Can we genuinely look after ourselves?

zig

Im not sure if this is a regular debate, I know the topic is mentioned from time to time but I don't think there is any devoted thread.

Do you think 1916 was a failure in hindsight, im not talking about a failure because the Brits beat the volunteers out of the GPO, but because when the Irish finally did win that republic(well 2/3s of it) we just weren't able to handle it.
Think about it, we let our catholic institutions fail our children, we constantly accepted emigration as a handy means of avoiding reality and tackling our real problems. Its even happening again now, FF come along and parade about our unemployment figures stabilizing when in truth its due to emigration.
We clearly cant seem to manage our own finances, our economy finally started showing genuine progress in the 90s but that was with the help of copious amounts of handouts from the EU. We then even managed to blow that boom with a scandalous property boom.
We have often shown weakness in the face of pressure, i.e. the bailout, our neutrality(shannon etc), our weakness in dealing with EU in general( lisbon for example, even though I was a Yes voter, I thought the second referendum was a bit ridiculous), our failed political system where we have no alternatives whatsoever that can achieve power by itself.
Have we become so dependent over the 100s of years that we're just not able to handle it by ourselves, or is the problem embedded deep into our personalities. Do you notice a common feature amongst the PIIGS, I know this may come across as a sweeping generalisation but all of these countries are of the more , let's say, chilled out personalities. We are probably less honest, and don't follow the system as much, and don't do things as technically correct as the European counterparts.

I hope the impression isnt picked up from this post, Im proud to be Irish, im proud of what was done 100 years to kick out the Brits, Im much happier being in the category of personalities amongst the PIIGS than I am amongst the Germans, Dutch or French. I think we are great people, and having lived abroad for a small while , im much happier here to be surrounded by like minded people with the same sense of humour, but it just feels sometimes that we cannot manage things ourselves.

Now , the argument against all this, is that we are still only young, a 100 year old country has alot to learn, we have to experience everything all other countries have experienced in the past, and maybe in another 50 or 100 years we'll become the great country we long for.

But lets be honest here, how do you think our economy would be doing had we remained under control of Britain all this time, better infrastructure? probably. Better education not closely tied in with the Church? probably. Better financial situation right now? Probably.
I dont know , maybe im wrong , just thought it would be an interesting debate and would like to hear other opinions.

mike65

zig wrote: »

I hope the impression isnt picked up from this post, Im proud to be Irish, im proud of what was done 100 years to kick out the Brits, Im much happier being in the category of personalities amongst the PIIGS than I am amongst the Germans, Dutch or French. I think we are great people, and having lived abroad for a small while , im much happier here to be surrounded by like minded people with the same sense of humour, but it just feels sometimes that we cannot manage things ourselves.

Do you not see any linkage?

zig

mike65 wrote: »

Do you not see any linkage?

in general , thats what my post was getting at, i.e. is it a sacrfice we must make to have our personalities the way they are?

here:

Do you notice a common feature amongst the PIIGS, I know this may come across as a sweeping generalisation but all of these countries are of the more , let's say, chilled out personalities. We are probably less honest, and don't follow the system as much, and don't do things as technically correct as the European counterparts.

I hope the impression isnt picked up from this post, Im proud to be Irish...

Im much happier being in the category of personalities amongst the PIIGS than I am amongst the Germans, Dutch or French. I think we are great people, and having lived abroad for a small while , im much happier here to be surrounded by like minded people with the same sense of humour, but it just feels sometimes that we cannot manage things ourselves.

Wolfe Tone

Oh jesus...... If anyone thinks the Ireland we got was what the men of 116 were fighting for you are kidding yourself, we half arsed it tbh.

No, we wouldnt be better off under the Brits. Oh wait, they did a great job for 700 or so years didnt they? Always there when we needed a hand!

mike65

Ah I see, I took you up wrong. I thought you felt being a mediterranean layabout about was something to be proud of. The only link that the Irish have culturally speaking is Catholicism but then the Austrians are mainly RC and they tend to run an efficient state. Quite why this state has lurched from one crisis to another with just the odd interlude is worth investigating, after 90 years one would have hoped things would have settled down and steady linear progress made.

