Ugh!

Leonard Hofstadter

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/254523/

This car makes me want to vomit.

Just what are the board of BMW thinking? They should be sacked en masse for bringing the brand into disrepute and for destroying what the company is supposed to stand for.

Now they're talking about there being a RWD 1 series 5 door hatchback and in 2013 there will be a front wheel drive 1 series 5 door hatchback.

So there will be two cars in the same category by the same make, except one is wrong wheel drive(for a BMW) and the other at least attempts to make us think that BMWs are still driver focused cars:eek:?

Then there is going to be a 1 series estate, nothing wrong with that except it is going to be wrong wheel drive and then they have the audacity to call it a 'sporting estate':eek::(. A BMW 'sporting estate' that is front wheel drive? The only time a BMW should drive the front wheels is if it is done in conjunction with driving the rear wheels i.e. if it's AWD.

The new wrong wheel drive 1 series is and I quote 'aimed squarely at the Audi A3'. Isn't the proper wheel drive 1 series aimed at the exact same car as well?

Then to add insult to the injury, Munich wants to have a Golf GTI competitor, and what any normal person might think is that the RWD 1 series would be ideal for such a thing and why didn't BMW do this with the current 1 series.

But they want to use the wrong wheel drive platform and what will really make BMW fans vomit is the fact they want to call this a 'ti':mad:. That's a gross insult to the 2002tii, which this car if you like is a spiritual successor to.

I can live with it having the wrong number of cylinders(four rather of six) for several reasons; the 2002tii had four cylinders as well and if this is a spiritual successor to that car then it also should have four cylinders, but also because it is part of the character of a hot hatch to have a screaming four pot. The most famous BMW to have four cylinders is of course the original M3 so it isn't really logical to criticise a BMW hot hatch for having four cylinders admittedly.

But front wheel drive from the company that used to talk about worthy things like 50:50 weight distribution(only possible with RWD) and sold the current model 1 series on the premise that it had RWD 'as standard' is IMHO the commercial equivalent of treason. People will make the point that Merc went on a downward slope for ages and it didn't affect them for ages but eventually it did. All these falls from grace do catch up eventually and after a while they were forced to make cars properly once again after sufficient embarrassement was caused.

Even Audi (and as past posts by me display, I have next to no time for Audis) doesn't abuse its heritage like this. Although they were tempted to allow a FWD car have the 'S' badge they changed their minds about the 'S1' because it didn't have quattro becuase they could see the potential damage to the reputation of the 'S' brand such a move would have created.

It is quite interesting to see how BMW seem determined to destroy what made them such a success in the first place, while companies like Volvo, Saab and Merc are going back to doing what they always did best. Merc have already made the transformation with the new C and E class(back to understated elegance and expensive feeling interiors as well as making cars that are reliable once again).

Saab and especially Volvo are making all the right noises about making cars that will, once decontaminated by their former parents, go back to what these brands are meant to stand for.

I am hoping against hope that BMW will eventually see the light and change their minds, though becuase the CEO is such a bean counter, I suspect they won't and by then the damage will have been done.

EPM

And breathe:p;)

si_guru

wow... there's three minutes of my life lost.

Leonard Hofstadter

Yes I feel much better after my rant, thanks:D!

I've nothing against FWD in general, there are some decent handling FWD cars but a FWD BMW is just morally wrong.

bazz26

Nothing else really that competes with the 1 Series is RWD, the A3 sells well for Audi despite the majority of them being FWD so is having RWD in an A3 rival really necessary?

But in saying that and from reading various articles over the last few years my understanding was that the MINI brand was to expand so that it would offer a FWD replacement for the 1 Series which would compete with the A3 while still keeping the BMW RWD identity intact.

At the end of the day grey face Accountants run car companies these days and they have to answer to shareholders. FWD is cheaper than RWD and they already have a readily available FWD chassis in the Mini Clubman at their disposal. I still think they should drop the 1 Series altogether, go ahead with the new FWD car but stick a MINI badge on it.

Pdfile

now all skoda has to do is make the octivia rwd and they have the market owned... :rolleyes:

Anan1

captainspeed wrote: »

I've nothing against FWD in general, there are some decent handling FWD cars but a FWD BMW is just morally wrong.

That's just marketing telling you what to think. There are good FWD cars, good RWD cars and good AWD cars - who cares what the badge says, it's the drive that matters.

corktina

so on the whole, to sum up or paraphrase, you don't like it?








