Will a new government change the motor tax rates?

sollar

Hi,

With an election likely in march do people think they may alter the tax rates.

I'm thinking on changing in the new year, either something in the 2004 to 2005 age group or maybe even an 08. The current system makes getting a 2006 or 2007 model less attractive due to the motor tax rates (e.g. 1.9 diesel). Surely this is an anomoly and needs to be addressed.

Have any of the political parties mentioned changing this or should we be putting pressure on them when they call to the doors looking for votes?

Seweryn

sollar wrote: »

Hi,

With an election likely in march do people think they may alter the tax rates.

I'm thinking on changing in the new year, either something in the 2004 to 2005 age group or maybe even an 08. The current system makes getting a 2006 or 2007 model less attractive due to the motor tax rates (e.g. 1.9 diesel). Surely this is an anomoly and needs to be addressed.

I am sure that the first thing they do is they will keep the CO2 rates unchanged and they will just reduce the old engine size based tax rates (1.5 dm3 and up) to make the older cars more attractive and to help all the poor people keeping their cars on the road .

corktina

reduce taxes? Oh yeah, I should cocoa...

ottostreet

Seweryn wrote: »

I am sure that the first thing they do is they will keep the CO2 rates unchanged and they will just reduce the old engine size based tax rates (1.5 dm3 and up) to make the older cars more attractive and to help all the poor people keeping their cars on the road .

do you really believe that? It'd be great if they did, but I can't see them reducing tax rates.

ottostreet

ottostreet wrote: »

do you really believe that? It'd be great if they did, but I can't see them reducing tax rates.

He's obviously being sarcastic
Any crowd with sense would up the tax on the likes of 520d BMWs etc, anyone spending the guts of €50K on a car should be paying more than €100 odd / annum in road tax. The emissions based motor tax system is completely retarded, which is no surprise as the Green numpties were instrumental in it.

Seweryn

RoverJames wrote: »

He's obviously being sarcastic

Oh, no, I am being (very)optimistic. New Year is just around the corner and all that .

RoverJames wrote: »

Any crowd with sense would up the tax on the likes of 520d BMWs etc, anyone spending the guts of €50K on a car should be paying more than €100 odd / annum in road tax. The emissions based motor tax system is completely retarded, which is no surprise as the Green numpties were instrumental in it.

I absolutely agree with that. However the old motor taxation bands should be narrowed = the highest rates reduced significantly, as in the current economic climate they are just insane.

mullingar

I really doubt they will do anything to the cc based system.

(I wish they would as I'm currently paying €1300/yr on a 12 y.o. car)

They should have went the French way. No road tax, but a 20c tax (or so) on every litre of fuel in lieu of road tax. Pay as you use system

Seweryn

mullingar wrote: »

They should have went the French way. No road tax, but a 20c tax (or so) on every litre of fuel in lieu of road tax. Pay as you use system

Yeah, that is the most sensible system. It works well in France and in Poland. Polluters and heavy users pay more, as they use roads more. The only problem I can see is the price of fuel would go really high and we would have the most expensive fuels in EU.

sollar

The new emission based system is far to cheap on typical cars like 1.9 & 2.0 diesels etc. The old system is far to dear for the same motors.

Nonoperational

The tax system we have now is so stupid I can't think of any word strong enough to describe what I think of it.

sollar

gpf101 wrote: »

The tax system we have now is so stupid I can't think of any word strong enough to describe what I think of it.

Say by 2013 your in the market for a 2nd hand 1.9 or 2.0 car (pretty standard engine). By then cars in the new system will be 5 yrs old and much more affordable for average buyers. What is going to happen to 05,06 & 07 cars... they will need to be sold between €2000 and €4000 cheaper than the 08 models.

If you buy to keep for 3 years then that an extra €1200 to €1500 tax over them 3 years and then if you sell on the next buyer will want a similar discount or else why would he bother buying it either.

Its a farce... when the politicians call to your door in the new year give them an earful about it.

ninty9er

You can't blame the Green Party for implementing something that Fianna Fáil said it was going to do even before the election. There was a public consultation in which members of this forum took part. In fact, the department even extended the deadline for us.

Life isn't fair, get over it.

sollar

ninty9er wrote: »

Life isn't fair, get over it.

Thats a roll over and give up response if ever there was one. There are more people on the roads driving older cars than newer ones the run up to the general election is a good time to remind politicians that the system is a farce and batantly unfair.

Could they not pick a date and allow people opt into the new system regardless of the age of their car. Or increase the cost of the new system a little and lower the older one a little. I'm not looking for anything radical just a bit of fairness.

ninty9er

sollar wrote: »

Thats a roll over and give up response if ever there was one. There are more people on the roads driving older cars than newer ones the run up to the general election is a good time to remind politicians that the system is a farce and batantly unfair.

