Conflicting advice from vets

anamaria

I recently brought my 5 month old Westie X to the vet for her shots (I had just got her from a local shelter) and asked at what age I should get her spayed. The vet said that I should bring her in at six months but the following week when I brought her in for her second shot the vet I was with that time told me it would be better to wait until she has her first heat, around nine months before spaying.

Now I'm a bit of a newbie at all this and I really don't know what to do. Shs is six months now and I don't know which is the best thing to do. Any advice or experiences?

lrushe

It's a bit of a grey area unfortunately. The six month age came from America and was used basically to ensure dogs were done before breeding age to stop unwanted litters. Others believe (myself included) that there is merit in letting a dog mature before spaying if you can keep them secure and not allow any accidental pregnancies.
It really is a personally choice, I would do alot of research into the pro's and con's of spaying at six months and weigh them up against your personal circumstances before making a decision.

Toulouse

It is down to the owner really but I think that unless you can guarantee 100% that she won't come in contact with a male while in heat then it's best to have her done at 6 months as there's more than enough dogs in Ireland.

Don't underestimate the ability of dogs in heat to find themselves a mate.

Shelters usually have some guidelines for when a dog they have adopted out must be neutered, was there any from the shelter you got her from? The one I volunteer for insists all pups be neutered at 6 months and proof provided.

summer_ina_bowl

Having your dog spayed before their first heat drastically reduces their chance of developing mammary tumours (the most common cancer in female dogs) later in life. Generally the modern view is that they should be done before their first heat, previously some vets thought that letting them have a heat first would reduce the chance of them developing incontinence but studies on the matter have been inconclusive.

I like or think that if you have the pet spayed/castrated before their reproductive systems are mature, they'll never miss the feelings associated with sexual hormone production as they'll not have experienced them.

Also, from a surgical point of view, the smaller and less mature the sexual organs are, the smaller the blood supply to them, generally making for a less complicated surgery - having said that, vets are trained well enough that this isn't much of an issue - just remember, in the case of females, it is much safer to have them neutered while they are neither in heat or pregnant as in both of these cases the blood supply to the womb becomes massive and the risk of post-op bleeding is hugely increased.

Lastly, if you do decide to let her have a heat first - be prepared for visitors - and possibly lots of them, it's not unheard of for male dogs to travel miles, scale 7/8 foot high fences and even jump THROUGH windows to get to a female in season! Unfortunately, even though you may be very good to keep her confined, you can't count on owners of entire males to do the same. Also, be aware that if she's indoors during her confinement, you may well end up with little patches of blood (her spotting) on your floor and furniture!

lrushe

Advantages of Early Spaying:
Reduces the risk of Mammary Cancer (though 50% are malignant).
Prevents Pregnancy.
Prevents Pyometra.
Reduces the small risk of Uterine, Overian and Cervical Cancer (less than 0.5%).

Disadvantages of Early Spaying:
Increases the risk of Female Incontinence (4-20%).
Increase the risk of in Vascular Tumours (5%).
Signifiicantly increases the risk of Bone Cancer, a cancer with poor prognosis.
Possible Endocrine Disorders in later life.
Increase in Orthopedic Disorders.

Early spaying is one of the most argued topics in veterinary medicine. It is recommended by vets because so many pet owners can't be trusted to prevent unplanned pregnancies, however very few discuss the many disadvantages of the procedure.
Far be for me to tell the OP what to do, it is always an individual decision, I would just like to see more balanced information given to pet owners so they can make an informed decision, I don't think it's fair that the side effects are rarely discussed.

toadfly

lrushe wrote: »

Disadvantages of Early Spaying:
Increases the risk of Female Incontinence (4-20%).
Increase the risk of in Vascular Tumours (5%).
Signifiicantly increases the risk of Bone Cancer, a cancer with poor prognosis.
Possible Endocrine Disorders in later life.
Increase in Orthopedic Disorders.

