opinion of comformance with planning permission?

kilowhiskey

HI, this is my first post on boards.ie and hope this is the right forum.
I'm after some general advice or comment on a problem I'm having trying to buy a property in the south east. THe property is new, very nice and I offered almost the asking price to ensure it all goes through without too much trouble. However, my solicitor has discovered that the builder ( who is also the Vendor) has changed the sewage treatment plant from the one specficied in the planning permission, why I don't know. But solicitor says that he cannot obtain an "opinion of conformance with planning permission". I asked what this means to me as I'm a cash buyer and don;t need funds to buy. It appears that I could be served with an enforcement order to remove the plant and replace with one which meets the current sewage treatment regs. These are now more stringent than 2 years ago when the house was built and also apart from the expense, the site may not be able to meet them.

So my question is, what can be done to progress this?. Is there any way the current system can get retrospective approval?. I cannot believe that a lovely house like this is unsellable just because of this. Solicitor just states facts and it up to me to take the risk or not, which is understandable but unhelpful.

Anyone any ideas?...

rcdk1

Since it's a builder selling the property I would make it a condition of the sale that he does remedial works to comply with the original planning. He will be able to do this at a fraction of what it would cost you.

kilowhiskey

Thanks for the quick reply.

We asked the Vendor to carry out any procedure to that would leave us with no liablity to further costs. I don;t really know what is needed to achieve this either paper work or actual remedial work on the plant, but he said that to comply he needs to take out the current system and replace it. He says there's nothing wrong with the one installed ( apart from not been the one approved) and he's not prepared to do this work. I spoke to my surveyor, very helpful man, and he estimated that to do this would cost between 12k-15k euro. Vendor is not budging on price and won't fix the issue...

Is the planning system so rigid that a new treatment plant must be dug out and replaced to comply with a planning document? I suppose the answer is yes or I wouldn't having this difficult.... such a pity I really liked the proprerty..

gman2k

I'd get yourself a good architect/ tech to look over the entire build re compliance with building regulations as well - if you have not already done so.
I live in the SE, and all the one off houses I see being built locally do not comply with L, M or F in particular, yet they are getting compliance certs from their own engineers.....
Does the property come with a BER

sas

Think of it like this. Where else did this guy decide that he could make a change to?

Did he downgrade the insulation required by building regs for example?

In all likelihood the sewage treatment system installed was cheaper.

You'll soon not care about how nice the property is if all manner of things start going wrong or if it's costing alot to heat.

Regardless of how good a surveyor you have over look the house, there's alot that can't be investigated without the likes of thermal imaging etc. which isn't part of a standard survey.

It's very easy for the heart to sweep us away when looking at properties, I'd recommend a healthy level of caution here though.

kilowhiskey

gman2k wrote: »

I'd get yourself a good architect/ tech to look over the entire build re compliance with building regulations as well - if you have not already done so.
I live in the SE, and all the one off houses I see being built locally do not comply with L, M or F in particular, yet they are getting compliance certs from their own engineers.....
Does the property come with a BER

Thanks gman2k I appreciate your input, I had a very good surveyor go over the building, he done a very good and detailed job and, apart from minor snags, got a clean bill of health. But I think he's not willing to say if it's in compliance with building regs. Says that there should be a Architects Cert as it's him that can say whether it complied or not during construction. Architect was contacted and won;t sign full cert as he says he only supervised up to foundations being laid, and will only certify these complied.

I'm not familiar with the building regs so don;t know sections L,M or F apply to.

Vendor says that he'll supply BER cert but not until we've exchange contracts, maybe too late by then, but what can you do with the information anyway?.

But in fairness I'm really concerned as to the planning permission issue as I see that I may be liable for a big bill in the future if this is not resolved now. I am told that the regulations for sewage treatment plants are changing soon and all systems that discharge waste water through percolation will need a license. Don;t know if this applies to current systems or just new, but replacing the system in the future could bring us into this net.

rcdk1

gman2k wrote: »

I'd get yourself a good architect/ tech engineer to look over the entire build re compliance with building regulations as well - if you have not already done so.

FYP

Does the local Area Engineer/Planner know about this issue? If not, tell the vendor that you're arranging a meeting to discuss the issue. It may be enough to get him to either fix the problem or drop his price.

muffler

Moved to C & P forum

sinnerboy

kilowhiskey wrote: »

Vendor says that he'll supply BER cert but not until we've exchange contracts, maybe too late by then, but what can you do with the information anyway?.

