Lenihan, the New Governor of Irish Banks

The Raven.

Just when we thought things couldn't get much worse, Brian Lenihan has now awarded himself 'the most powerful positions in finance ever given to any Minister in any government in the history of the State'.

The Dáil has passed all stages of the Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Bill 2010, which gives wide powers to the Minister for Finance to reform and restructure the banking sector.

The Bill was passed this evening by 78 votes to 71. It now goes to the Seanad, where it will be debated on Friday.

The Opposition parties had objected to the proposal to pass all stages of the Bill by 10pm.
...
Mr Lenihan said the Bill gives the Minister for Finance power to appoint a manager to take over management of an institution.

He said the primary duty of all directors of all institutions will be to the Minister for Finance and not to the company.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1215/imf.html

The draconian powers are only intended to last until the end of 2012 but may be extended beyond then if the financial crisis continues, sources confirmed last night.

The powers can be applied to all banks that have used the state guarantee, including privately owned Bank of Ireland and Irish Life & Permanent, and also encompass credit unions.Under the new measures, the Government will be able to take control of so-called "credit institutions" without the approval of their own shareholders.

This rule is expected to be used over the coming weeks to plough another €4.5bn into AIB, effectively nationalising the institution before the end of the year. The new powers also allow the minister to move banks' deposits around the wider financial system.
...
The minister will be able to apply to the courts for a "direction order" that could force a state-supported bank to take certain actions, or prohibit the bank from doing something.

These orders could span anything from forcing banks to sell specific assets to removing bank directors and forcing banks to accept state cash.

The banks would be able to make arguments to the courts before the direction was granted, but crucially shareholders would have no power to veto the court orders.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/new-powers-give-minister-extensive-control-of-banks-2461141.html

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny had said it was “absolutely extraordinary that the Government would actually have the audacity” to expect a Bill with 77 sections to be passed in four hours. “This Bill will allocate to the Minister for Finance the most powerful positions in finance ever given to any Minister in any government in the history of the State.” He had called for the Dáil to sit on Tuesday to debate the Bill in detail.

Fine Gael finance spokesman Michael Noonan said the Bill allowed the Minister “to do anything he likes”. He also said “ am concerned about the role of the Governor of the Central Bank under this legislation. I would have expected resolution legislation to have conferred the special powers on the Governor of the Central Bank, rather than on the Minister.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1215/breaking60.html

I thought the new legislation was only to deal with the bank bonuses (which I have omitted from the quotes), but obviously Lenihan has seized the opportunity to grab as much power as possible over all the banks and financial institutions throughout the state. Undoubtedly he will dump all his Fianna Fail friends into managerial positions in these institutions before he leaves the government.

I don't know what other posters here think of this, but I have to say that I find it scary.

dcmraad

We are never getting rid of the idiots.

Next new law debated in 1 hour, no more elections.

mikemac

Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny had said it was “absolutely extraordinary that the Government would actually have the audacity” to expect a Bill with 77 sections to be passed in four hour

This sort of thing needs debate.
Now I know sometimes you need instant action and to force something through and can't get bogged down in delays.

But a bill needs debate and more then four hours is needed

And while I read threads here about abolishing the Seanad and President, you could also argue they could be given more power to balance the Dáil.

What we have now is the party in power with a strong party whip who can manage the backbenchers can pass most anything they want with only the Supreme Court to stop them

jimmycrackcorm

feelingstressed wrote: »

This sort of thing needs debate.
Now I know sometimes you need instant action and to force something through and can't get bogged down in delays.

But a bill needs debate and more then four hours is needed

But a debate is only useful if it is being debated by people who have expertise in that area and not simply for populism.

And while I read threads here about abolishing the Seanad and President, you could also argue they could be given more power to balance the Dáil.

Just how many people do we need to make decisions? I don't recall electing any senators either...

What we have now is the party in power with a strong party whip who can manage the backbenchers can pass most anything they want with only the Supreme Court to stop them

The next government can reverse any decision now being made - but even Labour said they won't be reversing any of the current governments cuts for example.

meglome

The Raven. wrote: »

Just when we thought things couldn't get much worse, Brian Lenihan has now awarded himself 'the most powerful positions in finance ever given to any Minister in any government in the history of the State'.

