BULL BEEF-DOES IT PAY?

defadman

currently i buy weanling bull calves, thet range from e to r grade calves. i feed them on and sell them as stores, i was wondering should i go down the bull beef route and if so, does it pay?

sh1tstirrer

Does the system you are on now pay? You would want big numbers to make bull beef pay and it is also a high cost system.

snakeeye

yes it does pay i feed 700 bulls every year would never sell as stores feeding cattle for some one else and doing all the hard work

connormi

Any ideas on what price r grade bulls making at the moment

oldhead

snakeeye wrote: »

yes it does pay i feed 700 bulls every year would never sell as stores feeding cattle for some one else and doing all the hard work

Snakeeye, i have just started feeding bullocks myself. what do you feed them that works best. i am feeding them a maize nut but it is costly. any tips for a new man to this system. any help would be greatly appreciated

Dupont

the man i work with is a suckler and beef farmer. keeps all his bull calves and sells heifers as weanlings and buys replacement bulls and bullocks. he is always addding it up to see what an animal cost to feed and until the price rise there wasnt much to be celebrating about

sh1tstirrer

Dupont wrote: »

the man i work with is a suckler and beef farmer. keeps all his bull calves and sells heifers as weanlings and buys replacement bulls and bullocks. he is always addding it up to see what an animal cost to feed and until the price rise there wasnt much to be celebrating about

It's hard to make money from sucklers as you have to feed a cow all year round just to produce a calf and rear it. I was thinking would suckler farmers make more money by having a few dairy cows and rearing 10 calves under them in different batches. I know the breeding wouldn't be the best for beef but you could rear a lot of calves with very few cows.

defadman

fair enough snakeye, but not everyone has 700 calves. liffey mills do a good ration, super thrive beef nut thats reasonable in price

Muckit

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

It's hard to make money from sucklers as you have to feed a cow all year round just to produce a calf and rear it. I was thinking would suckler farmers make more money by having a few dairy cows and rearing 10 calves under them in different batches. I know the breeding wouldn't be the best for beef but you could rear a lot of calves with very few cows.

On the point of keeping the suckler cow, what are the latest figures being bandied around? €400/year...more???? Just trying to compare with buying weanlings at 300-330kgs

reilig

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

It's hard to make money from sucklers as you have to feed a cow all year round just to produce a calf and rear it. I was thinking would suckler farmers make more money by having a few dairy cows and rearing 10 calves under them in different batches. I know the breeding wouldn't be the best for beef but you could rear a lot of calves with very few cows.

Irish farmers should be concentrating on quality rather than quantity in my opinion. Its costs much the same to keep a bad cow as a good cow. But the bad cow's calf can sell for €300 where the good cow's calf can make €1000

My personal experience is that it doesn't cost me as much as some people on this forum claim it costs them to keep a cow.
Look at these prices from a few weeks back that someone put on this forum:

fert E94/cow
silage 5 mth winter 9 bales /cow E166/c6w
spread slurry/agitate spread dung E90/cow
straw for winter E35/cow
vet/ a.i E90/cow
pedegree reg's E40/cow
misselanous E90/cow - hoof paring, scanning, fencing ect

I did up some figures from last year (2009) for the costs of keeping 60 suckler cows on my farm (130 acres)

Fertilizer €2200 or €37 per cow

Silage (not including fertilizer costs) €12 per bale x 9 bales per cow = 108 per cow

Slurry €90 per cow

Bedding - only bedded calves and used free mushroom compost that was delivered to the farm which has been disinfected and I had dried it. Total = 0

Vet/AI = an average of €60 per cow as only 20 got ai, the rest got stock bull. Total = €60

No pedigree Registrations = 0

Miscelaneous = Scanning = €3 per cow, No Hoof paring, fencing = €1500 for year or €25 per cow and another €25 for other Misc. Total = 53

Add all of those up and the cost of me keeping a suckler cow was €348.

Am I missing something??? Feel free to add your additional costs.

Fertilizer costs are very low - this is due to a low stocking rate and a good use of slurry. (Urea was the only fertilizer bought onto the farm in 2009).
Cows are fed on a grass and hay/silage system - no ration fed to cows.

In answer to the op. I find that keeping sucklers and selling weinlings pays better than bull beef.

blue5000

Hi relig, thanks for putting those figures up. Have you a typo on the slurry, should it be 9 e per cow? Will you be able to keep on using only urea?

