Boy words or girl words...

Nevyn

http://thoughtsonblank.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/do-you-use-boy-words-or-girl-words-or-the-other-words-but-i-cant-amember-them/

Do you use Boy Words or Girl Words? Or the other words, but I can’t ‘amember them.

I met Alec when he was 3 years old. I was coming over to babysit – I had met some of Alec’s parents (4 of the 7 of them) at a polyamory event. Seven parents, all over the gender and sexuality spectrum. Eleven children, ages five months through 12 years. Two big houses. Alec was the only kid in the living room when I knocked. He full on bounded toward the door.

“Hi I’m Alec are you the babysitter mommy said that we can go to the park if you want to and feed the ducks do you like legos?”

“Yep, hi, my name is Andy.” I said, kneeling down, “Let me talk to one of your parents first, ok?”

While I was saying this Alec was looking me up and down.

“Yeah ok, hey, Andy, do you use boy words or girl words, or the other words but I can’t really ‘amember them?”

I looked curiously at his mom, Amelia, who was busy tiding up the table.

“Oh,” she said, “he can’t remember the word pronouns.”

“Ah,” it clicked, “I use boy words. What about you?”

“I use boy words, too. Do you like legos?”

“Of course I do!”

In that 45 second exchange Alec showed me that he knew more about gender than most adults I’ve met in my 23 years on this planet. Alec was, of course, in a unique spot, having three parents who didn’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. But his question, “do you use boy words or girl words or other words” (he/him/his, she/her/hers, some gender neutral option) was really a variant of the “are you a boy or a girl?” that I hear from half the kids I meet. He wanted to know what to call me. I later learned that the kids asked this question of almost any adult who walked into the house, regardless of their gender presentation. They had learned that momma’s friend, who may have long blonde hair and big boobs and be wearing a pink dress, might not use the pronouns she/her/hers. The older kids even occasionally asked a person they knew again if their appearance had changed drastically since they last saw them.

These were kids who Got It.

Sure, these kids grew up living with multiple transgender people in their house. Some had breastfed from somebody they referred to as “daddy” and they had no mental disconnect with that. But that same level of comfort with asking about gender can be explained to a kid who grows up the child of a heterosexual couple.

I have known Dorian since he was a baby, and intermittently lived at his house for 3-7 week stretches (I will never, ever know why his parents tolerate me). I came out as trans to his parents when he was under 2 years old (I believe his mom’s response was “no worries” and his dad’s was “it wasn’t exactly a shock” – point being these are cool folks). Dorian has pretty much always known me as Andy and heard people use he/him/his to refer to me. But the last time I was over, I guess sometime in April, he seemed to have no idea what I was. At one point he asked his mom and she said, “Honey, do you remember what Aunt Sarah said to do if you can’t tell if somebody’s a boy or a girl?” he didn’t respond. “You ask.”

You. Ask.

You don’t guess or dance around the subject or hope somebody else clues you in or wait for another person to use a pronoun so you can use the same one. You ASK.

Sometimes when a kid asks I ask back, “well, what do you think?” sometimes, to save time or a pissed off parent, I just answer what I’m feeling that day (or, to be frank, what I think will piss off the parent less).

But my point is that kids get it. That this world is changing and that kids GET it. There are kids being raised to simply ask about gender if they are uncertain. Have you ever heard a person refrain from using a pronoun for an entire conversation instead of asking? It’s one of the most awkward things ever. Kids aren’t OK with that nonsense. They just ask.

And there are adults who get it, too. Adults who are OK with stopping mid-something and having conversations like this

“So Andy and I were talking and… Hey, I realize I don’t know, what are your preferred pronouns?”

“he, him, his”

“Thanks. And he said that he can house-sit on the 9th, so we can go do Tom and Carole’s wedding if you want.”

No OH MY GOD FREAK OUT, no evasion, no awkwardness, no Big Giant Deal. Just “Hey, I realize I never asked, what are your pronouns?”

If 3 year old Alec can get it, then you can, too.

SugarHigh

What about all the times when asking someone their gender ends with you getting a slap?

If you ask a woman if she is male or female I don't think she would be too pleased. Having to ask everyone on the off chance they are trans seems a bit silly as well.

Nevyn

I think it depends on how you do it, how the question is put.
Still even if you do ask in a polite manner and you get a snarky/snotty reply,
well everyone has thier off days.

