Advertisement
If you have a new account but can't post, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help to verify your email address. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

Schools building projects - 2nd round of PPPs under construction

  • 15-12-2010 4:39pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    There is currently 6 new schools being built via the Public Private Partnership process. These are fairly big projects and Sisk won the contract for the Abbeyfeale and Wicklow community colleges back in June this year. As Abbeyfeale would be my local town I have a keen interest and thought a thread on here would be a good idea to map the progress of all 6 schemes.



    Abbeyfeale town CC
    W2_F_209_3002.jpg





    The 6 schools in the PPP schools bundle 2 are:
    • Bantry Community College, Co. Cork. An amalgamation of St. Goban's College and Ard Scoil Phobail to provide 700 pupil places.

    • Gaelscoil Bheanntraí, Co. Cork. A new eight classroom primary school to provide permanent accommodation for the Gaelscoil established in 1994 and provides 200 pupil places.

    • Kildare Town Community School, Co. Kildare. An amalgamation of St. Joseph's Academy, Presentation Secondary School and Vocational School to provide 1000 pupil places.

    • Abbeyfeale Community College, Co. Limerick. An amalgamation of St. Ita's College, St. Joseph's Secondary School and Vocational School to provide 850 pupil places.

    • Wicklow Town Community College, Co. Wicklow. An amalgamation of Abbey Vocational School and De La Salle Secondary School to provide 1000 pupil places.

    • Athboy Community School, Co. Meath. An amalgamation of St. Joseph's Secondary School & St. James' Vocational School to provide 950 pupil places.



    Wicklow Town CC
    W2_F_207_3000.jpg




    Heres a press release from June 2010:

    As part of the MPFI Consortium, Sisk are delighted to announce the signing of the contract for the Schools Bundle 2 PPP. Sisk will be the design and build contractor on the schools in Abbeyfeale and Wicklow.

    The six schools have been designed by domestic design consultants and are to be constructed by Pierse Contracting and John Sisk & Son Ltd, two of Ireland's principal construction companies. The construction period will be approximately 18 months, during which time in excess of 1,000 construction workers will be employed across the project sites.

    Extracted from the Department of Education and Science Website, 02 June, 2010:

    Tánaiste & Minister for Education and Skills Mary Coughlan T.D. today announced that the contract for the provision of six new schools had been signed with Macquarie Partnerships for Ireland (MPFI). These six schools will provide places for over 4,700 pupils and make up the second bundle of PPP schools projects to be delivered under the Department's Public Private Partnership (PPP) Programme.

    Under the PPP model, the schools will be designed, built, financed and maintained for 25 years by MPFI.
    "I am conscious of the importance of this project to the schools and to the construction industry at this particular time and I am delighted to announce that the National Development Finance Agency (NDFA) has today signed the contract with MPFI and that construction will commence immediately. The six new schools will be available by the end of 2011," said the Tánaiste.

    "The new schools in Bantry will be built on one site while retaining their separate identities." explained the Tánaiste.

    "For the five post-primary schools today's announcement should be regarded by the schools concerned as an affirmation of the work they did in agreeing to consolidate provision. In each location the new school will ensure the students in those centres will be able to access a broad subject range," added the Tánaiste.

    The Tánaiste said that staff and students in all six schools can look forward to using the most up-to-date designs and facilities. The PPP model allows the schools' management and staff to concentrate on their core educational duties and it is a particularly attractive feature of the process.

    As well as providing new accommodation the facilities will be maintained by MPFI for 25 years. Under the PPP process, MPFI will provide a range of facilities, management services including building maintenance, cleaning, security, grounds maintenance and specialist equipment support. The principle of 'everything works' applies under the PPP process - classrooms, laboratories, specialist equipment, heating and lighting all have to be available every day.

    The Tánaiste paid tribute to all those involved in bringing the project to this stage and in particular to the management and principals of the schools, for their support of the PPP process. She also acknowledged the work of her Department's staff and the staff of the NDFA who are responsible for the procurement and delivery of the six schools.

    Brian Murphy, C.E.O. of the NDFA noted that this signing marks an important milestone in the delivery of the Schools PPP Programme. He also welcomed the support of the European Investment Bank for this project.



    However

    ........ back in November Pierse Contracting went into recievership meaning Sisk is now over construction on all 6 schools!