I thought the new legislation was only to deal with the bank bonuses (which I have omitted from the quotes), but obviously Lenihan has seized the opportunity to grab as much power as possible over all the banks and financial institutions throughout the state. Undoubtedly he will dump all his Fianna Fail friends into managerial positions in these institutions before he leaves the government.

I don't know what other posters here think of this, but I have to say that I find it scary.

While in principal I welcome extraordinary legislation to help fix our extraordinary situation, having Brian Lenihan in charge worries me a lot. I agree with Michael Noonan of FG that putting the central bank governor in charge of this would have been far better. And this assumes the legislation has a very finite time-frame.

StupidLikeAFox

Please god dont let it be used for some nice "jobs for the boys". I dont think they would get away with blatant cronyism here but stranger things have happened

Shea O'Meara

This is very worrying indeed.
Lenihan has proven not very good, dare I say disastrous, in matters regarding the states finances. Who beside himself thinks he's capable of such a role?

I feel all banks that got a bailout should now be owned or part owned by the tax payer. After all, business is business. The state should share in future profit, (if any). If you get a bank loan they essentially own that money until you pay it back with interest. The same rules should apply but with the addition of very tight regulation by the state.
However, we hear the scare mongering regards letting the banks fail, with how we would be viewed as a nation, how business and foreign investment would go elsewhere.....How is giving one man, a man with a very poor financial track record, who was voted worst finance minister, who has, in my view, a knee jerk panic approach to the budget, the gall to believe he can oversee such a job of work?
One would be hard pressed to find such a person with the appropriate skills with the world to choose from, we have the guy who pretty much just happened to be next in line on the FFail pecking order.

I have no doubt this will be a 'jobs for the boys' situation. Who and what gets foreclosed and who is given enough rope to hang us all.
We will be feeling the repercussions of this way past 2012.

This is going to bring forth all the scare stories Lenihan himself fed us when bringing NAMA to the table. This is what right wingers fear happening if far left concerns come to power. He and his party are a self fulfilling prophesy of the nations doom.
Thanks to Lenihan, the time to panic is now.

dan_d

So can we all get out there and start emailing our concerns to him???
Costs nothing, and makes it clear that the Irish public will not tolerate the 'jobs for the boys' policy on this...takes about 20 mins of your time.
We need to demand more from our politicians as to how they do business and the only way to do that is to open our mouths and speak up.We own these banks.

thebman

Between this and FF's 300 new appointments before they leave government, it is quite possible they intend to put FF heads into manage these banks to resist, obstruct and go against the flow of anything the next government try to do as well as insisting the past government made no mistakes in the banking crisis as they have already tried to persuade us that this is the case.

Of course the governor of the central bank couldn't have these powers because they put an honest person in there to make it look like everything was okay but they don't want him to have the ability to reform the system or we might end up with an honest, working banking system

gimme5minutes

For those who try to put forward the argument 'the parties are all the same' this is yet another piece of evidence that they most certainly are not. No other party would have the neck on them to do this. This lying incompetent moron Lenihan has got every critical decision along the way and now he is giving himself the power to do whatever he likes when it comes to the banks. This is a recipe for disaster.

ilovesleep

A war is really needed against these bullies to get them out now before they do any damage. Unfortunately us irish wont even give them a slap on the wrist. look at other countries - greece, france, portagal tearing their cities apart against cutbacks. We're crying out to do the right thing whatever that would be now. Have no faith in this government. I hope to get out from here in the new year and the country deserves every bit of poverty and econmic slavery that ye get.

later12

Who was it that said banks are international in life, and national in death. I myself wouldn't write all the banks off just now, however Brian Lenihan is proving himself to be a very determined undertaker. Perhaps he shall get his funeral, after all.

saywhatyousee

ilovesleep wrote: »

A war is really needed against these bullies to get them out now before they do any damage. Unfortunately us irish wont even give them a slap on the wrist. look at other countries - greece, france, portagal tearing their cities apart against cutbacks. We're crying out to do the right thing whatever that would be now. Have no faith in this government. I hope to get out from here in the new year and the country deserves every bit of poverty and econmic slavery that ye get.

what's the point of tearing our cities apart?take a guess who would have to pay if we rasied dublin to the ground tomorrow?garda overtime for riots ect ect

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

meglome

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Given Labours economic polices that could actually be worse. And the added horror of having to listen to her drone on.

oppenheimer1

I don't understand why people here think this is some sort of Machiavellian plot by Lenihan as this legislation is clearly for use by his successor. Wasn't this legislation railroaded through as part of the IMF deal and a condition of funding.

