Bow Velocitys and Lethality

War Machine 539

Let me start of by saying : I know NOTHING about archery. I did a little as a kid, but not much.
Is there any way to make a bow safe to shoot at a person? Obviously not shoot them, but can a bow be nerfed down, and are there specific arrows that arent lethal? Im not a fledgling killer trying to get some training, I do Airsoft and have been considering this for a while and thought I would ask the experts for some advice before I do anything stupid!

Can you give me all the basic info, I.E. Legal FPS, specific arrow types, weaker bows etc.

So can you guys help me out? Thanks in advance!
Phil

Cookie_Monster

my first and obvious reaction would be NO

even if you have a very light poundage and an un-tipped arrow / soft tipped arrow there still going to be quite a punch behind it.

best stick with this:

Genghiz Cohen

Liek zees?

War Machine 539

I have found some very specific arrows, But I would be firing them at armored targets . . . . . . . One the velocity was under 328 FPS with a rounded arrow - Like a fishing float - on top I think it would be relativeley safe . . . . . . would it not? The arrows are shatter proof and I would really be going for shots from a good distance . . . . . 60-80 metres plus!

greysides

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Let me start of by saying : I know NOTHING about archery

War Machine 539 wrote: »

I have found some very specific arrows, But I would be firing them at armored targets . . . . . . . One the velocity was under 328 FPS with a rounded arrow - Like a fishing float - on top I think it would be relativeley safe . . . . . . would it not? The arrows are shatter proof and I would really be going for shots from a good distance . . . . . 60-80 metres plus!

328 fps is extremely fast, I doubt high powered hunting bows could achieve it; maybe compounds. At that speed a drinking straw could be lethal.

Drop the idea, no good can come of it.

No archer is his right mind would want you to go ahead. You can only bring the sport into disrepute with the inevitable accident. Archery is one of the safest sports there is.

The cardinal rule of archery is you do not point a nocked arrow is the direction of a human. :eek:

You wish to do this deliberately!:mad:

You were on the right track when you said:I know NOTHING about archery.

Tiddlypeeps

People into LARP do it all the time. If you use a fairly low poundage bow 20/22 lbs or less, and arrows with the pointy tip replaced by a rubber disk surrounded by tonnes of foam. The big foam tips make the arrow travel so slow that you can easily grab the arrow out of the air. You would be doing very well and would have to be insanely unlucky to do any damage to anyone with that setup.

Tiddlypeeps

Actually this site http://www.primalforge.co.uk/low_distance_arrows_black say that their arrows are safe up to 30lbs. Loads of the large LARP events have deemed those arrows as safe, and its really not in their interest to promote unsafe equipment.

Thargor

challengemaster

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

People into LARP do it all the time. If you use a fairly low poundage bow 20/22 lbs or less, and arrows with the pointy tip replaced by a rubber disk surrounded by tonnes of foam. The big foam tips make the arrow travel so slow that you can easily grab the arrow out of the air. You would be doing very well and would have to be insanely unlucky to do any damage to anyone with that setup.

At 60-80+ metres though? I mean, that's bordering on olympic distances. Meaning recurve will be >40# or using a compound. Either of which is going to be very expensive.

Op: for that range, you're looking at very strong bows, not weak ones. Arrows don't naturally defy the laws of gravity. Unless you've a couple of grand lying around with nothing better to do, forget about it.

ruiner

Might get more answers here
http://livinghistory.ie/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1289

LARPing and re-enactments are done with low poundage longbows or American flat bows and the arrows are shot at a high angle with the idea of the arrows bassically falling on someone, not being shot directly at them. They also use massive feathers to slow the arrows down.

Arrow blunts are made out of rubber so you'll still get a fair smack off them if you get hit and occassionally the shafts can pass through the blunt from what I hear. Not something you want to trial and error with

johnmcdnl

when I went to my first ever archery lesson the first thing I was told that if I ever pointed a bow at anyone I'd be put straight out the door - even if it wasn't loaded...

unless your going to use children's bow and arrow set like cowboy and Indian sets shelve the idea - even with the lightest bows the arrows are going fast enough to do some serious damage if they hit anyone - unless you were maybe wearing a suit of armor and tbh if your trying to do airsoft with archery bows trying to run round in a suit of arrow isn't gonna be a lot of fun...

for your own safety - ditch the plans mate


but i really hope you do find a way to do it because it'd be so much fun :P but in all seriousness - don't do it

PokeyMcArrow

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

Actually this site http://www.primalforge.co.uk/low_distance_arrows_black say that their arrows are safe up to 30lbs. Loads of the large LARP events have deemed those arrows as safe, and its really not in their interest to promote unsafe equipment.

