Home extension - building guarantee

20goto10

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, I cannot find the building and construction forum.

I was wondering what the situation is with guarantees on home extensions. I'm guessing there must be laws that cover this. Basically my builder has decided to set his own terms and conditions with a 5 month guarantee. He says he'll fix any defects within that period but afterwards it's tough luck as far as he is concerned.

My feeling is there must be some sort of law to cover this and I can just ignore his terms as they are completely irrelevant. Am I right?

Amtmann

Moved from infrastructure.

brendankelly

A very relevant topic and one we are going to learn more about because I believe there are going to be court cases over bad work done in the <snip>.

With lime plastering I am liable for it until it is signed off on. The contract usually includes one coat of either whitewash or an appropriate paint. It is the builders job to ensure that there are no cracks , no cement was used etc. I also am a <snip> installer and the same applies.

From what I can gather it is the builder that is responsible. He in turn can sue the suppliers who will blame the installers if they are not recommended installers. If the recommended installers are used and if the directions are not followed to the letter the installer is at fault.

Poor Uncle Tom

20goto10 wrote: »

I was wondering what the situation is with guarantees on home extensions. I'm guessing there must be laws that cover this. Basically my builder has decided to set his own terms and conditions with a 5 month guarantee. He says he'll fix any defects within that period but afterwards it's tough luck as far as he is concerned.

My feeling is there must be some sort of law to cover this and I can just ignore his terms as they are completely irrelevant. Am I right?

Speak to your solicitor before any works are carried out and get them to prepare a building agreement (contract) which should outline yours and the contractors rights and responsibilities. It is possible the builder is talking about a 'defects liability period' your solicitor should clear this up for you.

Poor Uncle Tom

brendankelly wrote: »

A very relevant topic and one we are going to learn more about because I believe there are going to be court cases over bad work done in the <snip>.

Please don't refer to specific jobs in response to a general queary, it will just drag the thread off-topic.

brendankelly wrote: »

With lime plastering I am liable for it until it is signed off on.

I know in your case we are talking about one specific trade, but, what makes you think your responsibility for your job ends there?

brendankelly

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Please don't refer to specific jobs in response to a general queary, it will just drag the thread off-topic.

SORRY

I know in your case we are talking about one specific trade, but, what makes you think your responsibility for your job ends there?

I see your point.

Once we follow the directions for lime plastering or <snip> if there are no cracked after 6 months there will be no cracks. The paint then protects the plaster and the lime plaster will last provided it is whitewashed or painted. HOWEVER. If a cowboy uses cement or something else. in the mix faults will appear after about 2 years and then the plasterer is naturally liable. We never add cement or waterproof or anti freeze so therefore our responsibility ends when painted.

Poor Uncle Tom

Please read the forum charter before posting again, you have posted within a quoted text which the charter asks not to and you have named a product twice which the charter asks not to.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Please don't refer to specific jobs in response to a general queary, it will just drag the thread off-topic.

SORRY

I know in your case we are talking about one specific trade, but, what makes you think your responsibility for your job ends there?

brendankelly wrote: »

Once we follow the directions for lime plastering or <snip> if there are no cracked after 6 months there will be no cracks.

Regardless of following directions nobody can guarantee that cracking will not appear after 6 months. It should not appear, but no-one can guarantee that.

brendankelly wrote: »

HOWEVER. If a cowboy uses cement or something else. in the mix faults will appear after about 2 years and then the plasterer is naturally liable.

The same can be said of any trade. The moral of the story - whoever carries out works are responsible for those works.

brendankelly wrote: »

We never add cement or waterproof or anti freeze so therefore our responsibility ends when painted.

Saying that you don't add X, Y or Z to your job does not end your responsibility for works you carried out. Your responsibility for your plastering work does not end when the plastering is painted nor does it end when the job is signed off.
I say, your responsibility for your plastering works last until such time as good building practices have determined the average life span of those works should be, or 20 years, whichever comes sooner.

brendankelly

Are you for real???. The plasterer has the exact same "responsibility"" as every other grunt on the site from the digger driver that turned the first scraw to the person that gave the last sweep out.

Every build has a BOSS. whether he is called a builder, site manager Self build person etc. He is either getting paid to manage the site or trying to save money by doing it himself. The worst of all is what is called a mushroom Builder. (A builder that grew from nowhere overnight). The PC term now for these are Developers. They are conmen that did not know enough about building to know they knew nothing. A good project Manager will build a good house and every job will be done properly and there will be no problems. If you have a bad builder that will hire someone because he is cheap you will have foundations without DPM, Plaster directly onto Panelvent, Timber frame Jack walls etc etc.The grunts get paid from the neck down and drive 99 transits while the conmen drive 09 V Ws.

Poor Uncle Tom

brendankelly wrote: »

Are you for real???. The plasterer has the exact same "responsibility"" as every other grunt on the site from the digger driver that turned the first scraw to the person that gave the last sweep out.

