Wikileaks and Extraordinary Rendition

cornbb

Apologies if I missed this, but I'm somewhat surprised that this isn't in the news...

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2007/12/07DUBLIN916.html

Extraordinary Renditions

---

¶2. (C) Ambassador Foley thanked Ahern for his staunch
rejection of the Irish Human Rights Commission's (IHRC)
demand that the Irish Government inspect aircraft landing in
Ireland that are alleged to have been involved in so-called
extraordinary rendition flights (Ref . Ahern declared that
the IHRC report contained no new information, but warned that
opposition parties Fine Gael and Labour could be expected to
continue to raise the issue from time to time in efforts to
politically embarrass the Fianna Fail-run Government. Ahern
said that several alleged rendition flights had been
inspected during the past year and fully cleared; the last
flight, he wryly noted, was carrying six touring golfers.
Ahern said that a public response by the Embassy would not be
useful, but suggested that the Ambassador personally engage
Fine Gael leadership to explain the U.S. position.

¶3. (C) Ahern noted that he had "put his neck on the chopping
block" and would pay a severe political price if it ever
turned out that rendition flights had entered Ireland or if
one was discovered in the future. He stated that he "could
use a little more information" about the flights, musing that
it might not be a bad idea to allow the random inspection of
a few planes to proceed, which would provide cover if a
rendition flight ever surfaced. He seemed quite convinced
that at least three flights involving renditions had refueled
at Shannon Airport before or after conducting renditions
elsewhere.

¶4. (C) Comment: While Ahern's public stance on
extraordinary renditions is rock-solid, his musings during
the meeting seemed less assured. This was the only issue
during the meeting that agitated him; he spent considerable
time dwelling on it. Ahern seemed to be fishing for renewed
assurances from the Ambassador that no rendition flights have
transited Ireland, or would transit in the future.
Highlighting the recent attention drawn to renditions by the
IHRC report, later the same day the Parliamentary Foreign
Affairs Committee held a hearing on the matter. The hearing,
attended by POLOFFs, generally confirmed the Government's
view that there is no evidence that rendition flights have
transited Ireland. The hearing, which was barely reported by
the press, failed to achieve any traction for critics of
American policy. End comment.

I find this truly extraordinary. Aherne clearly has no concerns over whether renditions are/were actually taking place through Shannon, only what the political consequences would be for him if it was ever revealed/proved that they were.

What disgusting, selfish, amoral people we have as our leaders.

Spacedog

thread in AH about this...

Ahern said that several alleged rendition flights had been
inspected during the past year and fully cleared; the last
flight, he wryly noted, was carrying six touring golfers.

I've found this comment bizarre. He was suggesting that of the few seraches made of military aircraft passing through Shannon suspected of carrying weapons or renditioned prisoners, the Garda, army, airport security or whoever, boarded an aircraft, and found Paraic Harrington, Tiger Woods, and half the PGA leader board sitting there drinking scotch and playing cards! 'oh, sorry to disturb you, can I have your autograph?' - bollocks!

sounds more like they found 6 guys in jump suits with bags over their heads, and were 'corrected' when they reported it up the chain. *wink wink*

cornbb

Ah, missed the AH thread. Thanks.

Spacedog

Strange how RTE havn't picked it up yet.

edit:

oh wait:

nevermind

oppenheimer1

Does this really matter and does anyone really care? Why is Irish neutrality such a sacred concept, we were never really a true neutral country. We were only ever neutral to the side that was the greatest threat to us.

If you read what was written it isn't half as damaging as it might seem. There were no rendition flights through Shannon that there was any evidence of and he thought he would have to resign if the USA was lying. He believed that there could have been 3 such flights through Shannon but there was no evidence, but decided to take the word of the USG that there was none.

cornbb

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Does this really matter and does anyone really care? Why is Irish neutrality such a sacred concept, we were never really a true neutral country. We were only ever neutral to the side that was the greatest threat to us.

If you read what was written it isn't half as damaging as it might seem. There were no rendition flights through Shannon that there was any evidence of and he thought he would have to resign if the USA was lying. He believed that there could have been 3 such flights through Shannon but there was no evidence, but decided to take the word of the USG that there was none.

Neutrality is only a part of the issue. More importantly, its an issue of morality. Its about whether Ireland should play any part in these extra-judicial kidnappings. I don't think we should accommodate such a process even if we were in NATO.

What is written is damaging to the credibility of our Minister for Justice in these extreme. He only showed interest in covering his ass, despite personally believing that these renditions were taking place. He displayed no interest in seriously investigating this; he only wanted to be seen to be doing something: "it might not be a bad idea to allow the random inspection of
a few planes to proceed, which would provide cover if a
rendition flight ever surfaced"

Manic Moran

Almost seems like Paras (2) and (1) are out of sequence. The first one states that some aircraft had been inspected (which, in truth, I wasn't aware of), the second paragraph uses a more future tense.