Where does it say that??

It does say "Do not aim or shoot at humans or living animals."

Completely agree with Greysides.. stupid idea, leave it alone.

Genghiz Cohen

PokeyMcArrow wrote: »

Where does it say that??

It does say "Do not aim or shoot at humans or living animals."

Completely agree with Greysides.. stupid idea, leave it alone.

Airsoft guns say that too.

Tiddlypeeps

PokeyMcArrow wrote: »

Where does it say that??

It does say "Do not aim or shoot at humans or living animals."

Completely agree with Greysides.. stupid idea, leave it alone.

Which bit?
It says the max safe poundage is 30lbs here

28 Joule which equals max. 30 lbs @ 28" (ARROWS)

The LARP events that allow them to be used are listed at the bottom of the page.

These arrows have been passed for use at:
Labyrinthe
Curious Pastimes
Skullduggery
Lorien Trust

They just say don't aim at humans to cover their asses. If someone is shot with an arrow that has damaged rubber it could do some damage. You are supposed to check thoroughly for cracks in the rubber before you use them.


I have been shot with a home made version of these arrows from a distance of no more than 5 meters with a beginner recurve bow. Not sure of the poundage, I would guess somewhere between 18lbs and 22lbs. At that distance it hit me and fell to the floor, it didn't even bounce. It didn't hurt in the slightest. Those big ugly tips are not even slightly aerodynamic, because the tips are flat there is a huge amount of resistance against them in the air. You can easily grab them out of the air at any distance past 10 meters.


I can't understand how so many people are against the idea. There are more injuries at those LARP events from those big foam nerf style swords from people getting accidentally poked in the eye. If you had seen these arrows in use there is no way you would still be saying they are dangerous.



BB guns are legal in this country, you can do so much more damage with those things than you ever could with one of those arrows. BB's actually hurt for a start. Do you tell people to stay away from them too?



Saying that, there isn't a hope the OP will reach 60 - 80 meters with arrows like that.

Jasonw

Any arrow of any type that can defy gravity for a distance of 60-80 metres MUST begin their journey at a velocity that would render them unsafe to be pointed in the direction of humans. That's just simple physics.

It's a bad idea. Maybe you came here looking for a different answer than that, but there you have it. It's a bad idea!

I remember back when I was beginning archery a beginners 32lb bow with aluminium arrows would barely reach the 70mtr face with my draw length. no chance of reaching 90. But if they hit the wooden frame of the butt at 18mtrs you'ld have a hell of a job pulling them out. Also as I found out when teaching a beginners class a few years ago the same beginners bow will pierce a steel radiator. So, at the risk of repeating myself, It's a bad idea.

I'm also not sure you're correct that a BB gun is legal in this country. I'm pretty certain they're not, At least not without a licence. If they were why are they not for sale in sports shops?

Did I mention that using a bow to fire any projectile in the direction of humans was a bad idea?

greysides

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I can't understand how so many people are against the idea.

I'll admit I know nothing about LARP and my first post was visceral. However, this is also likely to be the first response of anyone hearing of any incident involving a bow and arrow. Both field archery and target archery go to great lengths to keep the participants safe.

30 lbs @ 28" is not a weak bow. Add in 2 lbs per inch of draw longer than 28" and you're getting into a respectable poundage for any archer.
(30lbs is also more than most beginers could cope with, and someone not shooting a bow properly is likely to send the arrow anywhere with the consequent danger from rebounds)


At the moment, bows are under the radar as far as legislation/licencing is concerned. It means they can be carried in a car without worry, bought easily, stored reasonably and avoids the hassle gun clubs have to go through.

Any accident resulting from LARP if reported in the media is likely to endanger this situation. Logic and proportionality is not a characteristic of the reporting media.

England lost their handgun sport due to a knee-jerk response. Anything that may possibly bring archery into any form of disrepute is to be avoided. That it was LARP and not true archery would not necessarily mean anything should the media get hold of it.

Jasonw

ruiner wrote: »

Arrow blunts are made out of rubber so you'll still get a fair smack off them if you get hit and occassionally the shafts can pass through the blunt from what I hear. Not something you want to trial and error with

Question?
When is an arrow not as straight as an arrow?

Answer:
When it leaves the bow.