(so don't buy it!)

Leonard Hofstadter

bazz26 wrote: »

Nothing else really that competes with the 1 Series is RWD, the A3 sells well for Audi despite the majority of them being FWD so is having RWD in an A3 rival really necessary?

But in saying that and from reading various articles over the last few years my understanding was that the MINI brand was to expand so that it would offer a FWD replacement for the 1 Series which would compete with the A3 while still keeping the BMW RWD identity intact.

I suppose the key difference between Audi and BMW is that Audis always were FWD. Maybe back in the 40s and 50s they had RWD but everything over at least the past 30 years was FWD.

In the same way when one thinks of Volvo they instantly think of safety, when one thinks of BMW you think of six cylinder engines and RWD. These things are part and parcel of what makes a BMW feel like a BMW.

They have other brands at their disposal, such as Mini if they need a FWD competitor. They own the rights to amongst other things the Triumph brand(though a FWD Triumph would be equally criminal) and Reilley.#

I just can't see what need there is for this car.

The proper wheel drive 1 series competes with the A3.

The Mini competes with the A1. Every other premium segment category is catered by a BMW of some description.

What worries me is not just the talk about the 1 series being FWD, but are they going to go and start making the 3 series and 5 series FWD as well?

The 1 and 3 series share the same 'backbone' so it is not inconceivable that the generation after next 3 series could be wrong wheel drive too.

Surely I'm not the only one that thinks it is daft to have a FWD and RWD A3 competitor from the same car company with the same badge?

Of course people will point out that the 1 series is cramped and I know that FWD is more space efficient. But a BMW primarily exists becuase it is supposed to be perfection when it comes to driving pleasure.

Make the 1 series a little bigger. Redesign the chassis; BMW has some very talented engineers and huge amounts of cash, so they should have no problem with making the car more spacious yet retain RWD.

stevenmu

This is very disappointing. I've never had a BMW (but considering one for next car) and I'm not huge BMW fan, so I don't really care too much about history and tradition. But this homogenisation of the market is painful to watch. The A3/Golf/etc is a fine car, but why do BMW want to compete with it by just copying it. Why can't they compete by making something unique, something that's inherently BMW, that offers us something different to what the A3 offers. Everybody has different wants and needs, and as consumers we are far better served by having a wide variety to choose from, rather than 17 different variants on the Ford Focus.

From now on I am going to refuse to buy any car which just follows some generic template, I will demand that any car I buy has some unique or novel feature which separates it from it's competition. Or at least a car that was clearly designed to be itself, and not some copy of a generic model with a different badge stuck on the front.

mondeo

Don't annoy yourself about it too much...
Abit of variety in the brand won't do it any harm. As I read once before alot of BMW drivers had no clue their vehicles were rwd to begin with so it's not going to make a difference with the introduction of 1 fwd model.

stealthyspeeder

BMW isnt the brand it was 10-15 years ago tbh

anyway, I would never buy a car based on a badge, I would take each on its own merit (Mazda 3MPS, and Vauxhall Monaro as my last two cars). I dont understand why anyone would give a toss about cars in a range that they arent going to buy?

Maybe BMW can make it up to you with this as a peace offering?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/248975/

dr.fuzzenstein

Anan1 wrote: »

That's just marketing telling you what to think. There are good FWD cars, good RWD cars and good AWD cars - who cares what the badge says, it's the drive that matters.

No, sorry, have to jump in and disagree.:)
FWD BMW is like a vegetarian steak, it brings together two things that just should not be.
Jaguar went down that road and took a FWD, diesel, estate Mondeo and stuck a Jag badge on with superglue, it's nothing but an expensive Ford for idiots with money who think they now belong to the "boy's club" because they drive a "Jag".
Same here, just buy a Golf or a Focus if you want a good FWD hatchback, or if you want a Golf, but want to spend far too much money on it, buy an A3.
It always disappoints me to see someone who wants to go for it, but then whimps out.
Like the day I saw an Audi A8 with a badge on the boot proudly proclaiming "1.8", how it even got moving is beyond me.

dr.fuzzenstein

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Maybe BMW can make it up to you with this as a peace offering?

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/248975/

Thanks, I just saw my lunch again!:D

r3nu4l

captainspeed wrote: »

I just can't see what need there is for this car.

Well you see, that's because you don't understand market forces, whereas the folk at BMW clearly do and have spotted a nice gap.

Let me explain something to you.