Wolfe Tone

There is no way I would do that tbh, a hell of a lot of people would feel insulted.


They could just tell you their preferred pronouns could they not?

Nevyn

People would be insulted that you are not assuming what gender they are?

Wolfe Tone

Some would yeah, as a poster alluded to earlier not many women, or men, would appreciate what is in effect you casting doubt on whether they are a woman/man or not by asking such a question.

Perhaps you can suggest a wording which would not do such?

Boston

Yes, some people would find it incredibly hurtful and offensive that their gender wasn't immediately apparent. I recall one ex-boards transgendered mtf user becoming very upset when after posting her image in a chat room people asked her if she was a guy.

Nevyn

I think free your mind and the rest will follow.

I think there is a difference between saying are you a man/boy or are you a woman/girl
is more loaded and asking what pronouns do you use.

That way of asking shows an awareness that gender is not a set binary from brith and is trying to respect the person and how they are.

LegacyUser

Thaedydal wrote: »

I think free your mind and the rest will follow.

I think there is a difference between saying are you a man/boy or are you a woman/girl
is more loaded and asking what pronouns do you use.

That way of asking shows an awareness that gender is not a set binary from brith and is trying to respect the person and how they are.

I don't think the direct question is inherently loaded, it's more that it gives no indication how the asker feels about transgenderism. It's a sensitive and personal fact about someone, similar to sexuality or one's salary, that potentially could alter the asker's opinion of the person. By asking in a more indirect way, there can be some assurance to the person being asked that the asker has no prejudice, that they are not asking in order to make a judgement.

I'm not sure asking someone if they use boy or girl words is an ideal solution though. If I ask someone that question, it means I can't definitively tell if they're male or female, and perhaps I'm wrong, but despite gender not being binary, I would imagine that most people would like to identify as, and be seen as one or the other, so there's pretty massive potential for insult by asking this question in the first place.

Wolfe Tone

I would imagine that most people would like to identify as, and be seen as one or the other, so there's pretty massive potential for insult by asking this question in the first place.

Exactly!

Thats why I would not ask it, while the sentiment is good, it will just lead to people feeling insulted.

deirdre_dub

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Some would yeah, as a poster alluded to earlier not many women, or men, would appreciate what is in effect you casting doubt on whether they are a woman/man or not by asking such a question.

Perhaps you can suggest a wording which would not do such?

The original post says that you ask "when you are not able to tell if it is a man or a woman".

So, the way to ask the question is to ask about that thing which causes the confusion in your head. For instance, if you see someone with breasts in a 3-piece suit, you could ask them about the suit.

(You could also ask them about their breasts, but I think asking them about their suit would be the better option! )

the_syco

These were kids who Got It.

They meant no offense, and if the person did take offense, they'd remember a kid had asked them, and wouldn't say anything, but think of how innocent the kids mind was.

=-=

I'd be afraid of insulting the person, so if it wasn't obvious to which sex they were trying to portray by their physical being, I wouldn't ask. If I saw a dude wearing makeup and jewelery, I'd sooner assume "emo" than I would "trans", but that may be more due to the metal pubs I goto, where you expect some emo's to dress like a woman.

=-=

To deirdre_dub's post, about a woman wearing a 3 piece suit, I'd see it as one of two things: a woman wearing a costume, or a feminist making a point. If it were the latter, and you asked them about their suit, be prepared for a history lesson on oppression if (like me) you're a dude.

NotYetKatie

Thanks Thaedydal. Loved reading it, It's nice to see or hope for a great possible future .

baby and crumble

about a woman wearing a 3 piece suit, I'd see it as one of two things: a woman wearing a costume, or a feminist making a point. If it were the latter, and you asked them about their suit, be prepared for a history lesson on oppression if (like me) you're a dude.

I wear a 3 piece suit (granted without the tie usually) for any formal occasions, work presentations etc... I'm neither wearing a costume nor a feminist making a point. 3 piece suits, cut for my shape, make me feel confident and help me clean up well.

bodice ripper

I don't know if this is a reasonable thing to expect people to do.

wealthyman

What is the OP attempting to say here?

It sounds like utter nonsense.

Wolfe Tone

wealthyman wrote: »

What is the OP attempting to say here?

It sounds like utter nonsense.

OP is trying to get people to ask people whose gender is questionable what pronouns they use(he or she etc) so no one gets offended, an impossibility I think.