    Work is due to recommence this week on the construction of Athboy Community School, after it was halted by Pierse Construction when the company went into examinership.

    Last week, the building company went into liquidation, and John Sisk & Son Ltd have taken over full management of the entire site as is required under the provisions of the construction joint venture (CJV) contract.

    The National Development Finance Agency (NDFA), on behalf of the Department of Education, signed the contract in early June 2010 with Macquarie Partnership for Ireland (MPFI) for the provision of six new schools under the Department’s Schools Public Private Partnership Programme.

    Pierse Contracting was contracted to build four of the six schools in this bundle: Bantry Community College and Gaelscoil Bantry, Kildare Town Community School and Athboy Community School, while John Sisk & Son is building the other two schools, Wicklow Town Community College and Abbeyfeale Community College.

    The contract signed with Macquarie Partnerships for Ireland (MPFI) provides that should there be any difficulties in relation to a contractor being unable to continue, the consortium must make alternative arrangements to deliver the schools.

    The National Development Finance Agency said it has been in constant contact with MPFI and arrangements are already in place to provide for the continuation of the construction of the schools, according to the Department of Agriculture.

    John Sisk and Son Ltd have taken over full management of all three Pierse sites and anticipates productive work will re-commence on all three sites within the next couple of days, the Department said on Monday.

    The board of management met on Monday night of this week and welcomed the fact that Sisk has moved onto the site. It will take three weeks to establish if the initial timeframe can be adhered to, but a lot of progress was made over the summer, and the contractors are hopeful that the original schedule will be met.

    The new school building is due to be completed by November 2011 under the PPP scheme. It will cater for up to 950 pupils and will have state-of-the-art facilities, including 21 general classrooms, three woodwork/architectural technology rooms, two engineering rooms, two home economics rooms with a dedicated dress design room, three art rooms, five science rooms, three multi-media rooms and a fully equipped gym and fitness suite.

    The building will also have dedicated rooms for music, mathematics, social studies, business, religious education, technical graphics, a library and parents’/guardians’ room. On-site provision will also be made for a six hardcourt playing areas and a full-size soccer pitch.

    The new building will also incorporate a special needs unit which will provide for students with special needs and allow for access to mainstream classes as required.



    It was also in the Seanad for debate here when Bantry CC was in doubt due to the recievership. I cant find the design of the other four schools online however.



    Ref 1: http://www.sisk.ie
    Ref 2:http://www.meathchronicle.ie


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 246 ✭✭ bg07


    Are the first bundle of schools built and open yet? I think there were 4 in total.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    Yes they have all been completed.

    The four schools in the first PPP contract were:
    • St Mary's CBS, Portlaoise
    • Scoil Chríost Rí, Portloaise
    • St Rynagh's CC Banagher
    • Gallen CS Ferbane

    Here is finished school in Portlaoise. It looks very impressive:

    5409_027%5B1%5D.jpg


    AFAIK the Abbeyfeale community college will be finished for 2012. It's a great start but there is so many more towns in the country that need better facilities and larger size classrooms.

    I went to the Vocational School in Abbeyfeale and the facilities were substandard to be honest with a lot of classes in prefabs. The more of these PPP schemes starting the better for the future of our childrens education.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    I've got an odd reason for hoping that every proposed project for this goes ahead -this is starting to tear secondary education out of the hands of the Church finally, as nearly all of these are being run under the VEC. Although there's a lovely oxymoron on the website of the Banagher one.

    In most cases its a merger of an existing VEC school and one or two religious ones. Just need something similar to happen in the primary sector...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭ spacetweek


    MYOB wrote: »
    I've got an odd reason for hoping that every proposed project for this goes ahead -this is starting to tear secondary education out of the hands of the Church finally, as nearly all of these are being run under the VEC. Although there's a lovely oxymoron on the website of the Banagher one.

    In most cases its a merger of an existing VEC school and one or two religious ones. Just need something similar to happen in the primary sector...
    Another thing I'm wondering is whether these are co-ed? Gender segregation in schools is bizarre and a relic of Church influence. One of the primary purposes of school is to socially normalise children and you won't do that by making them spend all their time with the same sex. It brings out the worst in both sexes - the girls are bitchy and suspicious of men, the blokes all fight all the time and are very heavy handed when chatting up women.