You may also be reading a little too much into it:

He only showed interest in covering his ass, despite personally believing that these renditions were taking place

As long as the renditions were not taking place through Ireland, then quite reasonably the only thing he should be concerned about is perception. Note that nowhere in the cable does it state that Ahern believed that detainees were being renditioned (is that the word?) through Shannon, or that the American diplomat gives any indication of it. The most Ahern had stated was a personal opinion on the activities of an aircraft outside of Irish jurisdiction.

It seems to me that he acted correctly. You don't want government officials working on the basis of personal opinion without some form of evidence. The Foreign Affairs Committee had reviewed the situation, concluded there was no evidence, and so officially, that's the end of that.

NTM

cornbb

Manic Moran wrote: »

As long as the renditions were not taking place through Ireland, then quite reasonably the only thing he should be concerned about is perception.

The point is that we don't really know whether or not the renditions were passing through here, and the Minister showed no interest in seriously finding out what was going on aside from conducting a few token searches in order to provide insurance for himself in case information ever came out.

Note that nowhere in the cable does it state that Ahern believed that detainees were being renditioned (is that the word?) through Shannon, or that the American diplomat gives any indication of it.

He says he believes that flights directly involved in rendition, e.g. on their way to and from those missions, were landing in Shannon. Just because detainees weren't on the planes doesn't mean that Irish involvement in such missions aren't a matter of huge concern.

The most Ahern had stated was a personal opinion on the activities of an aircraft outside of Irish jurisdiction.

It seems to me that he acted correctly. You don't want government officials working on the basis of personal opinion without some form of evidence. The Foreign Affairs Committee had reviewed the situation, concluded there was no evidence, and so officially, that's the end of that.

If such missions are landing in Ireland, then it becomes Ireland's business. The if the minister still has personal concerns that this is going on in Ireland, then it's not really sufficient to turn a blind eye, regardless of what a committee says.

I'm curious about this:

He seemed quite convinced that at least three flights involving renditions had refueled at Shannon Airport before or after conducting renditions elsewhere.

Firstly, what caused the minister's suspicion? Secondly, why is the suspicion detailed enough that it focuses on flights on their way to/from picking up prisoners rather than actually carrying prisoners?

Manic Moran

cornbb wrote: »

The point is that we don't really know whether or not the renditions were passing through here, and the Minister showed no interest in seriously finding out what was going on aside from conducting a few token searches in order to provide insurance for himself in case information ever came out.

And how would you have proposed that he find out? Even if he put every single aircraft and passenger through passport control to verify identity and destination, I'm sure the CIA could easily drum up some fake passports, despite the fact that it's fairly routine that if you're only passing through a jurisdiction that you don't have to go through passport control.

If such missions are landing in Ireland, then it becomes Ireland's business. The if the minister still has personal concerns that this is going on in Ireland, then it's not really sufficient to turn a blind eye, regardless of what a committee says.

Why not?

If The Jackal, suspected international assassin, was vacationing in Ireland after getting off the ferry in Rosslare, but was otherwise completely and totally law-abiding whilst within the country, are the Gardai allowed to randomly pull him over and harrass him? Even if they suspected he was going to get onto the Sea Cat in Dun Laoighre the next day to kill the Governor of the Bank of England?

Firstly, what caused the minister's suspicion? Secondly, why is the suspicion detailed enough that it focuses on flights on their way to/from picking up prisoners rather than actually carrying prisoners?

Maybe he reads Boards? There are plenty of people on Boards who have come to personal conclusions on the matter without seeing anything official one way or the other.

NTM

Mr.Micro

The only way to find out is by a wikileaks type leak. The Irish state would jump through hoops to please the US...so with regard to evidence and 6 golfers dressed in orange suits with bags over their heads the Irish State would see nothing because they were not looking for evidence. Another black mark of shame against us and our owned democracy.

colc1

cornbb wrote: »

Apologies if I missed this, but I'm somewhat surprised that this isn't in the news...

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2007/12/07DUBLIN916.html



I find this truly extraordinary. Aherne clearly has no concerns over whether renditions are/were actually taking place through Shannon, only what the political consequences would be for him if it was ever revealed/proved that they were.

What disgusting, selfish, amoral people we have as our leaders.

Why was it three he had in his head a number he just plucked out of the sky? That would suggest he knew something... I dont know either way if these went thru Ireland but it wouldbnt surprise me and it would be shameful for the country if this was happening how would ppl feel if Irish citizens were being sent abroad to be waterboarded and the like...you'd admit to anything if that was being done to you and it makes me sick W is still justifying it how could you possibly trust any info got in this way...