Anonymous1987

What makes you think the UK is any better at managing their affairs? they aren't too far removed from their own experience with the IMF in 1976. To me the idea that we can't manage our own country is a reflection of post colonial insecurity and nothing more than that.

We are a small open economy and as such we will always be subject to greater economic volatility than larger, more domestically driven economies.

Fo Real

A lot of people still cling onto the childish notion that because we are geographically an independent island that we should therefore be a politically independent nation.

As it stands, one sixth of the island is ruled by the UK, while the remainder is ruled by the Catholic church and a selection of gombeens. The Republic of Ireland is only staying afloat thanks to life support from the EU and IMF. Our economic sovereignty has already been eroded. We don't really govern ourselves as Europe decides our laws for us, despite the charade of referenda (as seen with the Lisbon treaties). We rely too heavily on foreign multinationals for employment and our representatives regularly journey abroad to beg other countries to invest in Ireland.

I look across the water at London and look at the huge influence it has on the world - culturally and politically. Indeed, not too long ago it ruled most of the world. Yet it too is only a small island, but one that punches well above its weight.

In short, of course we'd be better off if we remained part of the UK. This short 90 year experiment with independence has been nothing but a disater.

Sand

We have a terrible system of government, which lacks any check or balance against the centralisation of power by the cabinet and the heads of the civil service. Any checks on the power of the government is attacked a threat to democracy, which is odd given the whip system ensures TDs are responsible to their parties direction - not their own views and thoughts.

Our electoral system again prioritises intensely local polics and our politicians and parties (the successful ones at any rate) have responded to the incentives offered by concentrating on intensely local issues at the expense of national ones.

Our government is run in secret, where the opposition are viewed as the enemy, and policies are formed and crafted without any oversight or criticism. Any interjection from the wider public is viewed as, and I quote, "meddling".

Theres nothing particularly ungovernable, feckless or reckless about the Irish character. Its our system which amplifies the worst populist urges of any democratic system, without any checks. Our entire system of government is based on the principle that whoever has the most seats in the Dail can do whatever they like, without any constraints whatsoever or need to justify or explain themselves. Better governed countries have the same populist urges, but they restrict and channel them by better systems of governance. The smaller the country, the more risk of personal influences, and thus the stronger the checks on any one politicians power and the more transparent government must be to ensure it is honest.

The idea that electing Gilmore or Kenny to run the country is going to lead to better results is flawed - and given the lack of confidence people have in Labour and FG, people sense it. All it will do is change the eejits in power who will run the country in response to populist, local issues, without proper oversight or discussion and in total distrust of the idea of examining and testing policies before implementing them.

We need a change of not just the government, but also the system under which we are governed.

Liam Byrne

Firstly, since when is 26/32 "two-thirds" ?

Secondly, what happened in 1916 is largely irrelevant; they didn't know that their successors would be corrupt.

What may have happened is that we've finally realised that SOME Irish people are completely untrustworthy and should be let nowhere near responsibility, and to be fair, that's something that has dawned on use about lots of other professions, from bankers & developers to priests.

What we, as a society, need to learn is how to prevent the scum reaching the top.

If we manage that, then we'll have learned a valuable lesson.

Dr. Baltar

In short, the men of 1916 would see the rising today as a bit of both.
They succeeded in turning the majority of the country into republicans, they got mass support, created a de-facto Republic, and this then led to the war of independence.

After that **** goes sour I think. Men like Connolly would spin in the grave at the thought of us literally handing power over to the Church and not giving more power to the working class.

Others would simply be angered at the loss of the North.


Personally, I care little for the North, I believe more democracy than I do in Nationalism. But yes, I do feel a certain shame in our handing of power to the church, and yes I do feel shame bending over and taking it from the EU.
It doesn't feel right.

hinault

Several thoughts spring to mind. This country did not have charge of it's own affairs for 700 of the last 800 years.
Within 90 years, the three major Irish institutions - body politik, the church and the banks - have all imploded due to corruption/cheating/thievery/lies.