    As well as wresting control of schools from the church, where they have shown us they can't be trusted to be in charge of children, this is an opportunity to correct this bizarre social segregation.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    I think the state hasn't funded the construction of single sex schools for years. But most of these seem to be a convent plus a brothers plus the existing VEC school merging.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭ eia340600


    It's proven that girls do better when seperated from boys at school.Boys do worse.Unfortunately we can't segregate the girls and not segregate the boys.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ nickle


    MYOB wrote: »
    I think the state hasn't funded the construction of single sex schools for years. But most of these seem to be a convent plus a brothers plus the existing VEC school merging.


    HI, never heard of a sex school, single or multiple! Is it an Abbeyfeale thing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    It be interesting to see what the costs for the schools are. According to the Irish Times today the state is paying €27million a year in Prefab rental which is an absolute disgrace!

    In 2000 in comparison the spend was equivalent to €4million.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,397 Mod ✭✭✭✭ spacetweek


    dubhthach wrote: »
    It be interesting to see what the costs for the schools are. According to the Irish Times today the state is paying €27million a year in Prefab rental which is an absolute disgrace!
    Disgrace. I grew up in Lucan and our Educate Together school has entirely consisted of prefabs for over a decade now (view).
    eia340600 wrote: »
    It's proven that girls do better when seperated from boys at school.Boys do worse.
    Gonna need a source there cause that just goes way against common sense.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Gonna need a source there cause that just goes way against common sense.

    I've heard it stated many times before too, however, never a source.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,657 CMod ✭✭✭✭ spurious


    There are lots of sources about - all sorts of aspects of mixed and single sex schooling have been studied a lot.
    Here's just one : http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080411150856.htm

    It's a bit more complicated though as it's been found that teachers of both genders are prone to ignore girls and give more attention to boys in mixed groups. Of course, this may be as much a result of the conditioning of the teachers as anything else.

    I don't think any new schools in the last number of years have been single sex.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Disgrace. I grew up in Lucan and our Educate Together school has entirely consisted of prefabs for over a decade now (view).

    It's fairly amazing to see schools that consist completely of prefabs awh well and supposedly we are after a "knowledge economy" where multi-nationals are attracted by the "high quality" of our education system -- :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭ dfbemt


    tech2 wrote: »
    Yes they have all been completed.

    The four schools in the first PPP contract were:
    • St Mary's CBS, Portlaoise
    • Scoil Chríost Rí, Portloaise
    • St Rynagh's CC Banagher
    • Gallen CS Ferbane

    Which are all amazingly enough in the Taoiseachs constituency :mad:


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    dfbemt wrote: »
    Which are all amazingly enough in the Taoiseachs constituency :mad:

    He wasn't Taoiseach at the time.... but he was Minister for Finance, so still had significant leverage available over issuing a PPP!


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »
    I've got an odd reason for hoping that every proposed project for this goes ahead -this is starting to tear secondary education out of the hands of the Church finally, as nearly all of these are being run under the VEC. Although there's a lovely oxymoron on the website of the Banagher one.

    When you state "the Church", which church do you mean?


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 crucamim


    spacetweek wrote: »

    As well as wresting control of schools from the church, where they have shown us they can't be trusted to be in charge of children, this is an opportunity to correct this bizarre social segregation.

    Do taxpapers, who are practising Catholics, want their children educated in schools not controlled by their Church?
    Do taxpayers, who are practising Protestants, want their children educated in State schools which are controlled by lay Catholics?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    When you state "the Church", which church do you mean?

    The Catholic Church, who practically control education in this state, particularly primary. Generally on property they never provided or paid for (British Government constructed national schools, or state-built replacement)

    I went to a Catholic Church "owned" school which consisted of a 1940s state funded replacement for an 19th century state funded building; coupled to a 1960s VEC funded secondary school (since replaced - the buildings were subsumed by the primary). The local priest at the time acted as if the school was his own, personal property right down to sequestering part of it for a "parish office". Said priest has been torn to bits by the Murphy report, oddly enough...

    The school has since had a further, again state funded, extension and the parish office is STILL there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »
    The Catholic Church, who practically control education in this state, particularly primary. Generally on property they never provided or paid for (British Government constructed national schools, or state-built replacement)

    I went to a Catholic Church "owned" school which consisted of a 1940s state funded replacement for an 19th century state funded building; coupled to a 1960s VEC funded secondary school (since replaced - the buildings were subsumed by the primary). The local priest at the time acted as if the school was his own, personal property right down to sequestering part of it for a "parish office". Said priest has been torn to bits by the Murphy report, oddly enough...

    The school has since had a further, again state funded, extension and the parish office is STILL there.

    Does the Church of Ireland control any schools in the state? Does the Presbyterian Church? Have most members of those Church agreed to their churches losing control of their schools. Have most practising Catholics agreed to their Church losing control of Catholic schools?

    Are you really sure that the UK government built any "national schools"? Could you provide any evidence that the UK government build the national schools and handed them over to the RC Church?

    When you use the phrase "state funded", do you mean "taxpayer funded"? Do practising Catholics pay tax?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    Does the Church of Ireland control any schools in the state? Does the Presbyterian Church? Have most members of those Church agreed to their churches losing control of their schools. Have most practising Catholics agreed to their Church losing control of Catholic schools?

    Are you really sure that the UK government built any "national schools"? Could you provide any evidence that the UK government build the national schools and handed them over to the RC Church?

    When you use the phrase "state funded", do you mean "taxpayer funded"? Do practising Catholics pay tax?

    The other churches who operate national schools operate less than 1% of the quantity the Catholic Church do.

    The UK government funded the construction of the national school network in Ireland in the 19th Century. It was not them who "handed them over", more it was the churches who effectively weaselled control of them over time, ably assisted by the infant Irish state.

    This is a legally secular state, so your arguments about "tax paying $religiousbelievers" is irrelevant. State funded schools, of which 95%+ were built with funding provided either by this state or its predecessor should not have any religious control. The schools should not be "theirs" to contol

    As goes secondaries, the religious orders/churches in question did, generally, actually build these on their own land until the 1960s or so. The state can't sieze these, but any (such as where I eventually did my leaving cert, with a 1960s state funded building and a later state funded extension; on state owned land provided for due to the planned expansion of the town its in) where the state has provided them should again, have no religious control. Said school does, surreally.

    The PPP scheme is addressing this, as I said in my first posting. As goes national schools, the state already owns them in reality; one piece of legislation to replace the boards would solve that problem overnight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »

    "The other churches who operate national schools operate less than 1% of the quantity the Catholic Church do."

    Do you think that the other churches should lose control of their schools? If not, why not? Are you anti-Catholic? Do you approve of anti-Catholic legislation?

    "The UK government funded the construction of the national school network in Ireland in the 19th Century. It was not them who "handed them over"

    Does those two sentences mean that you have changed your tune? Are you now admitting that the UK government did not build the schools and did not hand them over to the RC Church? If so, does this mean we are making progress towards establishing the truth?

    "it was the churches who effectively weaselled control of them over time, ably assisted by the infant Irish state".

    How did the churches "weasal control" over these schools? If the State did not own the schools, from whom did the churches "weasal control"? Who established the schools in the first instance? Did the churches "weasal control" from themselves?

    "This is a legally secular state, so your arguments about "tax paying $religious believers" is irrelevant."

    Why are they irrelevant? Are you suggesting that Catholic taxpayers should have no right to vote? Or that the Catholic Church should have no right to control its own property?

    "State funded schools, of which 95%+ were built with funding provided either by this state or its predecessor should not have any religious control. The schools should not be "theirs" to contol"

    Why not? If the Churches own them, why should they not have control over their own property?

    "The PPP scheme is addressing this, as I said in my first posting. As goes national schools, the state already owns them in reality; one piece of legislation to replace the boards would solve that problem overnight."

    You might be right but I suspect that you are wrong and very wrong. I suspect that the legislation which you suggest would require a constitutional amendment.

    P.S.

    If you receive help from the taxpayer to buy your house (i.e. mortgage tax relief), does that mean that you should have no control over your house?

    If you are educated at the expense of the taxpayer, should you be allowed to emigrate without the taxpayers' permission?

    Are you insinuating that wealthy Catholics who can afford private education have a right to keep their children safe from anti-Catholics, while poor Catholics have no such right?


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    Do you think that the other churches should lose control of their schools? If not, why not? Are you anti-Catholic? Do you approve of anti-Catholic legislation?

    If they were state funded, yes, they should be controlled by the state. However, most of them - such as the single quaker school, etc - were constructed by the religions in question.
    crucamim wrote: »
    Does those two sentences mean that you have changed your tune? Are you now admitting that the UK government did not build the schools and did not hand them over to the RC Church? If so, does this mean we are making progress towards establishing the truth?

    If you're *already* claiming I've said things I haven't, we're off to a bad start. I'm calling you up on this now as if continue the same thing, you're not worth debating with

    I said the UK govt - which was the govt of the state at the time - funded them, and I said that the churches later got control of them. That is all I've said. Anything else is you trying to force words in to my mouth, which I'm not letting you do.
    crucamim wrote: »
    How did the churches "weasal control" over these schools? If the State did not own the schools, from whom did the churches "weasal control"? Who established the schools in the first instance? Did the churches "weasal control" from themselves?

    National schools were founded by the state (the UK, as was) with a board of governers consisting of members of the three dominant churches in the sate, to operate them on a non-denominational basis with no religious education.

    Over time, specific churches managed to get control of the entire boards, mainly the Catholic church controlling the board of about 95% of the ones in the state. They now claim to "own" these schools which only the state has ever funded.
    crucamim wrote: »
    Why are they irrelevant? Are you suggesting that Catholic taxpayers should have no right to vote? Or that the Catholic Church should have no right to control its own property?

    I don't consider state constructed and funded property to be that of the Catholic (or any) Church.
    crucamim wrote: »
    Why not? If the Churches own them, why should they not have control over their own property?

    Because the state built them and the state pays for them.
    crucamim wrote: »

    You might be right but I suspect that you are wrong and very wrong. I suspect that the legislation which you suggest would require a constitutional amendment.

    I suspect you'll find that appropriation acts are constitutional here, sorry.
    crucamim wrote: »
    If you receive help from the taxpayer to buy your house (i.e. mortgage tax relief), does that mean that you should have no control over your house?

    If the state is willing to build me a house and let me slowly grasp control of it over time, I'll let them take it back. Try comparing like with like, please.
    crucamim wrote: »
    Are you insinuating that wealthy Catholics who can afford private education have a right to keep their children safe from anti-Catholics, while poor Catholics have no such right?

    Not only insinuating, but stating it. The state should not, under any circumstances fund, enable or otherwise assist single religion schools.

    However, you seem to believe its appropriate for the state to fund religions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »

    "If they were state funded, yes, they should be controlled by the state. However, most of them - such as the single quaker school, etc - were constructed by the religions in question."

    So were the Catholic schools.

    "I said the UK govt - which was the govt of the state at the time - funded them, and I said that the churches later got control of them. "

    Not true. When universal education was estabished in 1831, the State based it on the existing denominational schools.

    "National schools were founded by the state (the UK, as was)"

    Not true.

    "with a board of governers consisting of members of the three dominant churches in the sate, to operate them on a non-denominational basis with no religious education."

    Not true. There was a Board of Education consisting of 2 Catholics and 5 Protestants controlling education in an Ireland which was about 80% Catholic. The Catholic bishops accepted that unfair regime because its leading light, a Bishop Doyle, was a fanitical supporter of integrated education.


    "Over time, specific churches managed to get control of the entire boards, mainly the Catholic church controlling the board of about 95% of the ones in the state."

    It was the Protestant churches, especially the Presbyterians, who overthrew the system. Among other things, they burned schools as part of their campaign. I suggest that you research the Broughshane incident.


    "They now claim to "own" these schools which only the state has ever funded."

    The Catholic church does own the schools which it controls. And it is untrue to say that only the State has ever funded them. Even now, in Eire, Catholic schools do not receive 100% State funding as they do in Holland and, in that other Orange State, Northern Ireland.

    "I don't consider state constructed and funded property to be that of the Catholic (or any) Church. "


    I do. Just as I consider the house which you buy with assistance from the taxpayer (mortgage tax relief) to be your property.

    "Because the state built them and the state pays for them."

    It did not build them. It does pay for most of their maintenance - from money paid by taxpayers - many of whom are practising Catholics.