Could they not pick a date and allow people opt into the new system regardless of the age of their car. Or increase the cost of the new system a little and lower the older one a little. I'm not looking for anything radical just a bit of fairness.

The new system is more expensive for bigger polluters than the old one is for bigger engines.

I just replaced my 1.6 petrol Astra with a 1.8 petrol Mondeo. Under emissions I each attracts a rate of €630. They are pretty average cars. As it currently stands the Mondeo hits €551 and the Astra €445.

The system as introduced was not designed to favour anyone. The system favours low emissions cars. So buy owning a 2008 onwards 520d your annual motor tax is currently €156 or by owning a similar aged Yaris it is €104. If you own an older Yaris 1.0 it is €151, which is still quite cheap.

My attitude isn't one of roll over. It's one that appreciates the reality of the situation. Lots of rich people that drove big engined petrol cars have switched to lower polluting (co2/per km) models. The policy has worked. It was not designed to worry about prices, though the government attempted to rectify this through changing the VAT basis for dealers, which the SIMI (having requested it for years) did a last minute U-Turn on.

The new tax basis was not designed to make your owner experience cheaper, its purpose is to incentivise cleaner motoring. Looking at the stats (ignoring the manufacture as new cars get bought regardless) it is clear that this has worked.

Imagine a government policy that has worked and what do we do? Moan that it doesn't work well enough for our own particular individual situation.

sollar

If its truely based on emissions then why not allow older cars into the new system. Or pick a date and say that this will be allowed.

The government seem to be trying to encourage people away from petrol cars, they put the price of petrol up 4 c and diesel up 2 in the budget. Many of the 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 1.8, 1.9 & 2.0 ltr diesels are not big polluters. Plenty of decent cars that aren't going to be worth much in a couple of years.

Owen

The voice of Ogra Fianna Failure defends the current motor tax system, which oddly enough rewards the wealthy, and punishes the environment.

ninty9er

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The voice of Ogra Fianna Failure defends the current motor tax system, which oddly enough rewards the wealthy, and punishes the environment.

Nope. A voice who happens to be a member of Ógra Fianna Fáil explains how the motor tax system works.

Just because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean it's broken. The government did pick a date. It's 1 January 2008.

While emissions are available for older cars they are not always recorded on the VLC, and as such it would cost tens of millions to have each car properly categorised, between system changes, administration, re-issuing VLCs and what have you. If it were then to be truly emissions based you would have people who knew the cost at the time of purchase of for example a 2004 Huyndai Accent 1.6 Auto. This costs €445 to tax, but if vehicles were reassessed the owner of this vehicle would be expected to magic up an extra, entirely unexpected €605 every year to tax his or her car.

The current system allows certainty and encourages a replacement with lower CO2 emitting vehicles.

Owen

The system is most certainly broken. It encourages a replacement with lower Co2 emmitting vehicles - if you can afford it.

Not to mention the most basic fundamental about this entire situation. If the system was genuinely there to encourage is all to keep our emissions down, why then not tax the fuel and level the playing fields? The current Fianna Failure system will charge a person who owns a 25 year old large engined car who does maybe 5000 miles a year 1000 Euro+ for road tax. They then 'encourage' for example, companies to buy low emmission diesel cars, reward them with 156 Euro tax despite the fact that they're probably doing 40k miles a year, damaging the roads more, and damaging the environment more, not just with the compounded Co2 of driving more, but the environmental costs of produicing a new car whilst disposing of the old, and not to mention the toxic fumes that Diesel cars spew out including carcinogenic particulates, and are specifically harmful to animals causing heart and lung diseases.

A fair system indeed - like all FF policies, it rewards the fat cats, and keeps the average man down paying heavier taxes to subsidise the lifestyles of the FF cronies.

ninty9er

Adjusting motor tax rates isn't going to fix that, and just in case you hadn't noticed, this thread is about motor tax rates.

Owen

Adjusting motor tax rates so that motor tax is included in the fuel is the fairest system going. I'm sick to death of seeing reps tearing up and down the country in 2008-2010 diesel cars doing high mileage and getting rewarded with low taxes, while I see my mother in her 00 Polo 1.4 doing probably at most 2000 miles a year paying MORE tax. She's paying for the damage done to our roads cause by those who can afford to change their cars.

There's no fairness in the current 2 tiered system, but being a FF policy, we should never have expected that either.