I remember when the tax evasion issue became wider public knowledge in the 1980/90's.
One commentator put forward the idea that the reason why tax evasion was so prevalent here was because "the Irish historically resented paying tax in to the British Exchequer" and that this mindset underpins the current evasion.

This mindset could well be at the root of this country's corruption.
The old "are shure isn't he great for getting away with it" can still be heard from certain quarters.
"We're gonna pull one over the IMF........"
The problem is that this "getting away with it" attitude ultimately ends up costing us, the citizens, more in the long run.

Are we capable of managing our own affairs? Part of me would like to think that we have matured enough to be capable of looking after ourselves.
But right now in 2010 I have serious doubts that the Irish psyche is capable of accepting that our fate is in our own hands.

johnnyskeleton

Typically after independence countries go through a few stages of maturing. Civil wars follow wars of independence almost invariably, as the independence front is usually made up of several diverse voices unified by the common enemy but divided among themselves.

Then periods of stagnation usually follow.

It is common for governments to be unstable until a dictatorship comes along. This leaves a legacy of cronyism that is ingrained in the State and is very hard to shift.

Eventually a modern stable state is brought in, but to do so they need accountable people in positions of power. This will only happen in small steps, but when we start to see incompetent officials in the DoF and other places losing their jobs straight away, that's hopefully when we will start to see changes.

OhNoYouDidn't

While I am game ball for a whinge, this failed state nonsense if too much. Somalia is a failed political system.

We still have all the trappings of living in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, even if a lot of them run at about 80% of what they could.

By and large, the country works. Of course we can improve things, but to say as a nation we should give up and hand back to the Brits is laughable.

Are we really much worse run than any other small industrialised nation?

feicim

zig wrote: »

...
I hope the impression isnt picked up from this post, Im proud to be Irish, im proud of what was done 100 years to kick out the Brits, Im much happier being in the category of personalities amongst the PIIGS than I am amongst the Germans, Dutch or French. I think we are great people, and having lived abroad for a small while , im much happier here to be surrounded by like minded people with the same sense of humour, but it just feels sometimes that we cannot manage things ourselves.

.

It could be a coincidence (personally I don't think it is) but 3 of the 5 piigs countries (greece. ireland and portugal) languish at the bottom of the european I.Q. table. source
Whereas the Dutch and Germans are up at the top of this league table (along with Italy which kind of ruins the trend).


It pains me to say it, its blatantly obvious from looking at our history, that Ireland has never been run right since the formation of the state.

Maybe the greece and portuguese and Irish are great easy going people, but as they say ignorance is bliss. Maybe there is a bit of thickness that goes hand in hand with this, that renders the irish electorate as a whole, incompetent in important matters such as voting in a government capable of doing a good job and getting them to run the country properly.

In answer to the OP's question, no I don't think we are capable of looking after ourselves. Our history and current events back this up.

zig

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

While I am game ball for a whinge, this failed state nonsense if too much. Somalia is a failed political system.

We still have all the trappings of living in one of the wealthiest countries in the world, even if a lot of them run at about 80% of what they could.

By and large, the country works. Of course we can improve things, but to say as a nation we should give up and hand back to the Brits is laughable.

Are we really much worse run than any other small industrialised nation?

I see what you're saying but firstly, I by no means meant we were a failed state, and didnt imply handing back to the Brits at all at all. But yes , we're probably not much worse than other states, but sometimes I wonder is that because of our British history combined with 'piggybacking' off the EU for quite some time now, hence, not being able to look after ourselves.

Wolfe Tone

feicim wrote: »

It could be a coincidence (personally I don't think it is) but 3 of the 5 piigs countries (greece. ireland and portugal) languish at the bottom of the european I.Q. table. source
Whereas the Dutch and Germans are up at the top of this league table (along with Italy which kind of ruins the trend).


It pains me to say it, its blatantly obvious from looking at our history, that Ireland has never been run right since the formation of the state.

Maybe the greece and portuguese and Irish are great easy going people, but as they say ignorance is bliss. Maybe there is a bit of thickness that goes hand in hand with this, that renders the irish electorate as a whole, incompetent in important matters such as voting in a government capable of doing a good job and getting them to run the country properly.

