VHF

senordingdong

I am looking at getting a new tv but don't want to buy sky ntl etc...

So I think I am looking for a tv with a VHF(?) tuner...so that I will not only get RTE, but BBC, channel 4 etc... aswell.

I can't find VHF listed on the specs so is this the right thing?

Randyleprechaun

It all depends on where you are getting your RTE signals from. You may not need a VHF tuner. You may be getting all your channels on UHF.

Let us know where you are and if poss. where your aerial(s) are pointing to and someone on here should know!!!!

senordingdong

I live in Dublin 13.

I had one tv before that got all these stations for free...it was a panasonic I think.
Then I got a walker and it couldn't get any of them....could barely even get rte.

Now I'm looking at a Sony, and the current owner reckons it'll only get rte1, 2 etc...

watty

In Dublin you don't need VHF.

It's doubtful you need VHF anywhere.
http://www.saortv.info/channels/
http://www.saortv.info/news/

If you want the UK channels free you need a Freesat system. (Dish + Freesat HD box)
http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/freesat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free-to-air_channels_in_the_UK
http://www.freesat.co.uk/what-you-get/our-channels/

Once off cost.



I suspect you were getting the channels from UPC, which is definitely not free. (Bought NTL and Chorus).
You don't need VHF for that either as the Analogue is less channels, poorer quality and costs more than their Digital Service that includes a Set-box with SCART and HDMI.

Randyleprechaun

If you get a tv with MPEG4 tuner/saorview certified you should be able to pick up the DTT service easily in Dublin. You should get the other channels that you mentioned also as they are most likely on UHF.(if thats how you were receiving them on previous TV, and not thru NTL or something as Watty says)

All that of course is dependant on your aerial(s) having not moved etc etc.

I'm not an expert on Dublin area but I doubt you need VHF there

Watty has it dead on.......bet me to it

watty

Very, very few people in Dublin have the massive pole and giant UHF aerial to receive Welsh, IOM or N.I. BBC/ITV etc via an aerial anymore. Dish install is cheaper and more reliable.

senordingdong

watty wrote: »

I suspect you were getting the channels from UPC, which is definitely not free. (Bought NTL and Chorus).
You don't need VHF for that either as the Analogue is less channels, poorer quality and costs more than their Digital Service that includes a Set-box with SCART and HDMI.

Thanks for the list, but one thing I don't get is that I wasn't subscribed to UPC or anything else. But was getting BBC, UTV, E4....not Sky though....

I'm confused.

I'm in an apartment block if that changes anything.

watty

Yes it was cable. Sometimes it's connected.

Mike 1972

watty wrote: »

In Dublin you don't need VHF..

Unless you might want to watch analouge cabe as well ?

(It might still be around after 2012. They still have it in parts of the Netherlands even though the terrestrial transmitters are now entirely digital)

senordingdong

watty wrote: »

Yes it was cable. Sometimes it's connected.

Ok.

It's just that I had nothing connected so that's why I thought it was an antenna/aerial.

watty

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Unless you might want to watch analouge cabe as well ?

(It might still be around after 2012. They still have it in parts of the Netherlands even though the terrestrial transmitters are now entirely digital)

Why?
It rubbish quality and costs more than Digital for less channels.

senordingdong

So Watty. what do you recommend?

If I think I understand you correctly, then a new tv would change nothing.
I might aswell get a saor view satellite or box?

watty

Irish Digital TV = Saorview = (Irish DTT Compatible TV or Irish DTT Compatible Set-box ) + UHF Aerial http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/

UK Television = Freesat = ("Freesat HD" Compatible TV or "Freesat HD" Set-box ) + Dish + LNBF http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/freesat

HappyHarry

senordingdong wrote: »

So Watty. what do you recommend?

If I think I understand you correctly, then a new tv would change nothing.
I might aswell get a saor view satellite or box?

I think he is just saying that you don't need to have VHF on any new TV you choose. This increases your options a bit. Sometimes UK models of TV are better spec'd and cheaper than the Irish specific models that have a VHF tuner.

As an example some Panasonic TVs have FreeSat built into the UK Models, Irish Specific models don't have it.

Just make sure whatever model you get is SaorView compatible or at least FreeView HD certified (the HD part is REQUIRED not optional).

Sam Russell

HappyHarry wrote: »

Just make sure whatever model you get is SaorView compatible or at least FreeView HD certified (the HD part is REQUIRED not optional).

So is VHF required, not optional. It is possible, though unlikely, that RTE NL might use VHF for Saorview. It is in the spec.

watty

I'd risk missing the VHF but not MHEG5 in a location with UHF DTT already.

Yes VHF is in the spec, so you need it to get a TV certified. But HD, MPEG4 AVC H.264, HE-AAC, MHEG5 etc are definately being used.

