Icicles and snow falling on pedestrians in Naas

North Cork

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6b0yEpKni0&feature

Lads be carefull outhere look at MT's post re the thaw.

gbee

All I can do is echo the woman's cry OJC :eek:

WalterMitty

Who's liable if anyone injured in such circumstances?

bigpink

WalterMitty wrote: »

Who's liable if anyone injured in such circumstances?

No one i hope

Takeshi_Kovacs

Why would anyone be liable? Nature can be dangerous sometimes....

Jimmy Garlic

WalterMitty wrote: »

Who's liable if anyone injured in such circumstances?

Nobody, it is what is legally referred to as an 'act of god'.

Stinicker

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Nobody, it is what is legally referred to as an 'act of god'.

Another typical Irish cop out. In Germany householders are legally responsible for clearing ice and snow from their properties which is a danger to the public, falling icicles a particular danger.

Jimmy Garlic

Stinicker wrote: »

Another typical Irish cop out. In Germany householders are legally responsible for clearing ice and snow from their properties which is a danger to the public, falling icicles a particular danger.

Do you expect someone to go up on a roof and sweep it. Get real.

Stinicker

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Do you expect someone to go up on a roof and sweep it. Get real.

Houses and Businesses with a public pavement like in that video should be required to maintain safe levels of snow and ice so as to not endanger public safety, if there was young child under that ice collapse in Naas it could very well have been fatal.

http://www.german-way.com/ice-snow-removal.html

http://www.mieterverein-bochum.de/mietrecht/ratgeber/winterpflicht/
<(use google translator on it)

JackKelly

or don't walk your kids under street facing buildings when it's minus 5 with a foot of snow?

Jimmy Garlic

Stinicker wrote: »

Houses and Businesses with a public pavement like in that video should be required to maintain safe levels of snow and ice so as to not endanger public safety, if there was young child under that ice collapse in Naas it could very well have been fatal.

http://www.german-way.com/ice-snow-removal.html

http://www.mieterverein-bochum.de/mietrecht/ratgeber/winterpflicht/
<(use google translator on it)

Try to be realistic please. Who would climb a ladder to clear snow off the roof of the building in the video for example?. Think about that. Would you climb up there if it was your building?.

Columbia

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Do you expect someone to go up on a roof and sweep it. Get real.

That is precisely what they do in cold countries once a thaw comes about, yes. I went to Estonia at the beginning of last March and many streets were closed off by people shovelling snow from rooftops. And yes, they were as high up as the building in question. Why do you think Ireland is different?

TimAy wrote: »

or don't walk your kids under street facing buildings when it's minus 5 with a foot of snow?

Uh, what? So just leave the kids at home for 6 weeks then?

Italia

maybe its because I come from a different country (personal 'liability' lawsuits are deemed frivolous and not allowed, except in very very limited circumstances), but I don't understand why the ultimate responsibility lies on the private individual.
Where I come from, you are responsible for your own property - end of story. It is the state/ council's responsibility to clear footpaths and roads to ensure citizens can walk and drive safetly. If it is not on my property, why should I be responsible to clear out the state's land?

I was shocked at the poor service and the lack of forward planning demonstrated by the local councils since it started snowing. In the area where I live, the roads have never been plowed, let alone salted. I didn't expect salting, but at least plowing, just to clear the surface a bit. Even some more important roads were only plowed once a day (even though it snowed throughout the day).
From what I've seen and read in local and national newspapers, responses have been limited mainly to knee jerk reactions or a lot of hand wringing and much shoulder shrugging...
Back home a situation like the present, would have resulted in the responsible council officials (and councillors) being held fully accountable possibly to the extent of losing their jobs. Yet here it is simply accepted as something normal.
I'm sure we cannot be that different :eek: .....

rsom

North Cork wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6b0yEpKni0&feature

Lads be carefull outhere look at MT's post re the thaw.

Blown away by the swift reaction of the gardai sitting in the squad car:mad:

Grudaire

Italia wrote: »

I was shocked at the poor service and the lack of forward planning demonstrated by the local councils since it started snowing.

.....

But really now, how often does Ireland get snow like this? This year is the first (in my 21 years wandering around) that I have seen snow that wasn't washed away in 2-3 days.

I'm not willing to donate so much tax that the authorities will be preemptively able to deal with freak acts of nature.

MagicMarker

Columbia wrote: »

That is precisely what they do in cold countries once a thaw comes about, yes.

This was on the 23rd, when there was no thaw.

Italia

I have no idea on the long term weather conditions in Ireland. I've only been here 8 years and this is the 2nd year running where there have been problems. Old timers, where I work, tell me that heavy snow was fairly normal in the old days. I really have no way to prove or disprove these claims.
Having said that, after last year's events, I'd have imagined at least a plan being drawn up...just in case. IMHO, there doesn't appear to be one - certainly no coordination at national level.
Now I'm definitely no global warming fanatic, but even I can see that the world's weather has changed considerably in the last 20-25 years. Maybe the snowfalls have something to do with climate change and are a pattern of what to expect in future?

