Gas free of rental charge

superfly35

Hi Lads,

I am wondering if it is possible in ireland to get gas bottle oxygene/acetylene without paying rental in BOC.

I know that in the UK and in France it is possible to buy bottle, and to get them filled without any problem and it is legal.

But it seems that in Ireland we need to pay a rental, which is quite expensive for a DIY/hobby welder.

I would like to pratice on gas welding so it is why I am wondering this.

Cheers
Superfly

gn3dr

superfly35 wrote: »

Hi Lads,

I am wondering if it is possible in ireland to get gas bottle oxygene/acetylene without paying rental in BOC.

I know that in the UK and in France it is possible to buy bottle, and to get them filled without any problem and it is legal.

But it seems that in Ireland we need to pay a rental, which is quite expensive for a DIY/hobby welder.

I would like to pratice on gas welding so it is why I am wondering this.

Cheers
Superfly

Unfortunately I don't think we have a choice here - it's either Air Products or BOC and both charge rental. What isn;t publicised too well though is that Air Products have rental rates that are geared towards the hobbyist - they have an annual rental charge instead of a monthly rising rate. I think I am paying about €110 per year per bottle (Argoshield and Argon in my case)

stezie

Is there a way to buy the bottle from a dealer in the North I wonder?

wildefalcon

I don't think that BOC would touch it.

I'm charged about 100 per annum for a half sized argoshield from BOC, plus the refill cost.

What really gets me is that if I run out on a Saturday I'm stuck. I'd buy a second bottle so that I could have a spare. But no chance.

All sewn up.

stezie

It say a calor domestic sized bottle would do me.. Id only be learning to weld with the odd job about the house and a crapper of a car that needs an arch welded in for nct.. i wouldnt touch my good car.

deckie27

stezie wrote: »

It say a calor domestic sized bottle would do me.. Id only be learning to weld with the odd job about the house and a crapper of a car that needs an arch welded in for nct.. i wouldnt touch my good car.

Why not go gasless?

galwaytt

deckie27 wrote: »

Why not go gasless?

You can't MIG or TIG without gas, either. What kind of welding are you thinking of ?

DF1

There's a crowd in UK alright that do rent free gas, small cylinders too, works like the general calor gas household system.
Contacted them a while ago to see about setting up as an agent for them here, they were interested but when i did a few sums you would need a series amount of customers to make it pay.
say customers only filled twice a year, i figured that I'd have to do shift around 200 refills a week, thats 10,000 a year, very simplified that's a need for around 5000 customers ! Don't think it'll catch on here, market is too small.
On the rental from BOC/Air Products, AFAIK it takes them around 8 years to get the price of the bottle back on rental when the account for testing, re-painting etc.

Abelloid

galwaytt wrote: »

You can't MIG or TIG without gas, either. What kind of welding are you thinking of ?

MIG with flux core is gasless. The other option is disposable bottles, but they can last only minutes when setting up, terrible for learning to weld with.

Shop around, I used Irish Oxygen and although I can't remember the exact prices I do remember it was very cheap, I have a figure of €65 p.a. in my head for a half size bottle.

http://www.irishoxygen.com/contact-us/contact-details.html

EDIT: Sorry, I just spotted oxygen/acetylene.. I though you meant MIG/Argon.

deckie27

galwaytt wrote: »

You can't MIG or TIG without gas, either. What kind of welding are you thinking of ?

opps.

Sorry i was mistaken

superfly35

DF1 wrote: »

There's a crowd in UK alright that do rent free gas, small cylinders too, works like the general calor gas household system.
Contacted them a while ago to see about setting up as an agent for them here, they were interested but when i did a few sums you would need a series amount of customers to make it pay.
say customers only filled twice a year, i figured that I'd have to do shift around 200 refills a week, thats 10,000 a year, very simplified that's a need for around 5000 customers ! Don't think it'll catch on here, market is too small.
On the rental from BOC/Air Products, AFAIK it takes them around 8 years to get the price of the bottle back on rental when the account for testing, re-painting etc.

DF1, if you ever change your mind I will be your first customer and I am sure not the last one.

I think the rental think is really not DIY user friendly :mad:

Maybe if you were having a system for rental and no rental you could get a bigger market.

JustinOval wrote: »

MIG with flux core is gasless. The other option is disposable bottles, but they can last only minutes when setting up, terrible for learning to weld with.

Shop around, I used Irish Oxygen and although I can't remember the exact prices I do remember it was very cheap, I have a figure of €65 p.a. in my head for a half size bottle.

http://www.irishoxygen.com/contact-us/contact-details.html

EDIT: Sorry, I just spotted oxygen/acetylene.. I though you meant MIG/Argon.

I have looked at irishoxygene and it is only arround Cork area. So it won't work for me.


I have spotted another crowd gascoIreland which are doing oxy/ace but I have asked for their price twice I even went to the shop and they could not answer my question.... although pretty basic....

superfly35

I found a crowd whom is doing it.