I didnt know any of that, thanks lrushe. We got Tilly done at 18 months and Ozzie at 5 years (2 months after we got him).

anamaria

Thanks everyone.

It's really hard to know the best thing to do really. As someone said I suppose it's a personal choice. There seem to be so many pro's and con's to either option!

summer_ina_bowl

Not directly relating to the OP, but can I just point out that "early spaying" isn't quite the same as spaying before the first heat! Early neutering (also known a pediatric or juvenile neutering) is when a puppy or kitten is neutered between 4 (though usually 8) and 16 weeks.

Although it is supported by many international organisations, it's not common in Ireland, in fact I'm not aware of any vets here who do it!

I think the origional basis behind it was that many vets realised that sadly for alot of people their interest in their pets peaked while they were still pups/kittens and so the best chance of getting the owner to neuter the pet at all was at a young age. I suppose that the reason the concept is supported despite the side effects is that the pro's still outweigh the cons.

Discodog

Neutering is one of those topics where Veterinary opinion has become a bit polarised by the pressure to have a consistent policy. The priority is seen as avoiding unwanted births which is very worthy. For the vast majority of dog owners the advice to neuter at six months is sound.

There are some very responsible owners who take an interest in veterinary matters & can be pretty certain than their dogs will never produce unwanted pups. So they base their decision on, when or if to neuter, on their interpretation of the evidence.

You cannot expect a Vet to be able to assess you as an owner. They have to treat everyone the same so they will advise early neutering.

dvet

lrushe wrote: »

Advantages of Early Spaying:
Reduces the risk of Mammary Cancer (though 50% are malignant).
Prevents Pregnancy.
Prevents Pyometra.
Reduces the small risk of Uterine, Overian and Cervical Cancer (less than 0.5%).

Disadvantages of Early Spaying:
Increases the risk of Female Incontinence (4-20%).
Increase the risk of in Vascular Tumours (5%).
Signifiicantly increases the risk of Bone Cancer, a cancer with poor prognosis.
Possible Endocrine Disorders in later life.
Increase in Orthopedic Disorders.

....Far be for me to tell the OP what to do, it is always an individual decision, I would just like to see more balanced information given to pet owners so they can make an informed decision, I don't think it's fair that the side effects are rarely discussed.

Hi lrushe, I have the same stats as you, and they are from a reliable source, but I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of these points relate to spaying done before 4 months (the incontinence issue in particular).
the side effects mentioned are a lot less likely when spaying at 6 months, plus you get to avoid the risks associated with waiting until after a first heat.

While I agree that it would be nice to be able to have a proper discussion about it with every owner, not every owner is as knowledgable (or frankly, interested) as most of the people who come on here!

I think the reasons why most vets don't give all the pluses and minuses routinely has a few reasons: Firstly, because it would be a long conversation when they often have relatively little time to spend on a consult... and for 1st time puppy owners, they also have to give alot more advice - vaccinations, worming, microchipping, insurance, feeding etc - so it's a lot to get through in a little amount of time, and also, a lot for owners to try to take in!. Also, because as I mentioned, a lot of the disavantages are comparatively rare at 6 months, while the benefits are lifelong. And finally, because they would probably be worried about scaring people off when it is really a relatively safe, and such a worthwhile, procedure.

In the end, all vets can do is to recommend what works best for the majority, and the 6 month rule is the best choice for the majority of owners. Personally, I know all the good and bad points, and I would choose to spay/neuter at 6 months, but I respect different opinions on the topic.

And to the OP - As for the difference between the vets' opinions, this is probably because they are different ages/went to different colleges and were taught differently. In recent years, the teaching has been that 6 months is best, but older vets may have different opinions.

Really though, spaying at any age is better than not spaying at all!