In answer to the OP's question, no I don't think we are capable of looking after ourselves. Our history and current events back this up.

TLDR The Irish are retards



ffs

zig

zig wrote: »

I see what you're saying but firstly, I by no means meant we were a failed state, and didnt imply handing back to the Brits at all at all. But yes , we're probably not much worse than other states, but sometimes I wonder is that because of our British history combined with 'piggybacking' off the EU for quite some time now, hence, not being able to look after ourselves.

I might also add that Im well aware I could be wrong with the above, and am still undecided myself on the answer to my question.

Maybe if we had been independent for the last 1000 years or whatever we may have been a completely different extremely prosperous country.

sollar

No we can't look after ourselves yet imo, we still treat our country as if we are under the rule of a foreign occupier. People still look at politicians and members of the public defrauding and cheating the state as if they are geting one over on a foreign administrator.

eoinoleary

maby we have made a balls of plenty of stuff but as for punching above our weight per capita we are far above pretty much everybody....they celebrate paddys day all over the world for christs sake...how many "america day" or god forbid "Britan day" parades do you see going down the main streets of cities the world over annually...maby we would have better infrastructer if we remained within the uk but i for 1 would rather have pothole filled roads and be goverened by a bunch of gombeens than be ruled by some galavanised ****e in london or anywer else for that matter....they may be gombeens and corrupted ****s but there ours and we elected them and have the freedom to unelect them...so thanks but ill have my ****ty roads and buildings anyday...infrastructure is no reward for the lack of soverinty and self determanation...

sollar

The big problem is that we do elect gombeens and shysters. We tolerate an awful lot of skullduggery in this country.

feicim

eoinoleary wrote: »

maby we have made a balls of plenty of stuff but as for punching above our weight per capita we are far above pretty much everybody....they celebrate paddys day all over the world for christs sake...how many "america day" or god forbid "Britan day" parades do you see going down the main streets of cities the world over annually...maby we would have better infrastructer if we remained within the uk...

The fact that enough irish people populate these far away countries in big enough numbers to have parades etc is a testament to how badly the country has been run forcing many millions to leave the country.

eoinoleary wrote: »

i for 1 would rather have pothole filled roads and be goverened by a bunch of gombeens than be ruled by some galavanised ****e in london or anywer else for that matter....they may be gombeens and corrupted ****s but there ours and we elected them and have the freedom to unelect them...so thanks but ill have my ****ty roads and buildings anyday...infrastructure is no reward for the lack of soverinty and self determanation...

+1 on this, but the facts are the irish only elect gombeens into government.

Its all good and well not being ruled by a foreign state but what of the millions who had to leave their home country because it let them down? Them and their descendants are being ruled by "foreign states". They had to flee to a foreign state because their own wasn't able to look after them.

feicim

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

TLDR The Irish are retards



ffs

You summed that up nicely cheers.

Not all of them, but enough of them are to cause problems for everybody.

If voting for a party because of family allegiences formed during the civil war isn't retarded I dont know what is.

PomBear

feicim wrote: »

You summed that up nicely cheers.

Not all of them, but enough of them are to cause problems for everybody.

If voting for a party because of family allegiences formed during the civil war isn't retarded I dont know what is.

It's not as if the parties didn't take full advantage of this,

LostinBlanch

On a slightly different note, I am currently reading a book called the Survivors Club by Ben Sherwood. It examines what behaviour helps some people survive disasters while the majority don't. Reading excerpts from Dr John Leach, who specialises in the area of survival psychology, about his experiences of the Kings Cross Underground fire in 1987 that killed 31 people. Many of those who died

marched right in to the disaster, almost oblivious to the crush of people - some actually in flames - who were trying to escape. One woman even approached a manager and asked matter of factly: "Does this mean my train has been cancelled?" Second, many of the underground authorities were simply overwhelmed. One official was simply frozen in fear, unable to do a thing with tears streaming down his face.