Honestly, do posters think it's morally right, that those who can afford new cars, and yet do higher mileages in their cars be the ones who pay the least road tax? It's akin to saying those on minimum wage should pay the high rate of tax, and those on 100k a year should pay no tax. It's a kick in the balls for the average man.

ninty9er

As pointed out, there was a public consultation before this policy was decided. Polluter pays is fine by me, but the anomaly of north/south prices would lead to a lot of smuggling of fuel.

Owen

I don't think a public consultation happened in the right places with the right people, do you? Did Fianna Failure reach out to any motoring communities with the full facts? Did they my arse. Even when the system was brought in in 2008 (As you'll all remember), no one had a clue what the hell was going on. It took a few weeks of dissection here, and offline before we actually knew what was happening with the rates and bands. We were lucky enough here at the time to have the boardsie E92 who went to the trouble to detail everything out for us, and if he hadn't, things would have been more confusing. If things were that murky after the launch of the new rates, can you imagine the clarity displayed in the public consultation?

The current system is morally, and environmentally corrupt, and needs to be done away with. Just like the current Government. Good riddance.

sollar

I would be interested to know if any other modern western country has brought in something similar. I doubt it would have been accepted by their citizens.

ninty9er

The UK did it at the beginning of the decade.

Germany did it last year http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,603798,00.

Your indignant outrage does't make you right.

sollar

This is how the UK system changed (below). It is much fairer and doesn't lead to a situtation where someone (mondeo man was a term the uk loved) driving a fairly common car would end up paying 4 times as much tax for owning a one year older car. E.g a 2.0 ltr mondeo diesel.


Cars manufactured from 1973-2001
For cars registered between January 1, 1973 and March 1, 2001, tax is calculated according to engine size:

• Cars under 1549cc cost £115 per year.
• Cars over 1549cc cost £180 per year.

Post-2001 tax bands
For newer vehicles, there are seven lettered tax bands, which determine price.
The bands are measured by the amount of carbon dioxide your vehicle emits – with the lower the emission, the lower the tax cost.
However, band G only applies to cars registered after March 23, 2006.

Band
CO2 emission (g/km)
Cost
Example
A
Up to 100
N/A
Seat Ibiza Ecomotive
B
101-120
£35
Toyota Prius hybrid
C
121-150
£120
Citroën C5 1.6-litre diesel
D
151-165
£145
Peugeot 307 1.4-litre petrol
E
166-185
£170
Ford Mondeo saloon 1.8i-litre petrol
F
Over 186
£210
BMW 5 series estate 3.0-litre diesel
G
Over 226
£400
Jaguar X type saloon 2.0-litre petrol

I can't read the german link but i'd guess it was a much fairer transition than our one. The germans aren't quite as thick as our crew. The problem is not that we changed to the emissions system its how unfairly we ended up doing it.

Owen

The German article's giving a 404 Error as far as I can see from my end anyway.

Henry Ford III

ninty9er wrote: »

Your indignant outrage does't make you right.

Nor does your rather bizzare defense of yet another FF cockup.

Seweryn

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The German article's giving a 404 Error as far as I can see from my end anyway.

I think I found some sort of German CO2 calculator. Yes, it is a lot fairer and more logical. And what is more important - they have different rates for Diesel and petrol engined cars. And I believe, for Diesel engined cars higher rates apply.
http://www.co2-steuer.info/co2-rechner-berechnung-der-individuellen-co2-steuer.php
There is some more info here:
http://www.kfz-steuer.de/

BostonB

Older cars should be allowed to use the new 2008 rates if they want. This would encourage people to move to greener cars, but not penalize those with older cars with a new rate. I agree it should be part of fuel cost but with a affordable rate for business users.

Eric Cartman

that german system is far better, even on a 3 litre diesel that does 260 co2's its only 585 euro to tax it , germany is awesome

i like the UK too , pretty much any country that I can tax a band G (the only band that interests me) car for less than 600 euro is good enough for me

Seweryn

Eric Cartman wrote: »

that german system is far better, even on a 3 litre diesel that does 260 co2's its only 585 euro to tax it , germany is awesome

...And their autobahns without the speed limit and without charges. You can't beat it...

Eric Cartman

Seweryn wrote: »

...And their autobahns without the speed limit and without charges. You can't beat it...

i must improve my conversational german so, ive yet to see the downside of the father land

540 euro to tax a 750il , hmm strong consideration...

Anan1

Eric Cartman wrote: »

i must improve my conversational german so, ive yet to see the downside of the father land

540 euro to tax a 750il , hmm strong consideration...

Remember that motor tax and purchase price are linked on older cars - if you could tax a 750i here for €500 then you'd pay a lot more to buy it. In fact given the Irish obsession with tax the overall cost of ownership would probably be higher.