This is referred to as "the archers paradox" The arrow when released is travelling at such a high velocity the the nock end "catches up" with the point making the arrow bend. Most archers will be familiar with the terms "fishtailing" and "porpoising" which is a consequence of this paradox.

I say this in order to make the following point. If you load a high poundage bow (which you would inevitably need in order to propell the type of aerodydamically inefficient projectile you mention for any distance) with a "safe" arrow then there is a high likelyhood that the shaftwill pass through it's "safe" tip making it an "unsafe" arrow.

tiddlypeeps wrote: »

would have to be insanely unlucky to do any damage to anyone with that setup

Definition of an accident, "an insanely unlucky occurance"

War Machine 539

Jasonw wrote: »

Any arrow of any type that can defy gravity for a distance of 60-80 metres MUST begin their journey at a velocity that would render them unsafe to be pointed in the direction of humans. That's just simple physics.

It's a bad idea. Maybe you came here looking for a different answer than that, but there you have it. It's a bad idea!

I remember back when I was beginning archery a beginners 32lb bow with aluminium arrows would barely reach the 70mtr face with my draw length. no chance of reaching 90. But if they hit the wooden frame of the butt at 18mtrs you'ld have a hell of a job pulling them out. Also as I found out when teaching a beginners class a few years ago the same beginners bow will pierce a steel radiator. So, at the risk of repeating myself, It's a bad idea.

I'm also not sure you're correct that a BB gun is legal in this country. I'm pretty certain they're not, At least not without a licence. If they were why are they not for sale in sports shops?

Did I mention that using a bow to fire any projectile in the direction of humans was a bad idea?

Point taken about Danger . . . . however BB guns are very legal. I suggest you take a Gander at the Airsoft forum - Its the first one on the sports list!

Tiddlypeeps

Jasonw wrote: »

Any arrow of any type that can defy gravity for a distance of 60-80 metres MUST begin their journey at a velocity that would render them unsafe to be pointed in the direction of humans. That's just simple physics.

I question your understanding of physics sir

Jasonw wrote: »

I remember back when I was beginning archery a beginners 32lb bow with aluminium arrows would barely reach the 70mtr face with my draw length. no chance of reaching 90. But if they hit the wooden frame of the butt at 18mtrs you'ld have a hell of a job pulling them out. Also as I found out when teaching a beginners class a few years ago the same beginners bow will pierce a steel radiator. So, at the risk of repeating myself, It's a bad idea.

Your talking about regular arrows here, you just cannot compare them. Regular arrows are designed to be very aerodynamic, something with a big flat head on it will not travel nearly as far and most definitely will not have the penetration power of a regular arrow. Even if these arrows could magically travel as fast as regular arrows they would just give someone a thump and maby bruise because they have absolutely no penetration power.

Jasonw wrote: »

I'm also not sure you're correct that a BB gun is legal in this country. I'm pretty certain they're not, At least not without a licence. If they were why are they not for sale in sports shops?

Airsoft is bigger than archery in Ireland
You do not need a license for them up too 1 Joule. There are airsoft shops all over the country. I have no idea why they are not for sale in sports shops, but that doesn't make them illegal.

greysides wrote: »

Any accident resulting from LARP if reported in the media is likely to endanger this situation. Logic and proportionality is not a characteristic of the reporting media.

I can totally understand that. But its a bit unfair to try to convince somebody that their hobby is dangerous when it really isn't. Your just afraid that if a freak accident did occur it would make your hobby look bad and maby jeopardize your ability to practice it.

If a LARPer came into the archery forums and started trying to convince us that the way we practice archery is dangerous and we should stop before something bad happens and it makes LARP archery look bad. They would quite quickly be told to gtfo.

Genghiz Cohen

Jasonw wrote: »

I say this in order to make the following point. If you load a high poundage bow (which you would inevitably need in order to propell the type of aerodydamically inefficient projectile you mention for any distance) with a "safe" arrow then there is a high likelyhood that the shaftwill pass through it's "safe" tip making it an "unsafe" arrow.

Stats?
Tests?
Refrences?

Tiddlypeeps

Jasonw wrote: »

Question?
I say this in order to make the following point. If you load a high poundage bow (which you would inevitably need in order to propell the type of aerodydamically inefficient projectile you mention for any distance) with a "safe" arrow then there is a high likelyhood that the shaftwill pass through it's "safe" tip making it an "unsafe" arrow.