The legislation gives extraordinary powers to the minister but it will be most likely Noonan that will be wielding them. If he doesn't like the responsibility he can pass a new law.

Shea O'Meara

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I completely disagree. You honestly think we should err on the side of caution as regards ditching dangerous idiot Lenihan for fear of someone you believe could be worse? I could not have done as bad a job as Lenihan, in fact if I spent my time in office blindfolded sticking pins in a decisions chart, I could have possibly fared better.

meglome wrote: »

Given Labours economic polices that could actually be worse. And the added horror of having to listen to her drone on.

Again, the 'coulds' and 'what if's?' This is why we have ****wits voting FFail time and time again. And as for the tone of her voice, very constructive, we'll dig up Richard Burton for you:rolleyes:

We will never get anywhere with the 'I know FFail are thieving incompetent bastards, unless they're feathering their own nest, but sure the rest might be worse!' attitude.
And to be fair, it's complete bollocks.

Shea O'Meara

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't understand why people here think this is some sort of Machiavellian plot by Lenihan as this legislation is clearly for use by his successor. Wasn't this legislation railroaded through as part of the IMF deal and a condition of funding.

Personally, I don't trust FFail and with good reason. They will abuse the post with the betterment of the country coming after 'Self' & 'party'.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The legislation gives extraordinary powers to the minister but it will be most likely Noonan that will be wielding them. If he doesn't like the responsibility he can pass a new law.

I hope so, but what cast iron deals will be legally set in stone before then?

Noreen1

I can't believe the continuing arrogance of that man!

Voted the most incompetent Finance Minister for two years in succession, and he has the gall to grant himself extraordinary powers:mad::mad:.

I'm not in the habit of scaremongering, but, IMHO, this Government is becoming more and more totalitarian, and it's time the people of this country gave this matter serious consideration.
The potential for long-term economic sabotage is mind-boggling.:eek:

Since the key to this Government being allowed to remain in office is the support of the Independents, I propose that the people of Ireland - and, in particular, the people who are represented by an Independent candidate, arrange a petition, demanding that the people of Ireland are allowed the earliest possible election - which would be made possible if the Independents withdrew their support for the Government.

It shouldn't be too difficult to place a petition in local shops etc,. and it would have the advantage that no effort would be required on the part of those who might sign it....

Said petition should be entirely independent of bias in favour/against any party - just a straightforward request that our Democratic right to choose our representatives should be honoured.

If enough people put pressure on the Independents, I'm willing to bet they'll suddenly look after their own interests, and those of their offspring, who are waiting in the wings to assume their "right" to the throne.:rolleyes:

Noreen

flutered

noreen what about the gomgreens ?.

Noreen1

flutered wrote: »

noreen what about the gomgreens ?.

The gomgreens know they are political pariahs, with little to no chance of re-election, in most cases - they're likely to grasp any chance to pass their "green" bills while they can.

IMO, they tried to play a popular card by bringing down the Government - they just lacked the courage/political savvy to do it effectively, so a tactic that might have gained them some "gratitude" votes backfired badly.

Noreen

The Raven.

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Personally, I don't trust FFail and with good reason. They will abuse the post with the betterment of the country coming after 'Self' & 'party'.

I hope so, but what cast iron deals will be legally set in stone before then?

I think the following is an indication of the lengths to which the Minister is prepared to go:

Any party found leaking information on any decision made or proposed by the Minister under the law can be fined €100,000 and imprisoned for up to three years.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1215/1224285581401.html

It is hard to imagine the implications of this. Does this law give the elected Minister the power to make proposals or decisions behind closed doors relating to banks owned by the taxpayers without having to inform them on what he is doing with their money? I can see trouble ahead :rolleyes::rolleyes:!!

I wonder if McAleese will find this constitutional!

ilovesleep

The Raven. wrote: »

I think the following is an indication of the lengths to which the Minister is prepared to go:



It is hard to imagine the implications of this. Does this law give the elected Minister the power to make proposals or decisions behind closed doors relating to banks owned by the taxpayers without having to inform them on what he is doing with their money? I can see trouble ahead :rolleyes::rolleyes:!!

I wonder if McAleese will find this constitutional!