Dr Leach termed this behaviour of the passengers who followed their normal routines "The incredulity response." They simply didn't believe what they were seeing, there was no way there could be a fire in London's biggest underground station. So they went around thinking "this isn't really happening" and acting as though nothing out of the ordinary was happening. Something also referred to as normalcy bias. They ignore what is happening and don't do anything about it, and according to Dr Leach:

Denial and inactivity prepare people well for the roles of victim and corpse.

It's not a million miles away to draw parallels with the current situation here, add that to Sands analysis of the political setup and this to me says why we're here.

conorhal

Fo Real wrote: »

A lot of people still cling onto the childish notion that because we are geographically an independent island that we should therefore be a politically independent nation.

As it stands, one sixth of the island is ruled by the UK, while the remainder is ruled by the Catholic church and a selection of gombeens. The Republic of Ireland is only staying afloat thanks to life support from the EU and IMF. Our economic sovereignty has already been eroded. We don't really govern ourselves as Europe decides our laws for us, despite the charade of referenda (as seen with the Lisbon treaties). We rely too heavily on foreign multinationals for employment and our representatives regularly journey abroad to beg other countries to invest in Ireland.

I look across the water at London and look at the huge influence it has on the world - culturally and politically. Indeed, not too long ago it ruled most of the world. Yet it too is only a small island, but one that punches well above its weight.

In short, of course we'd be better off if we remained part of the UK. This short 90 year experiment with independence has been nothing but a disater.

Every time an acorn falls out of a tree and hits you on the bonce, do you run around shrieking about how the sky is falling?

This attitude really sickens me, yes we're a state in a state right now and yes we have been monumentally failed by an incompetent and self serving political class, but instead of running around like a load of Chicken Lickin's lets just step back a moment and take a breath.

Firstly, there was nothing particularly appealing about British rule unless you were part of the Anglo Irish ascendency or the professional classes that served them.
If you were my like great grandparents for example, life was hard at the turn of the century. Checking the newly published 1911 census I can see that my illiterate great grandmother was living in a tenement house with seven other families. On the other side of my family tree my great grandparents fared a bit better, farming a small share hold down in Cork, but the census lists tenants that lived in stone huts on the farm that my grandfather remembers as poverty stricken farm hands who wore sack cloth and never owned a pair of shoes. That was life under British rule and I think it's fair to say that things have improved substantially since then. Lets not forget that the greatest mass migration of Irish emigrants and the greatest decline of our population through war and famine took place under the stewardship of Brittan.
Lets not forget that in the 70's Britain was the one that had to go cap in hand to the IMF, they have been where we are now, several times in fact so take off those rose tinted glasses of empire.
When I look across the water at that once great nation in decline I really don't see what they could possibly have to offer that we cannot do for ourselves.
Your argument about small nations is pretty facetious too. There are may successful small western nations like Denmark, Norway or Finland for example that don't sit around wittering on about selling off their independence to the highest bidder.

If you actually use a little perspective you might manage to notice that we're not Haiti or Afghanistan so we must have done at least a few things right because, from the kind of ferocious poverty that I gave an example of above, we have over the last 90 years become a prosperous first world nation with many blessings to count. Things may be bleak now, but we can rebuild this nation and we do have a future if only we have the courage to seize it, and the best place to start is by ignoring the Chicken Lickins like you.

Kensington

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What may have happened is that we've finally realised that SOME Irish people are completely untrustworthy and should be let nowhere near responsibility, and to be fair, that's something that has dawned on use about lots of other professions, from bankers & developers to priests.

What we, as a society, need to learn is how to prevent the scum reaching the top.