    "I suspect you'll find that appropriation acts are constitutional here, sorry."


    I do not.

    "If the state is willing to build me a house and let me slowly grasp control of it over time, I'll let them take it back. Try comparing like with like, please."

    Take your own advice. In Eire the State did not build schools for Catholics or for any other Church. In Northern Ireland, the State does build schools for the Protestant churches.

    "Not only insinuating, but stating it. The state should not, under any circumstances fund, enable or otherwise assist single religion schools."

    So you think that wealthy Catholics who can afford private education have a right to keep their children safe from anti-Catholics while poor Catholics have no such right. Thank you for being so honest.

    "However, you seem to believe its appropriate for the state to fund religions."

    No, I do not. I think that the State should not fund any school, not even the salaries of the teachers. I think that all schools should be self supporting - maintained by the fees paid by parents. Child Benefit should be increased to enable the parents to pay those fees. The State should not fund religions, it should fund parents. If you want to send your children to a school which offers only a secular education, that would be your business. If others want to send their children to Catholic schools that would be their business. If others want to send their children to Presbyterian schools, or Jewish schools or Church of Ireland schools, that would be their business. I am a liberal and being a genuine liberal includes defending the right of Catholics to be Catholics - safe from the attacks of secularists like yourself. Please be a liberal and respect diversity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,447 ✭✭✭✭ expectationlost


    vec operate in the same way as church schools with all curriculum religious teaching, and ethos.


  • Registered Users Posts: 897 crucamim


    vec operate in the same way as church schools with all curriculum religious teaching, and ethos.

    You keep late hours. Thank heavens, I am not the only person in the world who has insomnia. My own fault. Since I retired, I have turned night into day - getting out of bed far too late and then not being ready for sleep at normal bed-time.

    If VEC schools are owned by the State or by an emanation of the State, why do they allow any teaching of religion in them? Why should a State school operate in the same way as a church school? It does not seem fair to secularists. I think, that people who want their children taught in a religious environment, should send them to a Faith school. People who send their children to a State school have every right to be indignant when they find that it is really not totally secular.

    The best way to keep Catholic schools truly Catholic is to have plenty of secular schools to attract anti-Catholic pupils and anti-Catholic teachers. The best way to keep State schools secular is to have plenty of faith schools to attract the teachers and pupils who do practise a religion.

    At the risk of derailing this thread, I suggest that there is far too much praying done in Catholic schools and far too much time spent on teaching religion - much of which is not in the least bit interesting or relevant. So long as Catholic children and teachers are segregated from anti-Catholics, there is no need to teach religion. It is not the teaching of religion or the praying which keeps Catholics safe, it is the segregation which provides the security.

    Thank you for that information about VEC schools. I am really sad to learn that they are not secular. It is not much wonder that the secularists have such a siege mentality.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    So were the Catholic schools.

    Not true. When universal education was estabished in 1831, the State based it on the existing denominational schools.

    Not true.

    Not true. There was a Board of Education consisting of 2 Catholics and 5 Protestants controlling education in an Ireland which was about 80% Catholic. The Catholic bishops accepted that unfair regime because its leading light, a Bishop Doyle, was a fanitical supporter of integrated education.

    Nice revision of history there. Try again, cause you're wrong on every point.

    The majority of national school buildings in Ireland were built by the Board of Works (the predecessor of the OPW under British rule) on government purchased land and were run by a 2 Catholic, 2 COI, 2 Presbyterian locally appointed board to run the school on a non denominational basis. Most schools in Ireland are predecessors of these and have been effectively stolen by the Catholic Church.

    crucamim wrote: »
    The Catholic church does own the schools which it controls. And it is untrue to say that only the State has ever funded them. Even now, in Eire, Catholic schools do not receive 100% State funding as they do in Holland and, in that other Orange State, Northern Ireland.

    Tell me again how a school built with state money on state bought land with state paid teachers can be twisted in to "untrue" state funding
    crucamim wrote: »

    It did not build them. It does pay for most of their maintenance - from money paid by taxpayers - many of whom are practising Catholics.

    Except it did, other than in your revisionist history.
    crucamim wrote: »
    Take your own advice. In Eire the State did not build schools for Catholics or for any other Church. In Northern Ireland, the State does build schools for the Protestant churches.