Did you use creep ration, or I'm wondering have you left it out because it went straight to the calf? If you have only one enterprise on the farm (suckling) should you include it?

reilig

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi relig, thanks for putting those figures up. Have you a typo on the slurry, should it be 9 e per cow? Will you be able to keep on using only urea?

Did you use creep ration, or I'm wondering have you left it out because it went straight to the calf? If you have only one enterprise on the farm (suckling) should you include it?

That was the price for slurry that I was reconing for capital purchases, depreciation and diesel for the tractor, tanker and agitator on an annual basis - I spread a lot of slurry and have a lot of tank space. Maybe my figure is a little high for it, but than only emphasises my point more. I won't get to use as much urea this year as soil samples have shown some of my land to be low in P and K and my planner is currently drawing up a fertilizer plan for me for this year based on the soil samples.

I use creep ration on all caves but didn't put it in in the above pricing because I was only giving the cost of keeping a cow rather than a cow and calf. I just cannot understand where people are getting this figure of €600 per year for keeping a suckler cow. People must have electric blankets around the cows in the pen and be giving them a 50:50 ration:caviar diet??????

People are coming on here advising people to consider bull beef, bucket feeding calves or alternative enterprises and basing this advice on the cost of keeping a suckler cow being €600 per year but this figure seems to have been plucked out of the sky and I suspect that a lot of people have similar costs to me.

Atilathehun

reilig wrote: »

That was the price for slurry that I was reconing for capital purchases, depreciation and diesel for the tractor, tanker and agitator on an annual basis - I spread a lot of slurry and have a lot of tank space. Maybe my figure is a little high for it, but than only emphasises my point more.

I use creep ration on all caves but didn't put it in in the above pricing because I was only giving the cost of keeping a cow rather than a cow and calf. I just cannot understand where people are getting this figure of €600 per year for keeping a suckler cow. People must have electric blankets around the cows in the pen and be giving them a 50:50 ration:caviar diet??????

People are coming on here advising people to consider bull beef, bucket feeding calves or alternative enterprises and basing this advice on the cost of keeping a suckler cow being €600 per year but this figure seems to have been plucked out of the sky and I suspect that a lot of people have similar costs to me.

Ah, but is it a bit unfair exclude the cost of the creep. It is an input just as much as everything else required to generate revenue from the cow in the form of sale of a calf. If a man has a full suckler enterprise and sells all the calves, the only way to establish average unit cost it to spread all costs over the total number of cows, including cost of creep feeding the calves and feeding the stock bull if you have one.

The other way to do it is spread all costs over the number of calves sold!
Your product is calves sold to market. Spreading all the costs of teh enterprise over net number of calves sold, compared to net income from the calves sold, soon tells you the real story with profitabnility or otherwise.
I tend to think that measuring the cost of keeping a cow per year can get a bit confusing. Doing over calves sold, is a bit more revealing, as you can compare in a jiffy to the sales income:cool: No place left to hide:p

reilig

Atilathehun wrote: »

Ah, but is it a bit unfair exclude the cost of the creep. It is an input just as much as everything else required to generate revenue from the cow in the form of sale of a calf. If a man has a full suckler enterprise and sells all the calves, the only way to establish average unit cost it to spread all costs over the total number of cows, including cost of creep feeding the calves and feeding the stock bull if you have one.

The other way to do it is spread all costs over the number of calves sold!
Your product is calves sold to market. Spreading all the costs of teh enterprise over net number of calves sold, compared to net income from the calves sold, soon tells you the real story with profitabnility or otherwise.
I tend to think that measuring the cost of keeping a cow per year can get a bit confusing. Doing over calves sold, is a bit more revealing, as you can compare in a jiffy to the sales income:cool: No place left to hide:p

I wasn't really talking about profit and I didn't think that others were posting directly about profit (although I know that ultimately it comes down to profit), it was more about the cost of feeding, bedding and health care costs for the cows. As i said in my original post on this thread, your cow costs much the same to keep whether she has a calf or not and whether she has a good or a bad calf. In my opinion, feeding the calf creep is something that farmers can choose to do or not do do and the amount of money that they choose to spend on creep for each calf does not increase the amount of money that it costs to feed the cow. People in previous threads did not use the cost of creep feed in their calculations for the cost of keeping a cow - nor did Teagasc. if they did, then it is likely that the average cost of keeping a cow could in some cases reach €800 per year. (When you add the cost of creep to the figure of €600 quoted for keeping a cow). I suppose its all relative, but what i am asking is what are the true figures????