If we manage that, then we'll have learned a valuable lesson.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can learn that lesson.
There was a thread in After Hours a few weeks ago about a student lying his way into Harvard. It summed up the Irish way of thinking pretty well - quite a few of the responses were along the lines of: g'wan ya boyo ya, fair play to him, showing it to the administration! If that's what a large fraction of this country is thinking, then is it any wonder we are governed by a bunch of corrupt, lying scum who handsomely reward other corrupt, lying scum with bailouts and vast amounts of protection?

eoinoleary wrote:

maby we have made a balls of plenty of stuff but as for punching above our weight per capita we are far above pretty much everybody....they celebrate paddys day all over the world for christs sake...how many "america day" or god forbid "Britan day" parades do you see going down the main streets of cities the world over annually...maby we would have better infrastructer if we remained within the uk but i for 1 would rather have pothole filled roads and be goverened by a bunch of gombeens than be ruled by some galavanised ****e in london or anywer else for that matter....they may be gombeens and corrupted ****s but there ours and we elected them and have the freedom to unelect them...so thanks but ill have my ****ty roads and buildings anyday...infrastructure is no reward for the lack of soverinty and self determanation...

I think feicim hit the nail on the head - Paddy's day is a sign of how many Irish people have left this country seeking a better life. It's not because the rest of the world thought long, long ago that the Irish are great craic altogether, sure we'll join in on their annual celebration! It's the vast amounts of Irish all over the world who have emigrated - and continue to emigrate - that carried on celebrating Patrick's Day in their new homes.

The fact Patrick's Day is so big is an indicator to me that something is deeply, deeply wrong with this country that we have enough Irish emigrants to make our annual celebration have a worldwide influence to the extent that it does.

As for "they may be corrupt but at least they're ours", my mind boggles. We'll never get any better with an attitude like that. Not that it's exactly accurate anymore - the EU and IMF are pulling the strings now.

zig

Interesting side note , NI seems to be going through a pretty major water crisis, I know the republic is as well, but it seems as if its nothing like the North,(just basing this on news coverage).
I know its only another tiny observation in this whole debate but still, its something to pat ourselves on the back for.

Amhran Nua

feicim wrote: »

It could be a coincidence (personally I don't think it is) but 3 of the 5 piigs countries (greece. ireland and portugal) languish at the bottom of the european I.Q. table. source
Whereas the Dutch and Germans are up at the top of this league table (along with Italy which kind of ruins the trend).

For pity's sake, that's run by Lynn of Uni Ulster, among whose stances are anti-immigrant rhetoric because Africans have lower IQs apparently, also author of the same farcical study indicating women have naturally lower IQs, eugenicist and racist, completely ignoring that IQ tests need to be standardised across populations and are not applicable across different societies, among many many other flaws in methodology and conclusion.

Zig, wtf?

zig

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Zig, wtf?

presume this is directed at my original post, spurring a debate doesnt mean I necessarily agree with it, its just it wasnt the first time Id heard these comments ,i.e. "hand the keys back" etc,so I thought a thread would about it would be interesting, just to see peoples point of view.

feicim

Amhran Nua wrote: »

For pity's sake, that's run by Lynn of Uni Ulster, among whose stances are anti-immigrant rhetoric because Africans have lower IQs apparently, also author of the same farcical study indicating women have naturally lower IQs, eugenicist and racist, completely ignoring that IQ tests need to be standardised across populations and are not applicable across different societies, among many many other flaws in methodology and conclusion.

Zig, wtf?

His methods may have flaws depending on the context of what you are trying to prove.

I'm not talking about immigrants or africans or women or any of these things you mention. That was not my point (at all, not sure why you brought it up in this context).

But the correlation of IQ and wealth on european countries pretty well matches the economic and political realities of real life today in Europe. (greece, ireland, portugal at the bottom, Germany on top). That is the point that I was making.

Standardising across populations and societies might make the results more relative but economic and political realities don't understand or work to suit the principles of standardised relative realities.

Amhran Nua

feicim wrote: »

That was not my point (at all, not sure why you brought it up in this context).

The study you cite is from a moronic "scientific racist" in the 19th century sense, bluntly. Any and every piece of tripe that comes out of Lynn should be discarded at this point, or at the very least treated with extreme scepticism from the outset, in much the same way as you would treat a KKK/neo nazi joint funded study.

feicim wrote: »

But the correlation of IQ and wealth on european countries pretty well matches the economic and political realities of real life today in Europe. (greece, ireland, portugal at the bottom, Germany on top). That is the point that I was making.