I don't think it would be possible in any feasable way to reach 80m with an arrow safe to fire at a human, as I said already. But I have to disagree with this, you say the arrow would pass through the rubber tip. As you say the arrow fishtails, so if the tip cant travel as fast as the knock wants to the point of weakness would be on the bend so then the shaft would most likely explode in a pile of splinters or just snap in two. Which could still result in injuries, but thats why the arrows you buy have guidlines on the maximum poundage to use them with just like regular arrows.

Jasonw

judging by the last 3 post there seems to be an element of the airsoft forum coming over to the archery forum to try and pick a fight which I don't intend to indulge and so I'll end my involvement in this discussion with the following.

TP and WM: I take your point on the legality of BB guns. When I was a youngster they were illegal but obviously that has changed. I have nothing against Airsoft and wish you happy and safe shooting.

TP: I'll admit that I am not a phyisist although I am a mechanical engineer with 20+ years of experience. Before I got injured I also participated in archery to a pretty good level including internationally (yeah yeah, so it was euronations but I'm still pretty proud of it) and so I think I have a reasonable frame of reference on which to speak.

and GC...
I'd be happy to oblige with testing. I'll take my 60lb compound down from the attic and we can wrap some rubber and foam around the end of a shaft as long as.........

ah you know what, Forget it!

Merry christmas everyone.

Tiddlypeeps

Jasonw wrote: »

judging by the last 3 post there seems to be an element of the airsoft forum coming over to the archery forum to try and pick a fight which I don't intend to indulge and so I'll end my involvement in this discussion with the following.

That's pretty ignorant. I personally hate airsoft, it hurts, but I know a bit about it because I know loads of people who are into it. I have been shooting in archery for about 5 years. I also know Genghiz IRL and he is into both airsoft and archery.

Genghiz Cohen

Jasonw wrote: »

judging by the last 3 post there seems to be an element of the airsoft forum coming over to the archery forum to try and pick a fight which I don't intend to indulge and so I'll end my involvement in this discussion with the following.

Yes, picking a fight, that's what was going on.

Jasonw wrote: »

and GC...
I'd be happy to oblige with testing. I'll take my 60lb compound down from the attic and we can wrap some rubber and foam around the end of a shaft as long as.........

ah you know what, Forget it!

I can see you have an interest in talking this out reasonably.

greysides

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

I can totally understand that. But its a bit unfair to try to convince somebody that their hobby is dangerous when it really isn't.

Yes, I'll admit I don't know much about LARP but I still would have reservations.

Your just afraid that if a freak accident did occur it would make your hobby look bad and maby jeopardize your ability to practice it.

Yes, absolutely.

If a LARPer came into the archery forums and started trying to convince us that the way we practice archery is dangerous and we should stop before something bad happens and it makes LARP archery look bad. They would quite quickly be told to gtfo.

Personally I would consider whether they had a point or not. Safety being paramount. I think the vital difference here is that archery does everything to avoid having an arrow travel in the direction of a person. This proposal does the exact opposite. Even if the equipment, archery and armour, were satisfactory you still have to add in the 'paddy-factor'.

Maybe I'm too old(-ish) and I can only see the danger. I just can't see it being completely safe but then bungee-jumping isn't something I'd consider safe either.

Merry Christmas all.

Allosaur

War Machine 539 wrote: »

Point taken about Danger . . . . however BB guns are very legal. I suggest you take a Gander at the Airsoft forum - Its the first one on the sports list!

Point of clarification. An AEG is not the same as a BB gun. Two different animals. BB guns are illegal (without a license).

Allosaur

I can think of about a dozen reasons why this is a bad idae. Most of which have already been discussed. But here are another couple.

Firstly, You are not going to get 80M out of any non aerodynamic arrow regardless of the poundage you put into the bow. If it doesn't drill into the ground after a short (but amusing) journey, it'll end up who knows where, but it's a safe bet it won't be where you pointed the business end.

Secondly, you won't be shooting that thing on flat open calm ground most of the time. It's safe to say you'll most likely be shooting through wood, bushes, cover of that kind.

Thirdly, try getting a site operator to allow them without fear of invalidating their insurance.

There are so many reasons why this won't work.

o1s1n

Allosaur wrote: »

Point of clarification. An AEG is not the same as a BB gun. Two different animals. BB guns are illegal (without a license).

I was just about to post that myself

Just to add, there is no way in hell any airsoft site is going to allow you to run around with a bow.

There was a similar issue in the past with people wanting to use rubber knives. Again, the answer was no.

Either use an airsoft gun or go indulge in a different game!