Cherry Blossom

I had origionally planned to have my Westie spayed at around 10 months but she went into heat at 18weeks as a symptom of a hormone imbalance so I brought it forward and had her done a day short of 6 months. In hindsight I think this was the best time to have her done regardless of any other factors. She recovered very well, very quickly and I put some of this down to the fact that she is still growing. In future I think I would still wait a little bit longer with larger breeds but small breeds mature very quickly anyway and I would do the same again with another small bitch without having to give it any consideration at all.

lrushe

dvet wrote: »

Hi lrushe, I have the same stats as you, and they are from a reliable source, but I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of these points relate to spaying done before 4 months (the incontinence issue in particular).

It's been shown that dogs' growth plates require the sex hormones released during adolesence in order to close, growth plates don't completely close until between 12 - 24 months (depending on the breed). Without the presents of these hormones a dogs bones will continue to grow for longer than normal resulting in a taller, more out of portion dog than the dog should have been genetically. In turn this can lead to orthopedic problems in later life, indeed it has even been link to hip and elbow dysplasia. The is the case even if s/neutering is done between 6-12 months and not just before 6 months, that's just one example of the effects sex hormones have on a dogs growing body.

dvet wrote: »

I think the reasons why most vets don't give all the pluses and minuses routinely has a few reasons: Firstly, because it would be a long conversation when they often have relatively little time to spend on a consult... and for 1st time puppy owners, they also have to give alot more advice - vaccinations, worming, microchipping, insurance, feeding etc - so it's a lot to get through in a little amount of time, and also, a lot for owners to try to take in!. Also, because as I mentioned, a lot of the disavantages are comparatively rare at 6 months, while the benefits are lifelong. And finally, because they would probably be worried about scaring people off when it is really a relatively safe, and such a worthwhile, procedure.

I agree it's alot for vets to discuss with pet owners and likewise alot for new pet owners to take in however I don't think that is a good enough reason not to give people appropriate, unbiased advice, how else will can people learn.
We really don't know how common or rare the disadvantages to early s/neutering are as the long term effects are really only being researched in detail now.

dvet wrote: »

In the end, all vets can do is to recommend what works best for the majority, and the 6 month rule is the best choice for the majority of owners. Personally, I know all the good and bad points, and I would choose to spay/neuter at 6 months, but I respect different opinions on the topic.

Early s/neutering maybe best for the majority of owners but I suppose I'm more interested in what's best for my dogs hence the reasons I looked into it further and found so much things I didn't know and it was enough for me not to be convinced it is the best route to take.

Like I've said I'm not here to tell you that my views are right for everyone, it's up to each owner to weigh up the pro's and con's and for me when I did this the con's just didn't sit well with me.

dvet

lrushe wrote: »

It's been shown that dogs' growth plates require the sex hormones released during adolesence in order to close.... that's just one example of the effects sex hormones have on a dogs growing body.


...I agree it's alot for vets to discuss with pet owners and likewise alot for new pet owners to take in however I don't think that is a good enough reason not to give people appropriate, unbiased advice, how else will can people learn....


...Early s/neutering maybe best for the majority of owners but ... it's up to each owner to weigh up the pro's and con's and for me when I did this the con's just didn't sit well with me.

Yes, I agree there are both advantages and disadvantages to spaying/neutering, but many of the complications are either not life threatening, or are very rare, so I think the benefits outweight the disadvantages. But as I said, if an owner knows all the facts and prefers to wait before spaying their dogs, I would respect that, too.

But what I was really trying to explain were the reasons why vets don't normally get into all of the advantages and disadvantages with every owner. I don't think they're trying to mislead owners or keep them in the dark at all - I would think (or hope) that most vets would be happy to explain it to any owner that actually asked about it. Have you had a different experience? (genuine question)

lrushe

dvet wrote: »

But what I was really trying to explain were the reasons why vets don't normally get into all of the advantages and disadvantages with every owner. I don't think they're trying to mislead owners or keep them in the dark at all - I would think (or hope) that most vets would be happy to explain it to any owner that actually asked about it. Have you had a different experience? (genuine question)

If a vet has the time to give the advantages of s/neutering then I think they have a duty of care to explore the disadvantages also, they exist and are relevant imo.
I haven't had a vet willfully withold information from me but I did have to fish for it, if I hadn't of asked the questions I wouldn't have got the information.

dvet

lrushe wrote: »

If a vet has the time to give the advantages of s/neutering then I think they have a duty of care to explore the disadvantages also, they exist and are relevant imo.
I haven't had a vet willfully withold information from me but I did have to fish for it, if I hadn't of asked the questions I wouldn't have got the information.