Jesh1

ninty9er wrote: »

The new system is more expensive for bigger polluters than the old one is for bigger engines.

I just replaced my 1.6 petrol Astra with a 1.8 petrol Mondeo. Under emissions I each attracts a rate of €630. They are pretty average cars. As it currently stands the Mondeo hits €551 and the Astra €445.

The system as introduced was not designed to favour anyone. The system favours low emissions cars. So buy owning a 2008 onwards 520d your annual motor tax is currently €156 or by owning a similar aged Yaris it is €104. If you own an older Yaris 1.0 it is €151, which is still quite cheap.

My attitude isn't one of roll over. It's one that appreciates the reality of the situation. Lots of rich people that drove big engined petrol cars have switched to lower polluting (co2/per km) models. The policy has worked. It was not designed to worry about prices, though the government attempted to rectify this through changing the VAT basis for dealers, which the SIMI (having requested it for years) did a last minute U-Turn on.

The new tax basis was not designed to make your owner experience cheaper, its purpose is to incentivise cleaner motoring. Looking at the stats (ignoring the manufacture as new cars get bought regardless) it is clear that this has worked.

Imagine a government policy that has worked and what do we do? Moan that it doesn't work well enough for our own particular individual situation.

HorseSh!t……..it’s purpose is to generate revenue. The Government don’t care about high polluting cars.
Step 1. Screw up the Tax system…….Piss Joe blogs off by crippling the value of his/her pre 08 model
Step 2. Scrappage Scheme………..ummm,i really should get rid of my high cost motor
Step 3. Increase fuel duty..........This car is becoming expensive, Better buy a new "efficient!" one.
If the government gave a crap about being green, running an old car is greener than buying a new one

Seweryn

Jesh1 wrote: »

If the government gave a crap about being green, running an old car is greener than buying a new one

That is very true. The main problem is that the average person is BS'ed by the talking heads that actually buying a new ("fuel efficient") car is the only way of saving the planet.

ninty9er

Jesh1 wrote: »

HorseSh!t……..it’s purpose is to generate revenue. The Government don’t care about high polluting cars.
Step 1. Screw up the Tax system…….Piss Joe blogs off by crippling the value of his/her pre 08 model
Step 2. Scrappage Scheme………..ummm,i really should get rid of my high cost motor
Step 3. Increase fuel duty..........This car is becoming expensive, Better buy a new "efficient!" one.
If the government gave a crap about being green, running an old car is greener than buying a new one

If you knew anything about the taxation system you wouldn't be able to take yourself seriously.

Jesh1

ninty9er wrote: »

Lots of rich people that drove big engined petrol cars have switched to lower polluting (co2/per km) models. The policy has worked.

You must be a retard so

Guy:Incognito

Eric Cartman wrote: »

, germany is awesome

awesome enough for you to want to pay other taxes like income tax at ther rates? or just the bits you pick and choose?

Tae laidir

Eric Cartman wrote: »

that german system is far better, even on a 3 litre diesel that does 260 co2's its only 585 euro to tax it , germany is awesome

i like the UK too , pretty much any country that I can tax a band G (the only band that interests me) car for less than 600 euro is good enough for me

Band G cars are dinosours - soon to be extinct.
The sooner the better - or we'll all be extinct!

Eric Cartman

Tae laidir wrote: »

Band G cars are dinosours - soon to be extinct.
The sooner the better - or we'll all be extinct!

everyone could drive a 750il for the rest of my lifetime without killing everyone , I have 60 or so years left on the planet and i intend to spend it all driving large >3 litre cars in the 'G' band , unless somehow as if by magic mercedes comes up with some way to put the 6.2L V12 into band F , then ill move down that ladder,

Owen

Tae laidir wrote: »

Band G cars are dinosours - soon to be extinct.

Cause Ireland says so? There are some Oil Sheiks/CEOs/Millionaire Playboys who'll be buying band G cars for a long time yet. Just cause Paddy has suddenly thought they're unenvironmental (Which is baloney), doesn't mean the rest of the world's lost its sanity.

-Chris-

Jesh1 wrote: »

You must be a retard so

Less of the personal insults please. Infracted.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I have 60 or so years left on the planet and i intend to spend it all driving large >3 litre cars in the 'G' band

You trading in the D max soon so ?

ninty9er

And just in case there's any doubting this was discussed here at the time:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055075189&page=3

Eric Cartman

RoverJames wrote: »

You trading in the D max soon so ?

the d-max will do for now (its a band G car if i paid private tax...) but im considering buying myself a 740 or similar (750 if i could find it) for my 22nd birthday next year