Jesus fcuking christ. Im going to purposly vote FF now come election time so that they can inflict more pain and financial rape upon the country. Whatever our government has done is bad but our attitude of lying down and taking it all is even worse. We're not willing to fight back and stand up for ourselves in any way. FF need removing from government and from power but we wont do anything. FF FOREVER AND FOR ALWAYS.

Noreen1

ilovesleep wrote: »

Jesus fcuking christ. Im going to purposly vote FF now come election time so that they can inflict more pain and financial rape upon us. We're not willing to fight back and stand up for ourselves in any way. They need removing from government but we wont do anything. FF FOREVER

:eek: Chill out. The President is having a meeting to (presumably) question the Constitutionality of it. Thank God!
The Supreme Court are bound to shoot this down.
Failing that - people will just have to be educated about the lengths this party are willing to go to.......... directly before we remove them from office.

Noreen

later12

I think the questionable part of the bill which McAleese will raise with the Council of State is section 53 of the Credit Bill which allows the Minister to override acts of the Oireachtas and legislate contrary to its laws.

It isn't actually anything to do with the IMF or the bailout itself.

K-9

Lots of this stuff makes sense though with a major reorganisation of the banks needed. Fair enough, it's FF bringing it in but as has been said already, it will be the next Government probably making use of this legislation. If some of the banks are going to be closed/amalgamated there needs to be no leaks and draconian legislation will be needed on bondholders and shareholders.

Noreen1

K-9 wrote: »

Lots of this stuff makes sense though with a major reorganisation of the banks needed. Fair enough, it's FF bringing it in but as has been said already, it will be the next Government probably making use of this legislation. If some of the banks are going to be closed/amalgamated there needs to be no leaks and draconian legislation will be needed on bondholders and shareholders.

It's true that reorganisation of the banks is needed, and confidentiality is certainly a required element - but why give the powers to the Minister for Finance specifically? Why not the Governor of the Central Bank, with reference made to the Dail/Seanad where necessary/desirable?

Why the rush, without adequate debate?
The role of the Seanad has been seriously undermined - which is less than respectful to either the Seanad, or the Electorate.

Just from reading the Seanad debate:
Why the reference to restoring Anglo?
Why the reference to the (property?) rights of Persons, as opposed to institutions, for instance?
Why the draconian insistence on secrecy - extended to other jurisdictions.

There is much to be concerned about, from a Democratic viewpoint, about the use this legislation may be put to, whether by this or a future Government - not least the fact that the legislation may be extended (apparently without any timeframe?) - beyond 2012.

Add the fact that this legislation has undoubtedly been under consideration for quite some time - without any real debate - by the least trusted Minister for Finance in the history of the state - and I think it's fair to state that people should be very, very concerned.......

JMO, as always.

Noreen

thebman

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't understand why people here think this is some sort of Machiavellian plot by Lenihan as this legislation is clearly for use by his successor. Wasn't this legislation railroaded through as part of the IMF deal and a condition of funding.

The legislation gives extraordinary powers to the minister but it will be most likely Noonan that will be wielding them. If he doesn't like the responsibility he can pass a new law.

FF have bought time with the greens to hold power just long enough to exploit this legislation.

later12

thebman wrote: »

FF have bought time with the greens to hold power just long enough to exploit this legislation.

How, specifically, do you envisage an exploitation? What are you expecting them to exploit in relation to banking policy?

feicim

feelingstressed wrote: »

And while I read threads here about abolishing the Seanad and President, you could also argue they could be given more power to balance the Dáil.

What we have now is the party in power with a strong party whip who can manage the backbenchers can pass most anything they want with only the Supreme Court to stop them

The argument that the seanad is some kind of protection against these kind of shenanigans has kind of been blown apart now.

What is the purpose of the seanad again?

thebman

later10 wrote: »

How, specifically, do you envisage an exploitation? What are you expecting them to exploit in relation to banking policy?

Read my earlier post.

The Raven.

K-9 wrote: »

Lots of this stuff makes sense though with a major reorganisation of the banks needed. Fair enough, it's FF bringing it in but as has been said already, it will be the next Government probably making use of this legislation. If some of the banks are going to be closed/amalgamated there needs to be no leaks and draconian legislation will be needed on bondholders and shareholders.

Of course steps needed to be taken to deal with bonuses and bondholders, but why should these steps be viewed as 'draconian'? These aspects should have been dealt with long before now as standard practice.