snowman707

reilig wrote: »

Irish farmers should be concentrating on quality rather than quantity in my opinion. Its costs much the same to keep a bad cow as a good cow. But the bad cow's calf can sell for €300 where the good cow's calf can make €1000

My personal experience is that it doesn't cost me as much as some people on this forum claim it costs them to keep a cow.
Look at these prices from a few weeks back that someone put on this forum:



I did up some figures from last year (2009) for the costs of keeping 60 suckler cows on my farm (130 acres)

Fertilizer €2200 or €37 per cow

Silage (not including fertilizer costs) €12 per bale x 9 bales per cow = 108 per cow

Slurry €90 per cow

Bedding - only bedded calves and used free mushroom compost that was delivered to the farm which has been disinfected and I had dried it. Total = 0

Vet/AI = an average of €60 per cow as only 20 got ai, the rest got stock bull. Total = €60

No pedigree Registrations = 0

Miscelaneous = Scanning = €3 per cow, No Hoof paring, fencing = €1500 for year or €25 per cow and another €25 for other Misc. Total = 53

Add all of those up and the cost of me keeping a suckler cow was €348.

Am I missing something??? Feel free to add your additional costs.

Fertilizer costs are very low - this is due to a low stocking rate and a good use of slurry. (Urea was the only fertilizer bought onto the farm in 2009).
Cows are fed on a grass and hay/silage system - no ration fed to cows.

In answer to the op. I find that keeping sucklers and selling weinlings pays better than bull beef.

Calving interval , pointless quoting for a year if the the cow is not producing a calf in that time

Replacement costs , even if you rear your own that costs money and is taken as cost , even though some tea***c advisers seem think otherwise

reilig

snowman707 wrote: »

Calving interval , pointless quoting for a year if the the cow is not producing a calf in that time

Replacement costs , even if you rear your own that costs money and is taken as cost , even though some tea***c advisers seem think otherwise

Totally agree Snowman. There are so many variables that we haven't taken into consideration and I suppose that we could argue it up and down and everyone would have a different valid opinion. I have found that the sale value of cull cows in the last few years has more than covered the cost of replacements but in the past, it hasn't and probably won't in the future.

Dunedin

reilig wrote: »

Irish farmers should be concentrating on quality rather than quantity in my opinion. Its costs much the same to keep a bad cow as a good cow. But the bad cow's calf can sell for €300 where the good cow's calf can make €1000

My personal experience is that it doesn't cost me as much as some people on this forum claim it costs them to keep a cow.
Look at these prices from a few weeks back that someone put on this forum:



I did up some figures from last year (2009) for the costs of keeping 60 suckler cows on my farm (130 acres)

Fertilizer €2200 or €37 per cow

Silage (not including fertilizer costs) €12 per bale x 9 bales per cow = 108 per cow

Slurry €90 per cow

Bedding - only bedded calves and used free mushroom compost that was delivered to the farm which has been disinfected and I had dried it. Total = 0

Vet/AI = an average of €60 per cow as only 20 got ai, the rest got stock bull. Total = €60

No pedigree Registrations = 0

Miscelaneous = Scanning = €3 per cow, No Hoof paring, fencing = €1500 for year or €25 per cow and another €25 for other Misc. Total = 53

Add all of those up and the cost of me keeping a suckler cow was €348.

Am I missing something??? Feel free to add your additional costs.

Fertilizer costs are very low - this is due to a low stocking rate and a good use of slurry. (Urea was the only fertilizer bought onto the farm in 2009).
Cows are fed on a grass and hay/silage system - no ration fed to cows.

In answer to the op. I find that keeping sucklers and selling weinlings pays better than bull beef.

maybe I'm missing a bit here but there are a lot of the costs that are constantly associated with sucklers that are equally applicable to any livestock i.e. sheep, cattle etc.

I'm talking about fertiliser, fencing, bedding, silage, depreciation, slurry, vet, misc.

unfortunately the truth of the farming matter is that there is no fortune to be made out of any enterprise or otherwise we woudl all be doing it.

for me the type of farming can be almost a personal choice coupled with the type of farm you have and the set up with it. for me, I've always had sucklers at home and wouldn't like to get out of them. I had sheep for many years but I did get out of them. others are happy to keep only beef (steers) cattle whilst others like tillage or diary.

bogman_bass

I agree with the statement above. the cost of rearing/buying replacements is a serrious cost.
also the cost of your stock bull is fairly big too

snowman707

Dunedin wrote: »

maybe I'm missing a bit here but there are a lot of the costs that are constantly associated with sucklers that are equally applicable to any livestock i.e. sheep, cattle etc.