IQ tests Do Not Work Like That. When they work at all.

later12

Fo Real wrote: »

one sixth of the island is ruled by the UK, while the remainder is ruled by the Catholic church and a selection of gombeens.

Gombeens, fine, but The Catholic Church? Seriously, you would say that the Catholic Church shares governance with politicians? What decade are you living in?

_Kaiser_

As I said over in the "Where's Gormley" thread, the biggest problem we have is that we are indeed too young as a nation and too parochial and greedy as individuals to be let at the controls.

People here have said it's our political system, but the fact is that it's embedded at every level of society - be it the civil/public sector, the Gardai, eircom, whatever - everything is run to this "ah sure it'll be grand" mentallity and the response you get will always depend on who you get on the day.

We (as a people) are too busy trying to screw each other over or get one over on "the man" whilst showing off our (credit-fuelled) wares to the neighbours that the concept of acting in "the greater good" never comes into it. The political system, and personalities it throws up, is merely a product of this, not the cause.

Of course those same people who harp on about "the Brits" and "800 years", are probably the same ones who follow English football teams, shop in British high street chain stores, and watch all the English soaps.

The fact is that culturally we have a lot more in common with our UK neighbours than our European mainland counterparts, but ultimately it's an academic debate as, in the age of globalisation and the common EU market, the stakes are much higher and the decisions we've made have far wider implications than they would have even 20 years ago - hence why the important decisions have been taken away from us by our EU and IMF paymasters under the guise of "saving" us with a bailout.

Thanks to Irish greed and shortsightedness, and the decisions made by a handful of men (and a few token women) whose mandate to govern surely must have been shredded beyond any doubt when they signed off on the bank guarantee, we no longer have control over our country's destiny.
That'll be decided by unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels and it'll be the next generation(s) of Irish people that will have to clear up the mess that we've made.

Ultimately then, Irish independence now isn't worth the paper it was written on and THAT is surely the best evidence that we weren't/aren't ready for it.

Anonymous1987

feicim wrote: »

His methods may have flaws depending on the context of what you are trying to prove.

I'm not talking about immigrants or africans or women or any of these things you mention. That was not my point (at all, not sure why you brought it up in this context).

But the correlation of IQ and wealth on european countries pretty well matches the economic and political realities of real life today in Europe. (greece, ireland, portugal at the bottom, Germany on top). That is the point that I was making.

Standardising across populations and societies might make the results more relative but economic and political realities don't understand or work to suit the principles of standardised relative realities.

Correlation does not imply causation. Even if causation was at work here which direction would causation work? Perhaps economic performance drives IQ levels through better educational facilities and a higher standard of living?

Sand

As I said over in the "Where's Gormley" thread, the biggest problem we have is that we are indeed too young as a nation and too parochial and greedy as individuals to be let at the controls.

Its 2010. [EDIT] Doh!..2011[/EDIT] Ireland is no longer able to use the "young" nation excuse. There are younger nations out there who havent got themselves into this sort of mess. West and East Germany reunified only in 1990 for example, and it wasnt all smiles and sunshine.

As for the parochialism and greed, they are human traits, not uniquely Irish traits.

How do other nations achieve better outcomes when faced with the same challenges?

People here have said it's our political system, but the fact is that it's embedded at every level of society - be it the civil/public sector, the Gardai, eircom, whatever - everything is run to this "ah sure it'll be grand" mentallity and the response you get will always depend on who you get on the day.

Roy Keane. Michael O'Leary. Shane Ross. There are many Irish people, famous and anonymously doing their jobs every day who would disprove the generalisations made about the "ah sure it'll be grand" Irish mentality.

Yes, I am sure examples exist and most of them vote Fianna Fail, but thats human nature which exists in all countries and political systems. The key difference is that well governed nations have strong systems of government which acknowledge the threat of corruption and populism overwhelming good policymaking considerations and work to prevent that.

What we have is weak system of government, where the winner takes all. Power is concentrated in the hands of a few dozen cabinet members and civil servants and they can simply do whatever they like without any meaningful oversight or criticism. Should we be surprised that such a system leads to disastrously bad governance?