What is highly questionable is that 'information on any decision made or proposed by the Minister under the law' should be classified information. It is understandable that certain information relating to specific bank accounts etc. should remain private, but that is not what appears to be stated. The reference is to 'any decision made or proposed by the Minister'. This could mean that anything the Minister wishes to do behind closed doors in relation to the banks is covered by this legislation, and the taxpayers/owners of the banks will not be legally entitled to be informed, under pain of a huge fine or prison sentence.

This is what I consider to be of major concern. Perhaps someone here with an experienced legal mind might care to shed some light on this.

later12

thebman wrote: »

Read my earlier post.

You mean this?

it is quite possible they intend to put FF heads into manage these banks to resist, obstruct and go against the flow of anything the next government try to do as well as insisting the past government made no mistakes

Do you actually have any - any - basis for that at all or are you simply inventing it?

Of course the governor of the central bank couldn't have these powers because they put an honest person in there to make it look like everything was okay

Professor Honohan is probably *the* most honest public banking figure in Ireland, commenting on Ireland, or perhaps within a 10,000 mile radius of Ireland.

He was installed by the Government.

With that in mind, you are seriously telling us they are installing individuals junior to him to corrupt what he is saying, or don't want to give him significant power?

Why don't I buy that theory? Again, any basis for this at all?

thebman

later10 wrote: »

You mean this?
Do you actually have any - any - basis for that at all or are you simply inventing it?

Its an opinion on a discussion forum ... I must have missed that all other posts have proof :pac:

The fact that the Minister for Finance wishes to give himself the power to do it is dangerous enough that we should ask will he abuse it and look at the consequences if he did. The FF party has reasons to abuse this power since it was involved in the boom and the mismanagement of the bust. It is in their interest to hide information that the next government would have access to in order to protect their party ahead of the interest of the taxpayer knowing the truth. Something they have a track record of doing.

Its important to question the authority of the state and why they are trying to grant themselves powers. This is very extreme legislation, the fact that could even allow for the government to do the above should be enough reason to question if it is right and if the power should not be given to the regulator instead of the minister.

Its not an invention, it is one possible reason why they wish to grant themselves such power. Keeping in mind that this power will not just disappear afterwards either, it is open to abuse by future governments too.

It is a stupid power for a government to have IMO.

Professor Honohan is probably *the* most honest public banking figure in Ireland, commenting on Ireland, or perhaps within a 10,000 mile radius of Ireland.

He was installed by the Government.

With that in mind, you are seriously telling us they are installing individuals junior to him to corrupt what he is saying, or don't want to give him significant power?

Why don't I buy that theory? Again, any basis for this at all?

Professor Honohan was only put in place by the government after the existing regulator that was not doing his job had lost all credibility and pressure was applied to the government to appoint someone that had not got a coloured past or close ties to members of the government.

Since his appointment the government have tried to make out that he meant different things to what he has said on a few occasions on prime time.

I'm not saying they are trying to corrupt him but put into the banks people that will not co-operate as honestly as they would if they were appointed directly by the governor of the central bank who has an interest in getting good information from the banks as if the regulator fails to get this information, it is his credibility and not the minister of finances that will be questioned.

Basically one would be foolish to think a politician would not let politics play a part in his appointment to these banks. I don't want the existing government or the next one to have such powers as history shows that such powers are all too often abused.

K-9

The Raven. wrote: »

Of course steps needed to be taken to deal with bonuses and bondholders, but why should these steps be viewed as 'draconian'? These aspects should have been dealt with long before now as standard practice.

Indeed. These aren't normal times and late or not, some draconian decisions (for bankers) are going to have to be made under the IMF/EU plan.

After the €35 Million in the IMF plan, there is nothing left for the banks, last chance saloon. People have missed that with all the drama. I'd prefer draconian decisions than bankers around the Ministers desk deciding on state guarantees tbh. It's to little, too late but there's an election coming and we are talking about FF.

thebman

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed. These aren't normal times and late or not, some draconian decisions (for bankers) are going to have to be made under the IMF/EU plan.

After the €35 Million in the IMF plan, there is nothing left for the banks, last chance saloon. People have missed that with all the drama. I'd prefer draconian decisions than bankers around the Ministers desk deciding on state guarantees tbh. It's to little, too late but there's an election coming and we are talking about FF.

I don't think anyone missed that. I think we don't trust the minister of finance with extreme decisions after past performances.