Every build has a BOSS. whether he is called a builder, site manager Self build person etc. He is either getting paid to manage the site or trying to save money by doing it himself. The worst of all is what is called a mushroom Builder. (A builder that grew from nowhere overnight). The PC term now for these are Developers. They are conmen that did not know enough about building to know they knew nothing. A good project Manager will build a good house and every job will be done properly and there will be no problems. If you have a bad builder that will hire someone because he is cheap you will have foundations without DPM, Plaster directly onto Panelvent, Timber frame Jack walls etc etc.The grunts get paid from the neck down and drive 99 transits while the conmen drive 09 V Ws.

Your post makes no sense whatsoever in light of your statements

I am liable for it until it is signed off on.

...so therefore our responsibility ends when painted.

I gave my opinion on your responsibility regarding the plastering.
Nowhere along the line are we talking about mushroom builders, developers, Bosses or Project Managers, grunts or pay.

brendankelly

It make sense to people that understand Lime Plastering.

Lime plaster shrinks as it dries. It could dry in one day, Or it could take a week or even a month to dry out depending on conditions. Once it is dried out it will not crack and can be painted/whitewashed..

Cracks that appear after 6 months in lime plaster are a result of cement etc been added to the mix or structural damage. The plasterer is not responsible for structural cracks. The site manager is responsible for structural cracks. The plasterer is responsible for shrinkage cracks only. If there is a good builder He/She will ensure that there is enough steel in the foundation, nails in the timber etc etc and there will be no structural cracks. He/She will also ensure that no additives are added to the Lime Plaster and there are no cracks when it is dry.

Poor Uncle Tom

I do see what you are saying but you seem to be missing the point completely, my point is very basic.

Every tradesperson is responsible for their own works. Therefore no tradesperson can push that responsibility onto anyone else.

brendankelly

I agree completely that every tradesperson should be responsible for their own work but because the crack appears in the plaster does not mean the plasterer is responsible. The plasterer is always blamed for cracks.

muffler

Can we get back on topic here again please.

ronaldo84

brendankelly wrote: »

I agree completely that every tradesperson should be responsible for their own work but because the crack appears in the plaster does not mean the plasterer is responsible. The plasterer is always blamed for cracks.

i kinda agree with ya sometimes you can only do so much with what you given to work with. i also also agree with 99 transits vrs 09 VWs:mad:

sydthebeat

20goto10 wrote: »

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, I cannot find the building and construction forum.

I was wondering what the situation is with guarantees on home extensions. I'm guessing there must be laws that cover this. Basically my builder has decided to set his own terms and conditions with a 5 month guarantee. He says he'll fix any defects within that period but afterwards it's tough luck as far as he is concerned.

My feeling is there must be some sort of law to cover this and I can just ignore his terms as they are completely irrelevant. Am I right?

there HAS to be a period after which defects in a building become a maintenance issue rather than a initial building issue. This is usually dealth with within the building contract. A 12 month "defects liability period" (DLP) is usually seen as the maximum. For a home extension a 6 month DLP may seem more reasonable. This is usually intertwined with a condition of contract that a certain percentage of the tender price is retained by you, the client, until this DLP is over... at which stage a final defect list is complied (usually by your architect / technician). Once your contractor carries out these remedial works and the work is "signed off" then the project is deemed complete and any responsibility on the builder is lifted. Obviously fixtures and fittings will still be within warantee where applicable.

However, if there is no contract in place then there is no set legal onus on the builder and any court action will be down to a judge to deliberate the lenght of "duty of care" of the builder. As ive said 6 months may be deemed reasonable in this case.

You must understand that after this DLP, any defects that occur in the building ie broken windows, leaking pipes etc must be dealth with by you as the owner under a "continuous maintenance" duty. There is ALWAYS upkeep to be carried out in a dwelling.

The structure of the building is a bit of a grey area. If it is signed off by an architect / engineer then in theory their insurance is taking responsiblity. However, in cases where serious cracks appear after say 5-7 years then in a lot of cases the reason for these can be disingenuous. Any serious structural issues will usually make itself known within the first 12 months ie if the roof isnt strong enough, if there is serious ground movement etc.

one final note: AFAIK HOMEBOND dont take responsibility for extensions, only new dwellings. And anyway, they deal only with structural issues, and water / smoke damage.

brendankelly

As far as I know there is an EU Directive where by new systems must be insured. When I worked for a certain Hemp/lime plaster company I had to have a contract where by my insurance covered the plaster and workmanship for 5 years. Our system was to apply the plaster onto Heroclytt. We were asked to apply it onto panelvent but the builder would not show us where the panelvent was signed off on as a suitable material. . We did not do this job because in my opinion at the time it would not work and I no longer work for this company. Another guy tried to do it and I believe it is going to be settled in court. Other systems we work for guarantee their product provided recommended fitters are used.

My opinion is that the guy that draws up the specks will be liable when the bond between the plaster and the panelvent fails. This could take a few years but it will happen because of the green coat of paint (or whatever) on the panelvent. Personally I would not be sorry to see this plasterer in court but he did what he was told and his cracked plaster was whitewashed. This will be an interesting case and one I intend to follow.

On Topic. It is the builders job to ensure the concrete for the Foundation is strong enough etc etc and that there is a cap on the chimney and the specks are followed. The length of time a builder is responsible has to be determined by a judge because this is a new development because in the past people only got the best builder where as in the past 20 years people are getting the cheapest builder and corners are been cut.