It is a new product they do, I use them before for my welding supply.

http://www.wholesaleweldingsupplies.ie/index.php?route=product/product&path=406&product_id=1107

I have no connection with those guys, but I thought I will post here as I was looking for it and could not find it.

It is now available one year of rental to BOC will pay for the cylinder....

I think it is the same price as BOC on the refill.

Maybe one day they will do oxygen/acetylene, I will be definitely taking some.
I will also take some of those when my actual bottle will be empty.

Hope it helps somebody. If someone hear of another crowd doing post a link or a reference I am sure it will become handy.

trevorbrady

I'm in the same boat, I've just bought a MIG welder this week (Jebbtools.ie btw, good prices) and need to set up with gas for it. For the amount I'd use a BOC rental account would be money wasted so that WWS €130 gas bottle linked above looks like it might be the job.

however, it states the gas quantity is 1370litres for €130, so approximately 10c per litre for the inital bottle and about 4c per litre for the subsequent refills. How does that compare to the large/small BOC bottles?

If I were to go with the BOC system, when you initially set up do you pay rental plus refill charge together on day one and then rental every year and refill charge as you need them?

macplaxton

trevorbrady wrote: »

If I were to go with the BOC system, when you initially set up do you pay rental plus refill charge together on day one and then rental every year and refill charge as you need them?

That's the way I remember it costing out. Well the refill charge was made of up the refill and some delivery fee and something else. Bit like Ryanair. :pac:

superfly35

trevorbrady wrote: »

I'm in the same boat, I've just bought a MIG welder this week (Jebbtools.ie btw, good prices) and need to set up with gas for it. For the amount I'd use a BOC rental account would be money wasted so that WWS €130 gas bottle linked above looks like it might be the job.

however, it states the gas quantity is 1370litres for €130, so approximately 10c per litre for the inital bottle and about 4c per litre for the subsequent refills. How does that compare to the large/small BOC bottles?

If I were to go with the BOC system, when you initially set up do you pay rental plus refill charge together on day one and then rental every year and refill charge as you need them?

With BOC, it will cost you €9 every month and €60 for refill for a Y size bottle which equivalent to the wws one, I think.
So in about 1 year you would have paid for your own cylinder. I think for DIY it is a lot better to have your own bottle and not rental.
I don't weld everyday, so I don't want to paid every month for something I use sometimes only.
With a BOC account you can't do something simple like getting the bottle do your work and bring it back when you have finished, you will be charge the full bottle even if you are bring it back half full.

And you need to collect the bottle otherwise it is dearer, obviously.

trevorbrady

thanks I'm really leaning towards the WWS bottle, since I would only be welding in a hobby capacity it would be extremely sporadic. There could be weeks or even months on a stretch where I wouldn't need it but on the other hand there could be weeks where I would use it every day. I reckon the WWS is a better setup and more economical for my needs

superfly35

That is also my conclusion.

I have not touch my mig for about 3 month, I will use it more over the winter I think.

My dad as an oxy/acy setup free of rental and it is great to have around in the garage, however if you have to pay the rental you would not go for this as it is away to dear.

Let us know how you will get on with the wws bottle.

Cheers

Robin Leidig

Like to hear about wws bottle ,need some argon, i rent a big bottle of argoshield but its paying off

rinarally

Unlicensed bottles will not be available in Oxy or Acetylene as they are explosive gases.. Argon and CO2 on the other hand are inert.. That is how the system works and why they aren't charging rental...

superfly35

For information, you can find in Ireland oxy/ace free of rental without problem using the company Irish oxygen.

It is perfectly legal, the price of the setup is expensive thought about €750 for the 2 bottle.

There should be the possibility of finding oxygen bottle soon free of rental not with WWS, but with somebody else I will let you know when I know more.

I hope it helps.

rinarally

Jaysus €750 for the two bottles? Torch and bits on top of that....

superfly35

Yeah I suppose the way to look at it, it is equivalent of 2 years of rental.
But it is still not a good alternative for hobbiest like us.

Will seen maybe soon we will have more competor in Ireland.

superfly35

Hi everyone,

I found a gas free rental Argon Mix/Argon/Oxygen in Ireland.
http://www.southwestgassupplies.co.uk/distributors.html#Ireland

I have no connection to them, I just thought some people may find a good alternative to the rental.

They don't seems to have distributor around Co.Dublin.

I hope it helps.

superfly35

Hi lads,

I just found another welding gas (http://www.griffin-engineering-supplies.com) free of rental.

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/tools/2756625

I hope it helps people, the price seems good as well.

135man

If you buy a rent free bottle of gas does that mean you own the bottle outright ?? Thinking of getting set up with mig

hi5

135man wrote: »

If you buy a rent free bottle of gas does that mean you own the bottle outright ?? Thinking of getting set up with mig

Yes, you buy the bottle first time.

macplaxton

My understanding is you don't own the bottle. You effectively put down a deposit against it on the first one.