In the unlikely event that VHF is used it will be somewhere not on this list
http://www.techtir.ie/tv-radio/Irish-DTT-Sites
Which puts it in the 5% of people category.

VHF could in theory be used for PayTV. But if there is ever payTV that would likely use DVB-T2 and CAM. So new box anyway. probably subsidized. But pay TV on DTT is not very likely and if it did launch, likely to go bust.

Of all the aspects of Saorview Spec, VHF is the one I would least be concerned. It's going to be no use for MMDS/Cable as that will be all UPC digital boxes. No analogue soon.

HappyHarry

Sam Russell wrote: »

So is VHF required, not optional. It is possible, though unlikely, that RTE NL might use VHF for Saorview. It is in the spec.

Touché!

I wasn't aware that it was in the spec, and have never seen mention of it on the forum. Everything I read talked about UHF.

Aren't all of the DTT transmissions on UHF at present? If they were going to use VHF surely they would be including VHF in the tests too?

Are the manufacturers going to have to add VHF tuners to all of their FrewView HD gear to get a SaorView logo?

Sounds like a racket to me, I'll be on to Joe Duffy in the morning!

The Cush

HappyHarry wrote: »

I wasn't aware that it was in the spec, and have never seen mention of it on the forum. Everything I read talked about UHF.

Aren't all of the DTT transmissions on UHF at present? If they were going to use VHF surely they would be including VHF in the tests too?

Are the manufacturers going to have to add VHF tuners to all of their FrewView HD gear to get a SaorView logo?

VHF in relation to DTT has been discussed here in various threads over the years. There were DTT VHF tests from 3 Rock in the late 90's but none in recent years.

Any manufacturer producing freeview-HD (i.e. DVB-T2) products will I guess be aware that Sweden, Finland and Italy will be using the VHF band for DVB-T2 DTT and will be including VHF tuners by default for these countries.

senordingdong

So basically, my previous encounter with a panasonic tv was just a lucky coincidence?

STB

HappyHarry wrote: »

Touché!

I wasn't aware that it was in the spec, and have never seen mention of it on the forum. Everything I read talked about UHF.

Aren't all of the DTT transmissions on UHF at present? If they were going to use VHF surely they would be including VHF in the tests too?

Are the manufacturers going to have to add VHF tuners to all of their FrewView HD gear to get a SaorView logo?

Sounds like a racket to me, I'll be on to Joe Duffy in the morning!

VHF will not be used for DTT.

And even UHF usage will be curtialed to channels below 60. And that number is likely to go even lower.

STB

senordingdong wrote: »

So basically, my previous encounter with a panasonic tv was just a lucky coincidence?

VHF. Most TVs no longer come with VHF.

You are using VHF for analogue cable. Not the same as what these guys are talking about.

If you want something with a VHF tuner, use an old video recorder. Do not buy a TV on the basis of it having a VHF tuner. It will be useless in the next 2 years. Even cable companies now supply boxes rather than use/depend on analogue VHF.

Antenna

STB wrote: »

VHF. Most TVs no longer come with VHF.

TVs for sale in the Rep. of Ireland?

Its news to me

watty wrote: »

Why?
It rubbish quality and costs more than Digital for less channels.

A lot of cable subscribers are still using it on extra TVs in bedrooms etc.

Viewers might as well have analogue (as long as its still there) available on the primary TV even with a digital cable STB as it could be a useful backup if the STB fails (its not as if STBs never go faulty).

STB wrote: »

VHF will not be used for DTT.

It could possibly be used in the future on small (non-UPC) cable TV networks which are currently analogue only.

fat-tony

There are plenty of analogue cable services on VHF (UPC) in Dublin. Playing devil's advocate for the moment - why would UPC switch off analogue services in particular areas where they are generating an income stream without further investment in cabling? Rubbish quality aside, there are considerable numbers of people who receive TV by this method and may not want the complexity or otherwise of a set-top box (either UPC digital or DTT via aerial). Have UPC definitely announced the end of provision of analogue signals? Their website still sells it as a package. I assume there is no requirement for UPC to vacate VHF analogue spectrum as they are not technically transmitting, but rather distributing signal which has been received at their head-end and transposed or re-coded (in the case of SKY1 etc.) to VHF analogue.

In the old days

fat-tony wrote: »

There are plenty of analogue cable services on VHF (UPC) in Dublin. Playing devil's advocate for the moment - why would UPC switch off analogue services in particular areas where they are generating an income stream without further investment in cabling? Rubbish quality aside, there are considerable numbers of people who receive TV by this method and may not want the complexity or otherwise of a set-top box (either UPC digital or DTT via aerial). Have UPC definitely announced the end of provision of analogue signals? Their website still sells it as a package. I assume there is no requirement for UPC to vacate VHF analogue spectrum as they are not technically transmitting, but rather distributing signal which has been received at their head-end and transposed or re-coded (in the case of SKY1 etc.) to VHF analogue.