Annasopra

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

OP is trying to get people to ask people whose gender is questionable what pronouns they use(he or she etc) so no one gets offended, an impossibility I think.

I don't think it's impossible at all

Boston

wealthyman wrote: »

What is the OP attempting to say here?

It sounds like utter nonsense.

That in an ideal world people wouldn't make assumptions about who and what you are.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

OP is trying to get people to ask people whose gender is questionable what pronouns they use(he or she etc) so no one gets offended, an impossibility I think.

I doubt that's what she is asking, more likely just putting forward a "what if?"

Mango Salsa wrote: »

I don't think it's impossible at all

Depends on the environment. If you were to do it in general Irish society you would offend far more people then you would if you just played it by ear and attempt to pick up on the social cues.

liah

I think it challenges people to question as to whether or not gender even really matters.

Why does it matter if the person uses boy or girl words? I mean, do we need those words at all? Does it make a difference? Does it change the person?

Interestingly enough it forces people to think of people as just.. people, instead of pre-defining them based upon their genitalia.

Not that I can envision any of that actually working in the real world, but it's lovely to think about.

Annasopra

Boston wrote: »

Depends on the environment. If you were to do it in general Irish society you would offend far more people then you would if you just played it by ear and attempt to pick up on the social cues.

yes but in specific circles within Irish society I don't see this as being a faux pas at all

Eebs

Mango Salsa wrote: »

yes but in specific circles within Irish society I don't see this as being a faux pas at all

What Mango said.


They're only asking you to ask about pronouns when it's difficult to tell what pronouns people use.

It's hardly going to be more offensive to ask then to hazard a guess and insult someone!!! and / or to leave them in that awkward position that they have to correct you.

It's not like you'll be asking people every 2 people what pronoun to use.

They should have a facebook group 'The awkwardness when someone uses the wrong pronoun'.. They probably do..

Annasopra

Eebs wrote: »

What Mango said.


They're only asking you to ask about pronouns when it's difficult to tell what pronouns people use.

It's hardly going to be more offensive to ask then to hazard a guess and insult someone!!! and / or to leave them in that awkward position that they have to correct you.

It's not like you'll be asking people every 2 people what pronoun to use.

They should have a facebook group 'The awkwardness when someone uses the wrong pronoun'.. They probably do..

Exactly

There is a person I know and his/her gender is ambiguous - this is probably a good way of asking how to speak about the person

I wouldnt be going around asking every person whos gender I was unsure of though

Annasopra

Interesting look at gender neutral pronouns in Baltimore

http://www.npr.org/blogs/codeswitch/2013/04/25/178788893/yo-said-what

Ambersky

I really liked the article in the Op and I have been asked by children of about 5 "are you a girl or a boy ?" because I guess, for children as young as this who are concerned with building up all their ideas about how the world works, they can have quite strong ideas of just what constitutes being a girl or being a boy and I guess sometimes I don't quite fit the bill for them.
I like to give them the answer "Yes" to that question about being a girl or a boy and many of them are sharp enough to enter into a playful, exasperated but not knowing if I am serious or just playing with them, argument about the matter.

I personally like the idea of challenging gender stereotype.

The article in the OP seems to be challenging gender stereotype and suggests that it is ok not to be clear about gender. One can be a girl or a boy.

I also think that femininity in males and masculinity in women are party, even largely taboo because of the fear of homophobia/lesbophobia. As in people want to be real men or real women and not to be a real man or woman is to be queer.

But how does this relaxed attitude to gender tie in with Trans issues?
If up to now we have, or some of us have, been asking cisgendered people to maybe relax a little and allow for ambiguity about gender, is it ok to ask the same thing from someone who is transexual. Or Is it that the actual reality of being in a body assigned with the wrong gender makes it an impossible issue to be relaxed about. And if so well then is all this talk about being relaxed about gender just an impossible theory.
There seem to be two conflicting theories here. Relaxed about gender and breaking gender stereotypes and the importance of gender for those assigned the wrong one.
Apologies if I am using terms incorrectly and I am open to learning more accurate ones. These are issues Im genuinely questioning in my head.
(by the way had to check for myself what a pronoun was, so I wouldnt have known what someone was asking if they wanted to know what pronouns I wanted to use. Like the idea though after it was explained. Bet that would catch more than me on the hop)

bodice ripper

i think if you are using exotic or unclear pronouns, the onus is on you to inform the people around you of your preference. About the same time as they are learning your name.