Well, I know that I would be happy to discuss it with any owner who asked me, and I certainly would hope that none of my clients felt like I was reluctant about it, or withholding information. I care about the wellbeing of my patients, and I wouldn't advise something that was not well researched and which I did not feel was in their best interests, even if I was in a hurry.

This, and all the other recent threads on the topic, has got me thinking about making up an info sheet on the whole subject that I can give to clients who are interested. With balanced, reliable information (i.e. pros AND cons), and maybe some good links as well. It seems it's a thing that a lot of people, on here anyway, want more info on. More vets seem to be doing things like this now, and I think it's great - educated owners are good owners!

lrushe

dvet wrote: »

Well, I know that I would be happy to discuss it with any owner who asked me, and I certainly would hope that none of my clients felt like I was reluctant about it, or withholding information. I care about the wellbeing of my patients, and I wouldn't advise something that was not well researched and which I did not feel was in their best interests, even if I was in a hurry.

This, and all the other recent threads on the topic, has got me thinking about making up an info sheet on the whole subject that I can give to clients who are interested. With balanced, reliable information (i.e. pros AND cons), and maybe some good links as well. It seems it's a thing that a lot of people, on here anyway, want more info on. More vets seem to be doing things like this now, and I think it's great - educated owners are good owners!

I didn't realise you were a vet, and there's me lecturing you on bone plate closure
I think a fact sheet with a quick synopsis of the pro's and con's would be a great idea and those who are interested could ask for more details. I would also include the responsiblities of any owners who do keep their dogs intact until maturity ie. the important of keeping them secure etc.

dvet

lrushe wrote: »

I didn't realise you were a vet, and there's me lecturing you on bone plate closure
I think a fact sheet with a quick synopsis of the pro's and con's would be a great idea and those who are interested could ask for more details. I would also include the responsiblities of any owners who do keep their dogs intact until maturity ie. the important of keeping them secure etc.

That's ok! That's a good idea about the responsibilities bit too... definitely important!

On a related note to all this spay/neuter talk, thought i'd attach a pic!!

Graces7

Hailing from Canada, we are well used to juvenile spaying as the optimum for many reasons.

The main with males being that if this is done very early, there is no "hormone memory" so no testosterone is ever released.

Sure, they can grow a little leggy.

Vets give different advice so shop around surely.

And no; we did not find a vet when we were in Donegal who had even heard of this.

Our wee dog had to wait and collie was 6 as she had never had any care of any kind in her abused life before we had her.

anamaria

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the replies. It is good to get a balanced view on this issue.

Dvet: I think an information sheet would be a fantastic idea. I know that I would have loved to have been given a sheet with all the pro's and cons laid out in a balanced way.

I am going to bring Charlie in to be spayed this week. She is six months now and I know there are a lot of dogs in my area so I cannot guarantee keeping her away from dogs when she comes into heat. So, all in all, it is probably the best option for me and my dog.

Graces7

anamaria wrote: »

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the replies. It is good to get a balanced view on this issue.

Dvet: I think an information sheet would be a fantastic idea. I know that I would have loved to have been given a sheet with all the pro's and cons laid out in a balanced way.

I am going to bring Charlie in to be spayed this week. She is six months now and I know there are a lot of dogs in my area so I cannot guarantee keeping her away from dogs when she comes into heat. So, all in all, it is probably the best option for me and my dog.

Wise choice; it is the dogs who do the seeking by the way. We have known them leap high fences and crash through closed windows to get at a bitch in heat.....