Cliste wrote: »

But really now, how often does Ireland get snow like this? This year is the first (in my 21 years wandering around) that I have seen snow that wasn't washed away in 2-3 days.

I'm not willing to donate so much tax that the authorities will be preemptively able to deal with freak acts of nature.

micro_dot

Maybe these icicles explain why we are in a wider mess. That kind of lads-be-reasonable-there-is-a-limit-to-personal-responisibility. Where I am from, a large town, the failure to clear ice and snow from footpaths and other thoroughfares led directly to a fall-off in trade, and the result will be the loss of even more jobs in a couple of weeks.
Nothing I can do about that, it's not my responsibility.
The economy, and jobs, just happen to us, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Excuse me Italia, I do not mean this personally, but the two of us come from countries where things are just allowed to happen. And those countries where people get up and do things like clear ice and snow have fared better economically since 2008.
Berlusconi, the man who said the country couldn't provide enough soldiers to protect all the pretty women? Brian Lenihan's da said that Ireland is a small country and there's not enough jobs for all of us.

thetonynator

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Try to be realistic please. Who would climb a ladder to clear snow off the roof of the building in the video for example?. Think about that. Would you climb up there if it was your building?.

More people would die trying to clear slippy roofs and on icy ladders than ever will from falling snow. Knock icicles off yes, but not sweep roofs.

Columbia wrote: »

That is precisely what they do in cold countries once a thaw comes about, yes. I went to Estonia at the beginning of last March and many streets were closed off by people shovelling snow from rooftops. And yes, they were as high up as the building in question. Why do you think Ireland is different?



Uh, what? So just leave the kids at home for 6 weeks then?

In cold countries, the thaw happens once a year, in spring, not after every snowfall.


Another point: in parts of continental europe, there are small rails keeping a few inches of snow on the roof, so that only small bits can fall off at a time. However irish roofs probably aren't built to take the weight of the snow for any length of time.

mikemac

It would be extremly dangerous to have people up on a roof at the height to sweep off snow and ice.
At that height you'll be killed if you slip off. Which is pretty likely on a sloped and icy roof.

mikemac

rsom wrote: »

Blown away by the swift reaction of the gardai sitting in the squad car:mad:

At the end of the clip he is releasing his seatbelt and about to get out. And his colleague is already on the scene

I don't know what some people expect from the Gardaí

Italia

I appreciate where you're coming from, but you missed the main gist of my point - and you assume I come from Italy .

I'm not advocating sitting back and doing nothing, but you wouldn't have been in a pickle if the council had stood up to its responsibilities and cleared the paths and roads - they are PAID to do that.
Why has no one stood up and held the public officials accountable for their actions? I'm not saying that they would have resolved everything, but at least shown the way and some proactiveness.

In my country, things are not just 'allowed to happen'. Council / state officals are paid by public funds to do a job, and if they fail to do it, then they are held accountable... Why should Ireland be any different?

As far as I know, in Ireland, businesses pay rates as well as taxes. Shortly all of us will be paying a tax on the house. Where does the money go, and what services are provided for those funds?

It's not just the icicles, this sort of immobility is ongoing. You just need to look at the floods of last year, the railway culvert (name?) that collapsed earlier this year, last year and this year's snow, waterworks that leak worse than a sieve etc etc.

Please understand I'm not trying to knock Ireland, I love it here, but it makes my blood boil when I see smug patronising PUBLIC servants shrugging their collective shoulders doing little or nothing...all without fear of repercussions. The worst part is the many many people who prefer to sit back and shake their heads saying 'ah sure, it could have been a lot worse', rather than getting up off their collective butts and rocking the boat.
The same could and should have been applied to the Brian and Brian commedy duo...

Unless people start waking up and forcing changes, they will continue to get the current crap. Change does not happen on its own.

micro_dot wrote: »

Maybe these icicles explain why we are in a wider mess. That kind of lads-be-reasonable-there-is-a-limit-to-personal-responisibility. Where I am from, a large town, the failure to clear ice and snow from footpaths and other thoroughfares led directly to a fall-off in trade, and the result will be the loss of even more jobs in a couple of weeks.
Nothing I can do about that, it's not my responsibility.
The economy, and jobs, just happen to us, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Excuse me Italia, I do not mean this personally, but the two of us come from countries where things are just allowed to happen. And those countries where people get up and do things like clear ice and snow have fared better economically since 2008.
Berlusconi, the man who said the country couldn't provide enough soldiers to protect all the pretty women? Brian Lenihan's da said that Ireland is a small country and there's not enough jobs for all of us.

mikemac

Relax Italia, you need to come around to our Irish ways.

It'll be grand at the end of the day

Italia wrote: »

and you assume I come from Italy .

I'm glad you posted that. As if there is one country to beat Ireland for corruptness and inefficiency it's Italy!
Our politicans are saints compared to them

John mac

Where does the money go, and what services are provided for those funds?

Pays the pensions of thoes guys (and gals) who are not running in the next election.

back on topic.. i had a couple of avalanches today during the thaw .. glad i wasnt under them .