I'm talking about fertiliser, fencing, bedding, silage, depreciation, slurry, vet, misc.

.

add in income tax, farm insurance , all those and some more i can't think of to hand have to be paid from farm income and so must be taken in to account.

Muckit

Muckit wrote: »

On the point of keeping the suckler cow, what are the latest figures being bandied around? €400/year...more???? Just trying to compare with buying weanlings at 300-330kgs

Alot of posters on here are undoubtedly correct. I suppose to set up a true comparision of the cost of buying weanlings vs. rearing sucklers yourself, 'the cost of keeping the cow' isn't the true yard stick, only a small part of it. The calf up until the point of agreed comparitive weight has its own costs. As pointed out, his costings for creep feed (if any), dehorning, tagging, dosing etc etc must be taken into account.

I should have posed the question:

'How much does it cost to rear a weanling to xxxx kg?'

If this figure could be calculated, then it could be compared to the cost of going out and buying a similiar weanling (same sex, age, breed, weight, conformation)

THEN you'd be well on the road to knowing whether it pays (financially anyways) to rear your own or not;)

severeoversteer

So lads do you think bull beef would be viable with lower grain prices after this harvest, the recent decline in grain prices has only impacted on the nut I buy by only 20 euro a tonne, are the mils slow to lower prices ?

with beef prices slipping does it make sense to have bulls with high growth rate to counteract the lower beef price?

theres a million ways of looking at it being the worst type of beef farming as regards cost, but try to keep the chin up lads

have never finished a bull in our place its all 'steers'

the thread to date has covered it in detail but input prices have gone up in the meantime and hopefully will continue to go down

Muckit

If the price/kg meal is down, but you have to buy a sh*t load of it, then the end result ain't cheap!!

Couple that with bull beef being a very volatile low margin enterprise even for the seasoned 'pros'...

Walk away.....

If you are running a tight ship as it is with your bullocks you will not better it by turning to bull beef. Why not use the potentially low price of meal this autumn to your advantage in your current system.

Is there any other reason bar low meal price that is twisting your arm towards bull beef????

severeoversteer

Muckit wrote: »

If the price/kg meal is down, but you have to buy a sh*t load of it, then the end result ain't cheap!!

Couple that with bull beef being a very volatile low margin enterprise even for the seasoned 'pros'...

Walk away.....

If you are running a tight ship as it is with your bullocks you will not better it by turning to bull beef. Why not use the potentially low price of meal this autumn to your advantage in your current system.

Is there any other reason bar low meal price that is twisting your arm towards bull beef????

ok i think i need to explain my thinking, i am continuing to run my full steer finishing set up as its profitable and ran as efficiently as possible, what i was thinking was buy 9 month bull weanlings (charolais or simmental) in october november, outwinter them on rape + straw+ supplement for 4 months , they would be 13 months old then. then bring them into the shed just vacated by the steers and put them on finishing diet for 150 days, and kill them out of the shed in late june earlyjuly at the latest. that would be 18 month old bulls at finished animal.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HuXs8sl2mpIJ:ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scah/out54_en.pdf+18+month+bull+beef+continental&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

go to pages 23-25

49801

Straw shed or rubber covered slats?
I finished bulls last year. I found it tied up a lot of cash and if the factory price starts dropping its painful.

Check out my thread from last year http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80264634

severeoversteer

49801 wrote: »

Straw shed or rubber covered slats?
I finished bulls last year. I found it tied up a lot of cash and if the factory price starts dropping its painful.

Check out my thread from last year http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80264634

slats with lie back, im good for money and the accounts side dont mind having alot of money out on cattle as long as they are thriving and i have a good outlet for them when they are fit for the kill;)

case 5150

severeoversteer wrote: »

slats with lie back, im good for money and the accounts side dont mind having alot of money out on cattle as long as they are thriving and i have a good outlet for them when they are fit for the kill;)

WONT be good for money when you have the bulls fed and killed

Muckit

So the advice is no so far, but the only way you will be happy now and to know for sure if bull beef is a good idea is to go hell for leather at it anyway to be sure to be sure

bogman_bass

My view of bull beef in general is that when it goes right it goes very well but there are far more pit falls with the system

Dampintheattic

Beef, any beef, in this country, pays, if, when and by how much, when Larry says so.

severeoversteer

Dampintheattic wrote: »

Beef, any beef, in this country, pays, if, when and by how much, when Larry says so.

what if your not killing them in the republic ? I have killed hardly animals in the republic better price elsewhere. more paperwork but worth it of you can wait a few days.;)

bob charles

Dampintheattic wrote: »

Beef, any beef, in this country, pays, if, when and by how much, when Larry says so.