You have it rent-free and without time restriction. The ownership lies with the company you got it from and they are responsible for the maintenance/testing when it comes back to them for the refilling.

I can't find it on their site, but I'm sure a call would clarify it.

It's a bit like Calorgas cylinders, you never really own them as such, just stake a deposit on the first one and swap them over each time you need a refill with the same crowd (be it Calor or Flogas, etc.).

Testacalda

Browns Motor factors in Kildare town

macplaxton

I got one from there, but then again, I'm Co Kildare also.

The stockist map is here: http://www.stargas.ie/map/map.html

hi5

And more suppliers here, mostly Top Part..

http://www.sgsgases.co.uk/map/1?view=map&id=1

macplaxton

A bit sparse down here, but if you've a distributor on your doorstep then no problem.

Again, "rent free". You don't own the bottle, just have it on free permaloan.

Eugbug

135man wrote: »

If you buy a rent free bottle of gas does that mean you own the bottle outright ?? Thinking of getting set up with mig

Don't think so. In general, unless it's a disposable cylinder, the initial cost of the bottle is a deposit. The company who supplies/fills the bottle actually own it (just like Calor Gas butane and even milk bottles which were owned by Irish Glass:))

Eugbug

superfly35 wrote: »

Hi Lads,

I am wondering if it is possible in ireland to get gas bottle oxygene/acetylene without paying rental in BOC.

I know that in the UK and in France it is possible to buy bottle, and to get them filled without any problem and it is legal.

But it seems that in Ireland we need to pay a rental, which is quite expensive for a DIY/hobby welder.

I would like to pratice on gas welding so it is why I am wondering this.

Cheers
Superfly

This is an old thread, so you've probably come across WholesaleWeldingSupplies.ie by now. They sell welding/cutting/heating sets plus rent free bottles. They don't supply acetylene, but instead supply propylene which is an alternative. This is good for heating/brazing and even better than acetylene for cutting because the gas, although it burns slightly cooler, has more calorific (heating) energy in the flame. I got one of these oxy-propy sets from them for my home DIY workshop, and it's great for bending stuff and cutting. Unfortunately I discovered from Googling and reading stuff in welding forums that propylene isn't really suitable for welding because it doesn't shield the arc like the way oxy-acetylene does. So the weld ends up getting oxidised. The oxygen works out pricey (€49 + vat in 2015 for a refill) and in my case the cylinder only lasted about half an hour.

hi5

It's all semantics really, I have a bottle, they don't know me from Adam and never took any details from me, how would they get it back?

I don't think Calor give back deposits on their bottles.

gctest50

acetylene is more fun

Acetylene cylinder explosion
An operator was lighting an oxy/acetylene cutting torch. There was a flashback
to the acetylene cylinder, which started to vibrate. Three minutes later the
cylinder exploded. The cylinder split into two parts. The largest part shot
through a window and travelled 23 metres before embedding itself in an
embankment at the factory boundary.
The workshop was badly damaged. The windows were blown out and the roof
collapsed. The explosion also lifted the roof of the main factory building, which
had to be replaced.

Eugbug

gctest50 wrote: »

acetylene is more fun

Think I'll stick to my stick welding:)

Eugbug

Here's another horror story about the dangers of oxygen cylinders:
http://www.bioline.org.br/pdf?hs09011

Dan Jaman

A partial update on the state of rent-free welding gases in the country.
Looks like Top-Part have stopped offering SGS gases (although their catalogue mentions that gas is available should you buy a MIG from them).
Stargas don't even list their agents anymore on their website, but WWS is deffo still an outlet, and there are others, but how are we supposed to find them?
Something I intend to follow-up with BOC Ireland, is that BOC UK offer a Hobby User deal - still rental, but about half the price they were charging beforehand, which makes it suddenly fairly attractive if you use any amount at all.
Something that's worth knowing - most of the hobby rent-free bottles are only filled to 130bar or so. BOC fill theirs to 200bar (or even 230, iirc). That makes a worthwhile difference to the calculated cost of having it.

autumnalcore

Stargas say you can call them for local stockist: (063-20700) (option 2)

Hobbyweld have suppliers around the place,

https://www.hobbyweld.co.uk/agent-location-map

kadman

Stargas are a joke

unfit2006

I called in to my local Top Part this afternoon. The manager had plenty of Stargas in stock and knew nothing about any decision to stop stocking Stargas.

Dan Jaman

unfit2006 wrote: »

I called in to my local Top Part this afternoon. The manager had plenty of Stargas in stock and knew nothing about any decision to stop stocking Stargas.

No, Top Part used to offer SGS, not Stargas. Of the two, I'd have preferred SGS, except that my local Top Part was wanting an arm and leg for it. Given that Top Part and Stargas between them don't seem to want my business, I'll be dealing with the one in Galway.