The BER cert and report will flag compliance with Part L . Under no circumstances should you exchange contracts without this . Insist on seeing the air tightness test result . He has to have one to comply with Part L .

What renewables has he provided ? Is it enough ?

L driver

Walk away....plenty more houses for sale. Would you buy a second hand car off a garage with the wrong gearbox and the salesman holding the NCT until you sign the dotted line....C'mon.

Bicycle

I'd be inclined to make an appointment with a local planning officer and have a chat with them.

Explain that you're interested in buying the house and you want to check that everything is in order.

If they can reassure you that everything is in order, then you should be fine as these will be the people that will be doing the enforcement.

I speak as someone who is in the middle of a very problematic extension build at the moment. So far we've had 3 visits from the enforcement officer and we're due another on the 1st February. The planning officers and the enforcement officers have very little to do at the moment so they're quite happy to (a) talk and (b) make unexpected visits.

Good luck - if you are worried walk away.

mickdw

The builder guy obviously stuck in the cheapest tank he could - possibly even a traditional septic tank.
If you are pretty happy with the house in all other aspects, simply reduce your offer by say €10,000. I cant image the builder will have too many other options tbh. Every buyer is going to spot this a mile off.
The idea of him not showing the BER cert is a joke. Depending on build date, an air test may not be required but he certainly has to produce the BER to you.
I wouldnt go talking to the planners to be honest. You would be opening a can of worms for yourself if in fact you do buy it. The tank can be replaced now without any planning issues. If the planners get involved, anything could happen, they could insist on new percolation tests etc and base the whole thing on current regs which could be a nightmare (if the site was borderline 5 years ago for example).
So I would request BER, Alter your offer if buying as is & have a thorough inspection carried out.
An empty threat of going to the planners would be no harm but foolish to actually do it.

No6

If he changed from one unit to another as long as it provides the treatment to the level required it should be fine but you must get the Council to approve this. Get the vendor to write to the council ref the plannng reference number and request approval for the unit installed. If its conditioned a treatment unit and hes put in a standard tank run and keep running!! The original Architect is most likely owed money by the builder and won't sign compliance untill paid up to date.

martin46585

issues like these, especially waste water have a tendency to crop up in times of original sales and most importantly for you on resales, so maybe now in the time to dot your i's and cross you t's, for future plans, you may very well be vendor in a decade or so...............

kilowhiskey

I'd like to thank all the contributors, your response was fantastic. It has given me a much better perspective on this issue. The Vendors attitude has been that it's a trival matter and happens all the time in Ireland and that I'm being over fussy. From your input I can see that this is just hyperbole, there is a real concern here.
The house is very nice and to be honest one of the best finished houses I have seen. Loads of others seemed just thrown together. The builder spared no expense in other areas, such as goethermal heating, he installed one the dearest on the market, the tiling and woodwork were first class. So I cannot understand why the change away from that designated by planning requirements to save a few thousand euro. The system he installed is called Tri-cell, but I don;t know if this is cheaper or dearer than others.

I'll try to put it to him that he should engage with the planning officer to produce a plan to rectify the situation and I'll commit to go ahead if such a plan can be produced. If there is cost involved I'll expect that amount off the agreed price. Do you think this is fair?.

sas

kilowhiskey wrote: »

I'll try to put it to him that he should engage with the planning officer to produce a plan to rectify the situation and I'll commit to go ahead if such a plan can be produced. If there is cost involved I'll expect that amount off the agreed price. Do you think this is fair?.

IMHO I believe that you should insist that the situation be rectified before you complete the purchase, rather than taking on the job yourself having agreed a reduction in the price.

My thoughts being that things have a tendency to crop up once you start digging. I'm only going on stories here however so the construction professionals here will no doubt provide guidance around this.

Also, why should the hassle be on you to resolve this if it must be done either way.

I believe you are in a strong position here. This issue should affect the sale to anyone, not just you. You've stated that you offered close on the asking price which is unusual enough in the current climate. You don't require a mortgage which makes your position very strong. Stand firm on this.

Good luck.