    The schools in question were founded up to 80 years prior to the formation of "Eire".

    Additionally, you're conveniently ignoring the hundreds of replacement school buildings funded by the Irish state since then for religious schools. As I said, I went to a Catholic-controlled school which the local priest treated as his private property. Built by the state in 1943 on state owned land with an early 1960s VEC school (state funded) later joined on to it via further early 70s extension. It has since received another state funded extension

    How do you claim the state didn't build this for the church?
    crucamim wrote: »
    So you think that wealthy Catholics who can afford private education have a right to keep their children safe from anti-Catholics while poor Catholics have no such right. Thank you for being so honest.

    Twisting non religious education in to "anti-Catholic" eh...
    crucamim wrote: »
    No, I do not. I think that the State should not fund any school, not even the salaries of the teachers. I think that all schools should be self supporting - maintained by the fees paid by parents. Child Benefit should be increased to enable the parents to pay those fees. The State should not fund religions, it should fund parents. If you want to send your children to a school which offers only a secular education, that would be your business. If others want to send their children to Catholic schools that would be their business. If others want to send their children to Presbyterian schools, or Jewish schools or Church of Ireland schools, that would be their business. I am a liberal and being a genuine liberal includes defending the right of Catholics to be Catholics - safe from the attacks of secularists like yourself. Please be a liberal and respect diversity.

    You're on your own there. You're not liberal, despite you convincing yourself you are. Keeping state built and funded schools in the control of religions is not "liberal".

    The state should provide free, non-religious education and let religions provide education themselves if they wish. The state should not fund this in any way, shape, or form. This is the correct way to handle funding of schools, not your insanity there.

    You've quite clearly shown yourself to be a Catholic zealot, and I'm not going to waste my time dealing with zealots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    Folks, please get back to the infrastructure itself. Any more of the posts above will lead to infractions


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Personally as a Parent I would prefer a non-religious school for my son. He will be going to school in either 2013/2014. As a parent however I do not have a choice. This also applies to the lack of Irish medium education as well (despite growth of Gaelscoil movement)

    In the US there are Sunday-schools run by the different churches where parents can send their children to receive a religious education. I don't see why state paid teachers are providing religious education. Especially as this should be something better provided by people with theological training.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭✭✭ lynner83


    these are now finished,......they seem to have done an impressive job!

    http://www.sisk.ie/ie/expertise/education

    1733-kildare-commun.jpg
    1533-wicklow-town-community-college.jpg

    gallery-1525.jpg
    gallery-1684.jpg
    gallery-1680.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,262 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Bundle 5 of the Public Private Partnership (PPP) school building programme was announced last week;

    http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR13-05-03.html
    The Minister for Education and Skills, Ruairí Quinn T.D., today announced details of the schools that are to be delivered in Bundle 5 of the Public Private Partnership (PPP) school building programme.

    An existing primary school, St Philomena’s National School in Bray, Co. Wicklow and three post- primary schools, Eureka Secondary School in Kells, Co. Meath, Coláiste Raithín in Bray, Co. Wicklow, andLoreto College in Wexford, will get new school buildings under this new bundle.

    A VEC college in Carlow town currently providing Post-Leaving Certificate courses and mainstream second-level education will be replaced with two new institutions. The joint campus will comprise a post-primary school and a further education college, each catering for 1,000 students.

    The projects, due to be completed by the end of 2016, will see some 4,650 students benefit from state of the art classrooms and facilities. Local communities will also benefit, as many schools make their grounds and buildings available for a range of community activities.

    It is expected that approximately 750 jobs in construction will be created
    Schools in Bundle 5:
    SchoolLocation
    Carlow VS
    Carlow FE College
    Eureka Secondary School, Kells
    Coláiste Raithín, Bray
    St Philomena’s NS, Bray
    Loreto College
    Location
    Carlow
    Carlow
    Meath
    Wicklow
    Wicklow
    WexfordSchool Type
    Post Primary
    FE College
    Post Primary
    Primary
    Post Primary
    Post-Primary

    EDIT; I am struggling with the table, does anyone know how to get the columns side by side instead of one below the other?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    I don't know what bundle it was but a new 850 pupil school at Doon in Limerick is under construction. It's got some interesting construction photos on its site http://www.stn.ie/Pictures.html


Advertisement