Good post. I can't see UPC rushing to cut off VHF any time soon. A lot of people simply want a reasonable choice of the most popular channels easily redistributed. It's a big advantage over SKY for multi-room viewing. Average punter happy with low/no cost plus average pic. quality.

HappyHarry

In the old days wrote: »

Good post. I can't see UPC rushing to cut off VHF any time soon.

Seems like a reasonable view, but we have had serious thread drift here. This thread was about a guy buying a new TV and thus his likely requirements, he specifically stated that he didn't want NTL (or Sky so presumably doesn't want to pay a sub).

Not the same things as people with existing TVs and an old analogue subscription service. As already pointed out the analogue service is now more expensive than digital and it looks like the UPC want it to die off without loosing too many customers.

Getting back on topic I don't think whether a TV has a VHF tuner or not should factor into his decisions to buy at all for reasons previously stated, let's not muddy the issue. Depending on his location SaorView, FreeSat, FreeView HD or SaorSat are what he'll be likely to use.

watty

fat-tony wrote: »

I assume there is no requirement for UPC to vacate VHF analogue spectrum as they are not technically transmitting, but rather distributing signal which has been received at their head-end and transposed or re-coded (in the case of SKY1 etc.) to VHF analogue.

Economics.
They want to offer more HD, VOD, BB.
One Analogue channel is maybe close to 40Mbps to 50Bps of Modem downstream, or DVB-c (both use 256 QAM on cable typically so more data than 8MHz of DVB-T).
So 15 Analogue channels is over 650Mbps of data. The spectrum will not be vacated but used differently. The Band I VHF has been vanishing area by area as they add Broadband as that band is part of the Broadband upstream/upload (5MHz to 65MHz for EuroDOCSIS). There is no Band I VHF at all in Broadband enabled areas.

120Mbps DOCSIS 3.0 uses multiple 8MHz channels bonded. UPC can do analogue as long as they want. But all their current Digital boxes and Modems work 110MHz to 862Mhz at least. In the Medium term they are not going to waste the space. Their big selling point over Sky is no longer rubbish quality multiroom Analogue (which many people stealing) but Broadband and phone services.

Analogue on UPC is doomed. But they will still use VHF and Hyperband for Digtal TV (SD, HD and Switched Video) and DOCSIS (Broadband and VOD).

In the old days

HappyHarry wrote: »

Seems like a reasonable view, but we have had serious thread drift here. This thread was about a guy buying a new TV and thus his likely requirements, he specifically stated that he didn't want NTL (or Sky so presumably doesn't want to pay a sub).

Not the same things as people with existing TVs and an old analogue subscription service. As already pointed out the analogue service is now more expensive than digital and it looks like the UPC want it to die off without loosing too many customers.

Getting back on topic I don't think whether a TV has a VHF tuner or not should factor into his decisions to buy at all for reasons previously stated, let's not muddy the issue. Depending on his location SaorView, FreeSat, FreeView HD or SaorSat are what he'll be likely to use.

Agreed VHF not needed in the future. A UHF analogue tuner could be useful in case the OP wanted magic eye use in another location, cctv etc. Not sure if saorview specifies a UHF analogue tuner???

STB

In the old days wrote: »

Not sure if saorview specifies a UHF analogue tuner???

DSO doesnt happen overnight. Digital tuners are released on the market to encourage away from Analogue and existing sets.

fat-tony

watty wrote: »

Economics.



Analogue on UPC is doomed. But they will still use VHF and Hyperband for Digtal TV (SD, HD and Switched Video) and DOCSIS (Broadband and VOD).

I agree with you watty that UPC will want to use their newer infrastructure incl. fibre on value-added services. However, there is a lot of legacy cabling around particular housing estates in Dublin and Wicklow certainly which would need to be upgraded to carry the newer services. In those areas there has been a steady drift to satellite so there may be no economic way of providing the improved infrastructure as the potential market for digital TV has migrated to SKY or FTA sat in these areas. The "killer app" for UPC, in my mind, is broadband. If my area had a suitable cable BB infrastructure I would ditch my ADSL and landline connection like a shot. I get all the TV I need for free.

watty

They have phased plan to upgrade all areas to Broadband. They have even put cable back areas that had lost cable and gone to MMDS (e.g. Edward St toward Punches Cross in Limerick).

There is a map for Greater Dublin someplace on their site showing the upgrades. There really really is no future to Analogue Cable. It's also insecure and thus encourages damage of people tapping in. A high proportion of Analogue viewers are stealing service.