The Raven.

thebman wrote: »

I don't think anyone missed that. I think we don't trust the minister of finance with extreme decisions after past performances.

No, we certainly didn't miss that. That is the main problem. How could anyone trust the Minister of Finance after all the lies that we have been told and the mess he has made so far? There is no knowing what irreversible catastrophic decisions he will make now with these new powers.

thebaldsoprano

K-9 wrote: »

I'd prefer draconian decisions than bankers around the Ministers desk deciding on state guarantees tbh.

This was my first thought on the need for secrecy too - Government intervention may well leave opportunities for profiteers to take advantage of the situation at taxpayers' expense. If the Minister had to intervene and a rumour got out, the markets may well find a way to take advantage of it. However, once such a decision has been acted on and the possibility put out of reach, it should then be open to taxpayers to raise questions about the Minister's actions and determine if they are in taxpayers' interests or those of some other group.

If it's necessary to keep any of the Minister's decisions secret, this should be lifted within a set time after these decisions have been implemented.

This doesn't eliminate the possibility that FF may use this secrecy to look after their own, but at least taxpayers will find out about it.

Essexboy

Now he has upset the ECB.
http://www.ecb.int/ecb/legal/pdf/en_con_2010_92_f.pdf

Who exactly drafted this Bill?

Jaysoose

Essexboy wrote: »

Now he has upset the ECB.
http://www.ecb.int/ecb/legal/pdf/en_con_2010_92_f.pdf

Who exactly drafted this Bill?

I wonder did he even read the document this time. The majority of the country have absolutely no confidence in Lenihan so instead of stepping aside and letting somebody else have a go he makes himself high chief of all the banks.

Its a bad joke that just keeps running and running.

oncevotedff

feelingstressed wrote: »

What we have now is the party in power with a strong party whip who can manage the backbenchers ...

And clowns like Ned O'Keefe arguing against and voting for.

thebaldsoprano

Essexboy wrote: »

Now he has upset the ECB.
http://www.ecb.int/ecb/legal/pdf/en_con_2010_92_f.pdf

Who exactly drafted this Bill?

I wonder were they watching Primetime last night?

A good example of what can happen when FF are allowed to operate without scrutiny.

The Raven.

President signs Bill on banks into law

PRESIDENT MARY McAleese has signed the controversial Credit Institutions (Stabilisation) Bill into law after consulting the Council of State about its constitutionality.
...
The decision of the President means the Bill is now law but its constitutionality can be challenged by an affected party at a future date. If it had been referred to the Supreme Court and if it had deemed that it was in accordance with the Constitution, it could not have been challenged again on constitutional grounds.

In advance of the President’s decision yesterday, she was encouraged by the Opposition parties to refer the Bill to the Supreme Court.

Fine Gael finance spokesman Michael Noonan said yesterday that he would like to see the legislation tested by the Supreme Court so that it could be proofed against some further nasty surprise for the taxpayer on the banks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1222/1224286079719.html

I find it ridiculous that it could not have been challenged at a later date if it had been deemed to be in accordance with the Constitution by the High Court. This does not allow for the fact that mistakes occur and things get missed.

Anyway, it didn't go to the High Court and no doubt it won't be long before someone takes up the gauntlet and challenges its constitutionality. I sincerely hope they do and I wish them the best of luck.

LostinBlanch

Yeah, but wait and see what happens between now and the new year. I wouldn't put it past Lendahand to try and pull a fast one over the holidays.

ei.sdraob

What could possibly go wrong :rolleyes:

this is the same guy who got us here in first place

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Yeah, but wait and see what happens between now and the new year. I wouldn't put it past Lendahand to try and pull a fast one over the holidays.

AIB nationalised that's where it seems to be leading

Raskolnikov

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This is the kind of blinkered reasoning that has us in the position we are in today.

Fianna Fáil and Brian Lenihan have been responsible for bring in two pieces of legislation (NAMA and the Bank Guarantee) that have bankrupted the State, lost our sovereignty, brought the IMF in, and will plunge the country into a lost decade. May I remind you, that Labour (and Joan Burton) were the only people who voted against this legislation. At this stage, quite frankly, I would have more confidence in Joe Higgins running the government finances. He'd probably run the country into the ground as well, but at least he has the best interests of the people at heart, rather than that of vested interests (senior civil servants, developers, J.P. McManus et al).