Spacedog

Indeed, these leaks are not a smoking gun, but really show the nature of how people in power behave behind closed doors.

In this case the active coverup/ignoring of suspected human rights abuses in our juristiction. He know his position and reputation was at risk.

I'm intrested to see what the office of foreign affairs and Fine Gael, have to say about this as they have been asked to comment. I suspect thay will say nothing, and hope it blows over, FG are in favour of keeping this quiet as much as FF, I never heard a FG minister pressing this issue.

I don't understand how any Irish people can buy into this torture rendition idea. Fair enough the US after 9-11 went a little nuts. but we are not helping the US's deminished moral authority by not openly challanging Abu Garaib abuses and by giving the green light to the rendition program.

"You are either with us or against us"
-G. W. Bush - regarding the War on Terror

I want the old America back.

Mr.Micro

Spacedog wrote: »

Indeed, these leaks are not a smoking gun, but really show the nature of how people in power behave behind closed doors.

In this case the active coverup/ignoring of suspected human rights abuses in our juristiction. He know his position and reputation was at risk.

I'm intrested to see what the office of foreign affairs and Fine Gael, have to say about this as they have been asked to comment. I suspect thay will say nothing, and hope it blows over, FG are in favour of keeping this quiet as much as FF, I never heard a FG minister pressing this issue.

I don't understand how any Irish people can buy into this torture rendition idea. Fair enough the US after 9-11 went a little nuts. but we are not helping the US's deminished moral authority by not openly challanging Abu Garaib abuses and by giving the green light to the rendition program.

"You are either with us or against us"
-G. W. Bush - regarding the War on Terror

I want the old America back.

Ahern et al and all those retiring can do so on their fat pensions with a clear conscience after doing their bit for Uncle Sam and the phony war on terror. Of course the rendition flights meant terror for some someone else so that is ok as far as the politicians are concerned.....

Mahatma coat

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why not?

If The Jackal, suspected international assassin, was vacationing in Ireland after getting off the ferry in Rosslare, but was otherwise completely and totally law-abiding whilst within the country, are the Gardai allowed to randomly pull him over and harrass him? Even if they suspected he was going to get onto the Sea Cat in Dun Laoighre the next day to kill the Governor of the Bank of England?

NTM

Until he breaks any Irish laws then the Gardai would have no Legal reason to Detain or 'Harass' him.

So you support a Police state??? where innocence and Guilt are determined by wheter or not the Garda thinks you might be a bit Suspicihious

cornbb

Manic Moran wrote: »

And how would you have proposed that he find out? Even if he put every single aircraft and passenger through passport control to verify identity and destination, I'm sure the CIA could easily drum up some fake passports, despite the fact that it's fairly routine that if you're only passing through a jurisdiction that you don't have to go through passport control.

Given his suspicions, he should put in place a serious regime of inspections, not just a couple of token inspections so that he is being seen to do something. I presume that the Irish gov/Shannon airport know which places are US gov/military flights, as opposed to passenger/commercial flights. It wouldn't be impossible to search them all, far from it.

And if the government has strong suspicions that immoral missions are taking advantage of Irish facilities and has no way of verifying it, then they should seriously consider not allowing such planes to land here. But of course they won't, they are willing to either turn a blind eye or look the other way for the sake of the local economy.

If The Jackal, suspected international assassin, was vacationing in Ireland after getting off the ferry in Rosslare, but was otherwise completely and totally law-abiding whilst within the country, are the Gardai allowed to randomly pull him over and harrass him? Even if they suspected he was going to get onto the Sea Cat in Dun Laoighre the next day to kill the Governor of the Bank of England?

Well if he was a suspected assassin, it wouldn't exactly be random harassment, would it? I would think that the Gardai would have a very real justification to detain and question someone they suspect is going to do this. Are you saying that there are no legal mechanisms in place to allow this?

Maybe he reads Boards? There are plenty of people on Boards who have come to personal conclusions on the matter without seeing anything official one way or the other.

NTM

The difference between the Minister for Justice and some random keyboard warrior is that the minister has a very serious responsibility to investigate such suspicions. And as someone else pointed out, the level of detail in his "suspicions" (e.g. number of flights) indicates that he has access to information that is not available to the rest of us.

OS119

cornbb wrote: »

The difference between the Minister for Justice and some random keyboard warrior is that the minister has a very serious responsibility to investigate such suspicions. And as someone else pointed out, the level of detail in his "suspicions" (e.g. number of flights) indicates that he has access to information that is not available to the rest of us.

you have a point, but the reverse of that is that the Irish Government can't just get the Gardai to inspect every US Government flight (or indeed 'private' fight that every man and and his dog knows is actually a US Government fight) without damaging its relations with one of the countries it aims to stay on the closest and friendliest possible terms with.

if Ireland really cares about this issue then fine, go to bat and search every flight - but that will have consequences for Irelands political and economic relationship with the worlds only political, economic and military superpower, and a country that isn't afraid to show its displeasure.

Ireland is not the only country in this position - lots of others have decided that jobs, US FDI, and some influence with the US is more important than the rights and wrongs of the US shipping some poor bastard off to wherethefcukistan to have his balls cut off.

its sad, but not being the big boy on the block mean that compromises are the rule of thumb - and history shows that the electorate rarely thank governments who cause redundancies on a humanitarian principle.

Spacedog

OS119 wrote: »

...history shows that the electorate rarely thank governments who cause redundancies on a humanitarian principle.

does it? examples please, of some unpopular humanitarian/job cutting actions taken by a government. So far as I know, no government has ever had the balls to do the right thing with regard to human rights at the cost of a few euro to the economy.

The deal in Shannon covers more than money for the airport, there are unspecified sweeteners/benifets recieved in exchange for the use of shannon. and FF and FG clam right up when they are ever questioned on it.

Extending your logic, surely it would improve the economy of Shannon Airport to open a Gitmo european franchise beside the airfield itself, where they can do whatever they like to prisoners, no questions asked. After all according to you: If it improves jobs and economy, the irish electorate are perfectly happy to hook the electrodes themselves.

I for don't agree with this cynical sentiment. but please be so kind as to share some historical examples.

Manic Moran

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Until he breaks any Irish laws then the Gardai would have no Legal reason to Detain or 'Harass' him.

So you support a Police state??? where innocence and Guilt are determined by wheter or not the Garda thinks you might be a bit Suspicihious

That's precisely my point. Replace 'Garda' with 'Minister', and 'The Jackal's Car' with 'US-owned Learjet' and see where we end up.

And if the government has strong suspicions that immoral missions are taking advantage of Irish facilities and has no way of verifying it, then they should seriously consider not allowing such planes to land here. But of course they won't, they are willing to either turn a blind eye or look the other way for the sake of the local economy.

Or maybe they are treating all aircraft which pass through the airport equally and in an even-handed manner regardless of flag pursuant to the way things have been done for the previous half-century or more.

Well if he was a suspected assassin, it wouldn't exactly be random harassment, would it? I would think that the Gardai would have a very real justification to detain and question someone they suspect is going to do this.

As Mahatma points out, there are some legal hurdles to be overcome. I'll bet the Gardai know half the local drug and gang leaders in Ireland by name and address, beyond the level of 'suspicion', but absent evidence, they can't do anything about it.

NTM

cornbb

Manic Moran wrote: »

Or maybe they are treating all aircraft which pass through the airport equally and in an even-handed manner regardless of flag pursuant to the way things have been done for the previous half-century or more.

If one particular type of flight going through the airport is known/suspected to be carrying out illegal/immoral activities elsewhere, then that's a very good reason to treat them differently from all the Ryanair/Aer Lingus/DHL/charter flights etc.

And all flags have NOT been treated equally in Shannon airport in the past. Look at the fact that the Irish government searched all Soviet military aircraft passing through Shannon in the Cold War era. Why should US military/CIA flights be treated differently today?

As Mahatma points out, there are some legal hurdles to be overcome. I'll bet the Gardai know half the local drug and gang leaders in Ireland by name and address, beyond the level of 'suspicion', but absent evidence, they can't do anything about it.

But I bet the Gardai will make an attempt to gather evidence on those people, right? The difference here is that the Irish gov isn't making that attempt, aside from token efforts to provide insurance for the Minister's reputation. They are effectively turning a blind eye despite their suspicions that something is up.

Spacedog

So, we have established that the Irish government are turning a blind eye on rendition flights through Ireland. What now? The Office of Foreign Affairs don't answer letters or press requests for statements on this issue of Shannon, the news don't report it, the opposition ignore it just the same.

Shannon is one of Irish Politics' elephant in the room issues. everyone knows exactly whats going on but does nothing about it.

It underlines too many problems with the country,
-The Gardai not doing their job on government orders
-Conspiracy of a government official to mislead the public
-Irelands true values on human rights issues vs economic benifets

These are not comfortable questions to answer, but should be confronted, if not now, when?

If Ireland is to become a military, arms and prisoner shipping hub for the worlds superpowers, it should be properly legislated, ratified and have enforcable rules. The time for slimey under the table deals is over. If we let this slide, Ireland is finished.