Butch Cassidy

As someone else said, get real. If we were to have these kinda winters every year with snow/ice then yeah people should be mandated to clear it but this is only our second such winter in recent years.

I have seen great big icicles hanging from house gutters... you'd wanna be extremely unlucky to be walking past when one hit you on the head but I suppose not impossible or implausible.

I think many people have done a great job this year getting out and clearing drives and paths and what have you. Businessess too. Yeah not everywhere has been totally cleared but I think everyone is getting better.

Imo if this is long term and is reocurring govt. should buy in snow shovels and salt/grit supplies to distribute to councils to distribute to local communities. It's been a pain trying to ring around everywhere to source snow shovels and salt.

mikemac

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Imo if this is long term and is reocurring govt. should buy in snow shovels and salt/grit supplies to distribute to councils to distribute to local communities.

Farmers have issues getting the milk lorries to their property.
If the councils give the salt then a lot of farmers will do the local roads so no need for council staff.
The issues for liability were cleared up by the Attorney General earlier this year.

paddyp

I was in boston a few years ago for one of the worst winters they'd ever had, a lot of taller buildings were cordoned off for falling icicles.

My brother was hit by an icicle from just a two storey building we estimated it was about 2-3kg weight - his shoulder was severely bruised and swollen if had hit his head it would have been at least a concussion. Taught us to walk on the outside of the sidewalk!

Grudaire

Italia wrote: »

I have no idea on the long term weather conditions in Ireland. I've only been here 8 years and this is the 2nd year running where there have been problems. Old timers, where I work, tell me that heavy snow was fairly normal in the old days. I really have no way to prove or disprove these claims.
Having said that, after last year's events, I'd have imagined at least a plan being drawn up...just in case. IMHO, there doesn't appear to be one - certainly no coordination at national level.

Technically it's the same year, second winter running :P And don't mind any old-timers, if you're to believe them, things were way worse in the old days - they walked to school in their bare feet they'll have you know!

I'm all for bashing the government (and you if you voted Fianna Fáil) but I honestly don't think this is a huge issue of fault. There was a clearly disproportionate ammount of snow (sure it happened earlier this year but I challenge you to predict a freeze this winter at any stage over the past 8 years living here. [No marks for predicting cold rain])
This government have shown incompetence on several levels, anyway, some food for thought:

http://met.ie/climate/dublinairport.asp (this gives average days with snow on the ground in December of .6 days over the past 30 years - and a yearly average of 4.5 days of snow on the ground. There's a lot of hospitals that I believe still deserve the funding more.)

mikemac

Cliste wrote: »

I'm all for bashing the government (and you if you voted Fianna Fáil) but I honestly don't think this is a huge issue of fault.

My parents tell me there was equal amount of complaining about Garett Fitzgerald in 1981, I'll take their word for it.

Earlier this year Minister Dempsey attended his daughters wedding abroad and got criticism from all quarters for not returning immediately.
I'm reading more posts that if the NRA ordered tens of thousands of extra tonnes of salt and grit people would complain.

People complained with the councils dealt with it and then complained when the NRA centralized the ordering of salt.
In the Mayo forum there were complaints that secondary roads weren't done and then in motors forum there was complaining that the motorways were not prioritized.

The minister, NRA and councils deserve some criticism but they'll never keep everybody happy. And some deserve some praise too

Butch Cassidy

feelingstressed wrote: »

My parents tell me there was equal amount of complaining about Garett Fitzgerald in 1981, I'll take their word for it.

Yeah that was a big thing back then. As far as I know there was literally nothing that could be done as they had no equipment at all. A committee was set up to write a report (of course, sure don't we love reports!) and out of that they bought some equipment for the future just in case.

Earlier this year Minister Dempsey attended his daughters wedding abroad and got criticism from all quarters for not returning immediately.
I'm reading more posts that if the NRA ordered tens of thousands of extra tonnes of salt and grit people would complain.

People complained with the councils dealt with it and then complained when the NRA centralized the ordering of salt.
In the Mayo forum there were complaints that secondary roads weren't done and then in motors forum there was complaining that the motorways were not prioritized.

The minister, NRA and councils deserve some criticism but they'll never keep everybody happy. And some deserve some praise too

Every government regardless of what party they are and all of the councils are ultimately in a lose-lose situation. If they were to buy dozens of ploughs, loads of salt and grit in anticipation for weather like this and it doesn't come then there'll be tabloid stories wall to wall about how they "wasted" precious taxpayer money on equipment that wasn't needed.

As I said, I think the councils did a great job with what they had. I'd have preferred to see the army and FCA out in more places perhaps clearing schools&hospitals but there was a better response this year than last I thought.

4Sheets

Yeah at first i trhought retailers shouldnt be open in such weather if they couldnt ensure safety an a reasonable look at the conditions but hey even I was I was glad they where open late xmas eve to facillate my leaving it to the last minute shopping .stuff happens..how often is failing snow gonna kill anyone ?