I dont agree, yes I may moan about beef price but this is outside our control. FCE, LWG and KO% and initial price are within our control and are the most important things to stand a chance at making money

bob charles

severeoversteer wrote: »

what if your not killing them in the republic ? I have killed hardly animals in the republic better price elsewhere. more paperwork but worth it of you can wait a few days.;)

loss of fresh weight with longer travel and lairage times, harder trimming and slower pay dont make this an attractive proposition. It was attractive up to the turn of last year;)

bob charles

There was money in bulls when there was a suckler cow premium, bull premium or 180 I think, grain was at £110 a ton and we were taking 79p an lb at slaughter, young bulls back then got a premium over bullocks. this isnt so long ago. Used to finish allot of bulls through the 90's but gave it up about 8 - 10 years when things changed. Still would have odds and ends of bulls around bought in singles etc when a bit of value about.

Looking at 8 bulls I left our the 20 of Feb, 4 of them have come back in lame. Going to be looking at these hoors for another month doing little or no thrive just to get them up to fat score. Bulls grading 2's are going to be penalized heavily as bull are just not wanted over 16 month any more

Dampintheattic

bob charles wrote: »

I dont agree, yes I may moan about beef price but this is outside our control. FCE, LWG and KO% and initial price are within our control and are the most important things to stand a chance at making money

And Larry, has no influence over what you get quoted as your KO %
Or your grading ............

bob charles

Dampintheattic wrote: »

And Larry, has no influence over what you get quoted as your KO %
Or your grading ............

Are you saying they are fiddling weights???? or fiddling the grading machines????

Dampintheattic

bob charles wrote: »

Are you saying they are fiddling weights???? or fiddling the grading machines????

No, not at all. That just wouldn't happen, because beef plants have excellent procedures and controls.

blue5000

bob charles wrote: »

Are you saying they are fiddling weights???? or fiddling the grading machines????

When if ever do meat factories get the scales audited? The only way of knowing KO% is if you weigh cattle live on the day you kill them. Then there is gut fill, trim and 2% shrinkage loss from hot to cold weight to take into account. Even if you are suspicious about a scales how do you do anything about it?

bob charles

well I have killed plenty of cattle at different plants but one thing for sure is that I have never being disappointed with the grades and weights from ABP.


"the men" from the department are often in around the scales and grading machines looking at tolerances etc

blue5000

bob charles wrote: »

well I have killed plenty of cattle at different plants but one thing for sure is that I have never being disappointed with the grades and weights from ABP.


"the men" from the department are often in around the scales and grading machines looking at tolerances etc

What about the price Bob;)?

bob charles

blue5000 wrote: »

What about the price Bob;)?

always over the moon with the price, usually pay 30c more than everyone else:(

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

I dont agree, yes I may moan about beef price but this is outside our control. FCE, LWG and KO% and initial price are within our control and are the most important things to stand a chance at making money

Watched a man pay €100 more than anyone else for 300-350kg CH bulls in Ennis last week. :rolleyes:

bob charles

just do it wrote: »

Watched a man pay €100 more than anyone else for 300-350kg CH bulls in Ennis last week. :rolleyes:

there was another man willing to pay 90 more than everyone else aswell so apart from the buyers. Good chance these guys know what they are doing. There arent took many snowmen around the cattle rings

just do it

bob charles wrote: »

there was another man willing to pay 90 more than everyone else aswell so apart from the buyers. Good chance these guys know what they are doing. There arent took many snowmen around the cattle rings

707 ?

Dont be daft

We've run dairy steer and dairy bull alongside each other and I can't understand how anyone would make money off dairy steer.

The steers were usually getting about €50 a head less and were on farm for about 3-4 months longer.

If you ran a bull operation like you run a steer operation you'd lose your shirt.
Losses are usually higher, management has to be perfect and workload probably doubles but there's no comparison in the two systems in terms of gross profit per acre.

Mind you, its been a steep learning curve for us.
Finishing steers seems so simple now looking back (Probably a touch of the rose tinted glasses there though:o)