L driver

Heatpump, even top of the range, if installed poorly and in a house that there might not be adequate insulation could lead to high bills. As a vote of confidence ask the builder to let you monitor the heatpump over the cold spell.

sydthebeat

kilo, a few questions:

1. has the vendor produced a "certificate of compliance with planning permission and building regulations" on the dwelling ?

2. does that certificate make any reference to the treatment system and/or the conditions of planning pertaining to the system

3. does the builder / vendor have details of what system is used? if so, what is it? was it commissioned by the manufacturers and if so, is there a commissioning certificate? is there a maintanence contract signed?

4. the sale cannot legally go through without a BER certificate. In my experience these are usually asked for by the vending solicitor at the last minute. Insist on it now!


all the advice about getting the vendors to recify the issue is correct. If they truly want to make the sale, then they should offer a clean product to sell. If they do not want to offer a clean product to sell, then they should realise that they have to offer a reasonable discount in lieu.


as an aside.... if i was buying a dwelling with a heat pump, i would pay for an air tightness and energy assessment test myself, before committing to any purchase. If the building stanards are at best "minimal2 or "standard" then a heat pump will cost you a fortune to run. I would only purchase a house with a heat pump/UFH if it is at least A rated and with an airtightness result of 3 or better. Ask to see photographs from the site inspections of teh certifying architect / engineer. If there is no certifier... then run a mile!!!!

If the builder was truely honest about offering a low energy house for sale he would have made sure to have a BER assessment carried out before constrution commenced, ensured that the insulation levels were above standard, ensured that it was inspected by a competent professional, and ensured that it had a final BER assessment carried out.

it doesnt seem he was too interested in doing this.

having nice finishes in a dwelling is nice, but as useful as lipstick on a gorilla if its a leaky cold house......

kilowhiskey

Hi Syd.

I've tried to answer you points below:-

sydthebeat wrote: »

kilo, a few questions:

1. has the vendor produced a "certificate of compliance with planning permission and building regulations" on the dwelling ?

No. This is what we're stuck on. Change to treatment plant type is not had approval and he won't take any further action to change this situation.

sydthebeat wrote: »

2. does that certificate make any reference to the treatment system and/or the conditions of planning pertaining to the system

No Cert so not really.

sydthebeat wrote: »

3. does the builder / vendor have details of what system is used? if so, what is it? was it commissioned by the manufacturers and if so, is there a commissioning certificate? is there a maintanence contract signed?

The system installed is called Tri-cell and vendor says the property has been unoccupied since completion, so no maitenance contract in place. Says it's up to buyer to arrange this.

sydthebeat wrote: »

4. the sale cannot legally go through without a BER certificate. In my experience these are usually asked for by the vending solicitor at the last minute. Insist on it now!

Last three letters from my solicitor included a request for a copy of the BER. Ignored the first, said after the second that it ws being carried out, at the third said it would be done after exchange of contracts.

sydthebeat wrote: »

all the advice about getting the vendors to recify the issue is correct. If they truly want to make the sale, then they should offer a clean product to sell. If they do not want to offer a clean product to sell, then they should realise that they have to offer a reasonable discount in lieu.

Yes your right, I feel I'm the one making all the running here
and I'm a cash buyer. Feel he should be making an effort to keep me on side, but I sometimes think he doesn;t really want to sell......

sydthebeat wrote: »

as an aside.... if i was buying a dwelling with a heat pump, i would pay for an air tightness and energy assessment test myself, before committing to any purchase. If the building stanards are at best "minimal2 or "standard" then a heat pump will cost you a fortune to run. I would only purchase a house with a heat pump/UFH if it is at least A rated and with an airtightness result of 3 or better. Ask to see photographs from the site inspections of teh certifying architect / engineer. If there is no certifier... then run a mile!!!!

Good point thanks for this, its hard to get straight facts and figures like this.

sydthebeat wrote: »

If the builder was truely honest about offering a low energy house for sale he would have made sure to have a BER assessment carried out before constrution commenced, ensured that the insulation levels were above standard, ensured that it was inspected by a competent professional, and ensured that it had a final BER assessment carried out.

it doesnt seem he was too interested in doing this.

I'm begining to see this now, at first thought he was conscientious and a cut above the other builders I'd seen. But these issues have really depressed my original opinion of him.

sydthebeat wrote: »

having nice finishes in a dwelling is nice, but as useful as lipstick on a gorilla if its a leaky cold house......

, you wouldn't want to kiss that one...