As mondeo said, many BMW drivers don't even realise their car is RWD, that's because they're not 'drivers' as folk here on the Motors forum understand the word, they are people who want a BMW for the badge, nothing more (non-drivers as I call them).

Then you have the non-drivers who have heard that RWD is terrible in snow and ice and on very wet roads and that if you accelerate too hard the back end will swing out. To these people that sounds terrifying and they will never buy a BMW as a result.

So BMW have rightly realised that to compete effectively in the family hatch market that they need to open up the market a little and that RWD holds them back in that sense. Like it or not many people prefer the 'safer' FWD models and as a result BMW are losing sales that they would otherwise have and in all likelihood those sales are going mostly to Audi in the form of A3 purchases. That won't sit well with execs in BMW so the best way to stem the flow is to bite the bullet and develop a FWD model.

BMW know that drivers will still want the RWD version.

The proper wheel drive 1 series competes with the A3.

To some extent but for the reasons outlined above it just can't compete in all areas. Drivers will go for the RWD 1-series or a quattro A3, the rest go for FWD and Audi wins there, BMW don't want that

mondeo wrote: »

Don't annoy yourself about it too much...
Abit of variety in the brand won't do it any harm. As I read once before alot of BMW drivers had no clue their vehicles were rwd to begin with so it's not going to make a difference with the introduction of 1 fwd model.

Exactly.

galwaytt

captainspeed wrote: »

I suppose the key difference between Audi and BMW is that Audis always were FWD. Maybe back in the 40s and 50s they had RWD but everything over at least the past 30 years was FWD.

Audi's fwd since the '30's.

Tbh, the attraction of the 1-series, in any form of drive, escapes me.

Zubeneschamali

galwaytt wrote: »

Tbh, the attraction of the 1-series, in any form of drive, escapes me.

The ugly, slow, cramped 116i is a dog, all right but the 123d coupé is nice:

r3nu4l

galwaytt wrote: »

Tbh, the attraction of the 1-series, in any form of drive, escapes me.

There will always be a market for small family hatchbacks, that's the 'attraction'. Sure there's the A3 Focus, Golf, i30, C30, C4, 307 etc but there will always be those who want the BMW badge and BMW are giving them that choice. BMW could not afford to stay out of this market, that's why the 1-series exists.

Let's face it, some of the 3-series cars are not 'attractive' either yet there will always be those that want the badge and so buy one!

Zubeneschamali

r3nu4l wrote: »

there will always be those who want the BMW badge and BMW are giving them that choice.

Badge buyers will buy a FWD 1-series, and it won't have to be as cramped and expensive as the current RWD one.

stevenmu

BMWs badge has already lost a lot of it's value over the last 15 years or so. When I was a kid seeing a BMW driving down the road was something to get excited about, these days it's barely more noticeable than a mondeo. If they further dilute their brand with run of the mill family hatchbacks then I think that rather than gain a market segment, they stand to lose the badge snob segment entirely.

r3nu4l

stevenmu wrote: »

BMWs badge has already lost a lot of it's value over the last 15 years or so. When I was a kid seeing a BMW driving down the road was something to get excited about, these days it's barely more noticeable than a mondeo. If they further dilute their brand with run of the mill family hatchbacks then I think that rather than gain a market segment, they stand to lose the badge snob segment entirely.

As you say though, it's been heading that way for a long time. When I was 10 years old only quite well off people could afford a BMW, those who had a bit more than others but weren't wealthy could buy a used BMW. These days (thanks to car finance in many ways) you don't have to be wealthy at all to get a BMW (just willing to have a financial millstone around your neck for a few years) and the 3-series is all pervasive and completely non-exclusive.

I don't agree entirely that they will lose the snob market as the badge snobs will simply state (and already are stating) that the 1-series is for wannabes.

My boss owns the company I work for and drives a 6-series (645, tee-hee, snigger) amongst other cars and he's snobby about the 3-series saying that they are BMW wannabes, while many 3-series owners slag off the 1-series owners as 'really wanting a BMW' (I've even seen it in a few sigs on boards.ie ). So badge snobbery will still be there, it'll just move up a notch or two.

VolvoMan

captainspeed wrote: »

I suppose the key difference between Audi and BMW is that Audis always were FWD. Maybe back in the 40s and 50s they had RWD but everything over at least the past 30 years was FWD.

Audi didn't really exist before the 60's.

r3nu4l wrote: »

Well you see, that's because you don't understand market forces, whereas the folk at BMW clearly do and have spotted a nice gap.

