIO
<StreamType HValue="0x04" Name="MPEG Audio (ISO/IEC 13818-3)"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x0A" Name="ISO 639 Language">
<Language String="eng"/>
<AudioType Value="0" Name="Not defined"/>
</Descriptor>
</ES>
<ES PID="1212" Name="MPEG Audio"> ALT AUDIO
<StreamType HValue="0x04" Name="MPEG Audio (ISO/IEC 13818-3)"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x0A" Name="ISO 639 Language">
<Language String="nar"/>
<AudioType Value="0" Name="Not defined"/>
</Descriptor>
</ES>
<ES PID="1302" Name="Videotext"> SUBTITLES/VIDEOTEXT
<StreamType HValue="0x06" Name="Private Data PES (ITU-T Rec. H.222.0 | ISO/IEC 13818-1)"/>
<Descriptor HValue="0x56" Name="Teletext">
<PageType Value="2" Name="Subtitles">
<Language String="eng"/>
<Magazin Value="8"/>
<Tens HValue="0x08"/>
<Units HValue="0x08"/>
<Number Value="888"/>
</PageType>
</Descriptor>
</ES>
</PMT>

watty

STB wrote: »

Em that is what RTE are doing. See the 0x06 descriptor. That is the DVB subtitle data descriptor. It is creating them from a private data carousel apparently. But I do see that teletext is being used as the method for delivery.

1.<StreamType HValue="0x06" Name="Private Data PES (ITU-T Rec. H.222.0 | ISO/IEC 13818-1)"/>

2.<Descriptor HValue="0x56" Name="Teletext">

3.<PageType Value="2" Name="Subtitles">

No subtitles on RTE2 just right now. On LG 42LD450 TV the RTE1 subtitles from DTT are delivered as Teletext 888, using courier font by TV, not particularly pixelated, but the TV isn't generating anti-aliased font either.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

No subtitles on RTE2 just right now.

They were available on an earlier programme.

If I'm reading STB post correctly even though traditional teletext is not being broadcast with RTÉ 2 HD, page 888 subtitles are but not available thru the teletext button on a non MHEG-5 TV only thru the subtitle button.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

They were available on an earlier programme.

If I'm reading STB post correctly even though traditional teletext is not being broadcast with RTÉ 2 HD, page 888 subtitles are but not available thru the teletext button on a non MHEG-5 TV only thru the subtitle button.

From what I can see the subtitling setup mirrors the 888 teletext or is the one and the same......its shortcutting to it according to that PID.

rurs

So 0x06 is the general DVB descriptor for subtiltles. Within that, a broadcaster can choose 0x56 (using teletext) or 0x59 (using overlaid graphics).

RTE are using 0x56, nothing wrong with that, maybe they haven't got around o generating 0x59, and are sticking with 0x56 across all platforms (ATT, DTT and Sky).

My original reason in posting in this thread was to point out that a particular receiver didn't do teletext well, threfore subtitles on Saorview weren't great.

If and when RTE switch to 0x59 (which I would call "DVB subtitles"), then the Ariva might be an option.

Anyway, Happy New Year to one and all, if I learn as much here next year as I have this year I'll be very happy, and sometimes confused, but eventually it'll all make sense:D

watty

The Cush wrote: »

They were available on an earlier programme.

If I'm reading STB post correctly even though traditional teletext is not being broadcast with RTÉ 2 HD, page 888 subtitles are but not available thru the teletext button on a non MHEG-5 TV only thru the subtitle button.

yes. That's my understanding and experience, Windows7 Media Centre, ProgDVB, "total Media 3.5" and LG 42LD450 TV directly. The TV puts an 888 box in top left when a program without subtitles is on "RTE 2 HD". The 888 vanishes when subtitles are running.