I suggest that you actually listen to what Joan Burton is saying, rather than getting fixated on the tone of her voice. To me, it appears that she's the only person who understands the magnitude of our problems, and is coming to the realisation of our only solution (default). I would more naturally deviate towards Fine Gael, but they seem to prefer the continuation of current government policy, which should be anathema to the ordinary Irish citizen.

later12

Raskolnikov wrote: »

This is the kind of blinkered reasoning that has us in the position we are in today.

No it is not. The idea of having Joan Burton allowed anywhere near a sharp object, let alone the national till on Merrion Street, is a genuine worry for a lot of people in Ireland, it seems. Personally I think their fears are justified.

Labour display a worrying resistance to austerity and I feel they would be a put an artificially high floor on public expenditure during their tenure as junior coalition partners, thereby limiting Irish fiscal progress. Ireland does need a change of government, but one that still maintains a dedication to cutting expenditure and facing up to the Unions. Joan Burton is not the person to do that.

If I vote in the General Election I will be voting FG and Green.
This is not the responsible time to elect a Labour government.

Jayuu

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I would more naturally deviate towards Fine Gael, but they seem to prefer the continuation of current government policy, which should be anathema to the ordinary Irish citizen.

I don't think Fine Gael's policies in any way suggest the continuation of current government policy. They want to renegotiate the EU/IMF deal on a more favourable basis which seems a sensible approach. Sadly we're in the position where some sort of bailout is necessary because we won't be able to keep our banks afloat and we won't be able to afford to borrow on the bond markets in mid-2011.

Fine Gael's approach is at least based in the current reality of our economic situation. Its not an easy approach to take and its not the populist way but its a honest assessment of where we are and how we can deal with it.

Poccington

Raskolnikov wrote: »

I suggest that you actually listen to what Joan Burton is saying, rather than getting fixated on the tone of her voice. To me, it appears that she's the only person who understands the magnitude of our problems, and is coming to the realisation of our only solution (default). I would more naturally deviate towards Fine Gael, but they seem to prefer the continuation of current government policy, which should be anathema to the ordinary Irish citizen.

I listened to what she had to say on Budget Day.

She touched on lots of important subjects, such as boys and girls playing GAA and High School Musical. Then of course took the view no to tax hikes and no to cuts in Public spending

How anyone that actually listens to that woman and feels she's either the solution to the problem or even the best of a bad bunch is beyond me.

Shea O'Meara

At a point in a thread such as this I believe quotes are important;

In her address, Ms Burton attacked the Government's policy on Anglo Irish Bank.

She said Anglo's only claim to fame was that it was 'joined at the hip to Fianna Fáil', which was determined to use taxpayers money to bail it out, no matter how many billions it costs and how many jobs disappear in the process.
Deputy Burton accused Taoiseach Brian Cowen of getting pretty much everything wrong from the day he entered the Department of Finance, up to the decision to cover Anglo in the State guarantee.

Other motions adopted included a call to reverse the Budget cuts in basic social welfare rates and in child benefit; while Enterprise Spokesperson Willie Penrose said the party would not tolerate any dismantling of the minimum wage.

Also..

Earlier, Labour TD Pat Rabbitte called for the assets of rogue bankers to be seized by the Criminal Assets Bureau.
Mr Rabbitte said people could not understand why nobody has gone to jail for destroying the economy.
This morning's session focused heavily on banks and the need for a full public inquiry into the Government's handling of the crisis in the sector.
Mr Rabbitte said pending the outcome of the legal process, the CAB should confiscate their substantial assets and properties and that the law should be changed if necessary to allow them to do so.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0417/labour.html

For a party full of bluster and with no policies....I like the above very much.

kev68in

this government has been at the heart of this monumental financial disaster the country has ever seen and they are telling us we are the only ones who can get us out of it .i feel sick to the pit of my stomach with lie after lie the finance minister has told us the corruption that is at the heart of this government is endemic throughout the whole political circus they should all be thrown out on here ears no pension no golden hand shake but they wont the public will listen to more bull **** swallow and digest and vote for one or the other back in .the government could make laws that could make the people that brought the country to its knees pay their dues in stead of allowing them to use loop hole like giving property to wives and spouses it is a real reflection of what the people in power really think of us they do not listen in fact they can not hear so unless we are ready to root out these bollocks es we have no cause for complaint . it seems to me that its all about scratching each others backs and lining their pockets instead of serving the people whom elected them