But you can't spend so many years preaching about the benefits of RWD and then just give in. There is a difference between bowing to market pressures and selling out completely you know.

When BMW started deliberately making their cars ugly nearly a decade ago I thought they had gone a bit crazy, but now they have completely lost the plot imo.

r3nu4l

VolvoMan wrote: »

But you can't spend so many years preaching about the benefits of RWD and then just give in. There is a difference between bowing to market pressures and selling out completely you know.

Hmmm, so far as I understand they are still making and selling RWD cars, right? How exactly is offering an alternative in one model in the entire range 'selling out completely'?

Selling out completely would be the day they announce that they are no longer making RWD.

I understand how this upsets the BMW fans (I won't use the derogatory 'fanboys' phrase) but the cold reality is that if BMW don't adapt to consumer demand then they stand a real danger of not being able to compete and when you can't compete you're dead in the water, the writing's on the wall (insert cliché here) and before long you're confined to the history books.

Look at the FWD as a 'cash cow', little cost in development yet generating tons more revenue and profit. Keeps shareholders happy and allows profits to be plowed back into further development of newer RWD models.

EPM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Badge buyers will buy a FWD 1-series, and it won't have to be as cramped and expensive as the current RWD one.

Wasn't there some crazy stat recently saying the mojority of 1 series owners didnt even know the drive layout of the car? If FWD is cheaper then it makes sense for BMW. They are a business above all.

I'm considering a 1 series to replace my current car purely from the way they drive though. Don't really care if the looks make kids cry:D

Anan1

EPM wrote: »

Wasn't there some crazy stat recently saying the mojority of 1 series owners didnt even know the drive layout of the car? If FWD is cheaper then it makes sense for BMW. They are a business above all.

Just to further complicate things, it is possible to appreciate the some of the advantages of RWD in a car without even knowing what RWD is. Uncorrupted steering and a good lock will get noticed by even mechanically disinterested owners.

VolvoMan

r3nu4l wrote: »

Hmmm, so far as I understand they are still making and selling RWD cars, right? How exactly is offering an alternative in one model in the entire range 'selling out completely'?

But if this is successful, what will stop them from doing a similar thing with the 3 Series and other models in the future?

After the X1, X6 and 5 Series GT, I think BMW are capable of anything to be honest as long as they think they can get away with it.

r3nu4l

VolvoMan wrote: »

But if this is successful, what will stop them from doing a similar thing with the 3 Series and other models in the future?

After the X1, X6 and 5 Series GT, I think BMW are capable of anything to be honest as long as they think they can get away with it.

Ha ha, very true!! Touché
Ah, I can see it now, the all-new BMW FWD 0.5 series city-car
I'm laughing but now that Audi have launched the A1, the BMW equivalent is only a couple of years away!!

EPM

r3nu4l wrote: »

Ah, I can see it now, the all-new BMW FWD 0.5 series city-car
I'm laughing but now that Audi have launched the A1, the BMW equivalent is only a couple of years away!!

Utter tosh! You know it will be called the mini mini:p

Anan1

VolvoMan wrote: »

But if this is successful, what will stop them from doing a similar thing with the 3 Series and other models in the future?

After the X1, X6 and 5 Series GT, I think BMW are capable of anything to be honest as long as they think they can get away with it.

Absolutely. BMW are in business to do one thing only, and that's to make money. Heritage is of interest only insamuch as it can be used to make BMW money. If you want BMW to continue producing RWD cars then buy RWD BMWs.

Mr.David

As long as they always offer a RWD derivative I can live with it.

It's a shame it has to happen but BMW are only making what the market wants, and it is a business after all.

1. Packaging - FWD big advantage here and the current 1 series is piss poor from this perspective.

2. Weight - More and more crucial with the CO2 drive.

3. Cost - Much cheaper to engineer and produce FWD.

All in all, if 90% of the segment customers don't either know which wheels or driven or don't care then why accept the huge sacrifices listed above for the sake of the minority?

From the perspective of someone who doesn't care about FWD/RWD, the BMW will be cramped and expensive/compromised in another area to pay for the RWD in comparison to the Audi.

Yes its a shame and I know what you mean about dilution of the brand but there is still a RWD option for those of us that care

So what do you make of the fact that the next gen 3 series will have 3cyl engines in the lower derivatives? As well as the Merc and probably Audis too! :eek: