Irish : We really are bonkers ?

Leiva

Ok before I start I should say that there is no easy way to make a post with the above title , it could be a long winded mutli paragraph rant , or a bullet point summary ... I have opted for neither . So I will keep it simple .

Why oh why do we put up with what's going on around us ?

Is everyone waiting til X Factor series is over ?
Or their 1st pay slip in Jan 2012 ?

Maybe we are just numb .

RGDATA!

mixednuts wrote: »

Ok before I start I should say that there is no easy way to make a post with the above title , it could be a long winded mutli paragraph rant , or a bullet point summary ... I have opted for neither . So I will keep it simple .

Why oh why do we put up with what's going on around us ?

Is everyone waiting til X Factor series is over ?
Or their 1st pay slip in Jan 2012 ?

Maybe we are just numb .

serious question - what are you calling for/waiting for?

Rabble Rabble

RGDATA! wrote: »

serious question - what are you calling for/waiting for?

He is posting about it on the internet.

Leiva

RGDATA! wrote: »

serious question - what are you calling for/waiting for?

Good question .. Suppose I'm waiting for a proper alternative to vote for .
A new fresh faced leader to tell the Irish people some proper plans and inspire hope ,this is something no other party has done .

As for the general public ... I dont wish for violence but where is the movement of people ?
Why ain't those (in the majority) that had nothing to do with the situation we find ourselves in marching ?

sollar

Well i hope that foy guy that took the action is out of a job asap.

amacachi

mixednuts wrote: »

Good question .. Suppose I'm waiting for a proper alternative to vote for .

Worked in America...

Sea Sharp

It's because for the most part, nobody has really been hit bad yet.
When people can't afford electricity or food they'll start rioting.

Sungodbr

the state always wins over the common souls

puffdragon

Perhaps we should start the march ? I do spend a lot of time just complaining and posting about the situation, and everyone can see the mire of politics is going nowhere , and the media just sit back and describe the water.

This thread has made me think that theirs only two things for it , 1 , I just capitulate, or 2, do something. Yes thats it your right I am numb, numb thinking about it , I did say to my teenage son yesterday that I thought there would be a march of some kind this week, I can sense a Greek Like protest coming on!!

RichardAnd

Why do the Irish accept things so readily well consider the following:

1. Are things really that bad? The answer is, for most, no not really. 90% of people who had jobs 4 years ago still have them. The tax increases haven't been too high and to be fair, things have gotten cheaper which balances it out somewhat.
2. Irish people HATE change. Our society is still very much what it was 90 years ago. Our political system has changed little since the civil war and realistically, I don't see this ever changing.
3. Is there really an alternative? It's all very well to say we want an alternative to cuts and taxes but, as of yet, no one has suggested anything to this effect. Sure, we have the shell to sea and the smart economy nonsense but I think, deep down, most people know that austerity kinda of has to happen whether they wish it to or not.

We live in very interesting times indeed but in my most honest opinion, Ireland will not undergo the radical changes that are discussed on these boards. I would love to see a new, enlightened era for this country that I love but it simply won't happen. Things are not bad enough yet and, really, I don't think it will reach the point where that will happen.

puffdragon

Sea Sharp wrote: »

It's because for the most part, nobody has really been hit bad yet.
When people can't afford electricity or food they'll start rioting.

They cant!!

ilovesleep

We need a war

puffdragon

The radical change that we need will/can not be achieved without force, but the use of "arms" to me is completely out of the question, what it boils down to is getting enough numbers on to the streets to overwhelm the guards and cause national gridlock, no rioting, no violence, just the power of numbers to convince those in power to work for the people and the country and not for the banks or Europe, is that too simple!!

tudlytops

because people like to moan, but to do something more then hold a poster up and shout something stupid is to much like hard work.

We do not know how to work together....in order to achieve something.

We also don't know that sometimes things have to get worse before they get better...

ilovesleep

puffdragon wrote: »

The radical change that we need will/can not be achieved without force, but the use of "arms" to me is completely out of the question, what it boils down to is getting enough numbers on to the streets to overwhelm the guards and cause national gridlock, no rioting, no violence, just the power of numbers to convince those in power to work for the people and the country and not for the banks or Europe, is that too simple!!

I would love that. thousands of people to take to the streets and cause a gridlock and bring everything to a halt. no unions either. I believe many people dont understand whats happening - people need to know in simple terms what happened, what is happening and what it means.

puffdragon

Yep thats right "no unions" , too many issues, and enough peaceful people to keep the radicals at bay,,

puffdragon

I cant tell you how much I'd love this to happen, surely if the whole country was brought to a standstill for a day then someone would listen!!, Perhaps, and I dont mean to be confrontational at all here but, perhaps answer to the original posters question," why dosent somone do something" is , because you havent done anything!!

tudlytops

puffdragon wrote: »

I cant tell you how much I'd love this to happen, surely if the whole country was brought to a standstill for a day then someone would listen!!, Perhaps, and I dont mean to be confrontational at all here but, perhaps answer to the original posters question," why dosent somone do something" is , because you havent done anything!!

Just imagine what this would do..

The students aren't happy, so they all drop out, all of them and go sign on....can you imagine the chaos...

Everyone that is working, stops, no one goes to work....

All the unemployed that say they can't afford food and heating, get up everyday and head for their local welfare office and set up camp for the day, every day...

Etc...

people would be heard all right but the country would fall apart in the process.

zig

mixednuts wrote: »

Ok before I start I should say that there is no easy way to make a post with the above title , it could be a long winded mutli paragraph rant , or a bullet point summary ... I have opted for neither . So I will keep it simple .

Why oh why do we put up with what's going on around us ?

Is everyone waiting til X Factor series is over ?
Or their 1st pay slip in Jan 2012 ?

Maybe we are just numb .

When you have a middle class you dont feel pain, people will accept whats going on because they still have luxuries. There is a section of the population who are in massive debt and cant break even, as this population grows, you will see the tolerance drop.
You're comparing our situation to past or present situations all over the world where people got together and 'rose up'. Alot of that is because they were either living in poverty, or were oppressed, we are neither.


I went out and protested ,I presume you did too!!

femur61

Say a lot of people are more interested in the X Factor final. It amazes me how disinterested people are in politics. A lot of people still vote on history and not what is hppening now. I don't think they realise there are 3 more budgets to come with cuts.

looksee

What is the point of protesting on the streets? So-called peaceful protests will be hijacked by rent-a-rabble and the guards will be accused of heavy handed response. Individual gardai are just employees and workers with mortgages, and have just the same problems as the rest of us.

Until there is an attitude change at all levels of society we will continue to have the same problems.

How many people will continue to vote on a 'family tradition' basis?

How many people vote for the politician who offers the most sweeties to locals, rather than the person who will best serve the country?

How many state and semi state organisations have been found to be corrupt in some way?

How many people would go along with (ie not report) someone who was fiddling welfare or the tax man.

How many people would be glad to get a bargain from someone in the pub?

How many people pull sickies off work, or school or college?

No doubt people will come on and say 'I don't do any of those things' and nor do I, but evidently there are still way too many people who do.

Qualitymark

Sea Sharp wrote: »

It's because for the most part, nobody has really been hit bad yet.
When people can't afford electricity or food they'll start rioting.

My impression is that people have been hit, but are ashamed to speak about it. People are numb with horror, juggling mortgage, fuel payments, food bills; reading the ads for jobs in Toronto and thinking "If the house goes..."; two unsaleable cars sitting in the driveway outside while the kids huddle together in one bed with a Super Ser heating the room.

Mister men

I've been to almost every single protest in the last two years and i'll admit it's disheartening to see such apathy out there. The government are hoping that with this latest raft of body blows to the lower classes that they can keep the middle classes from revolting up againest them. They know the lower classes in our society don't by and large bother voting so it's a no brainer for them. However the situation is so dire i don't think it will make a difference as the middle classes are only beginning to feel the pain really kick in now. A lot of middle income earners that i know have been living and getting by on their saving these last couple of years and that can't go on for obvious reasons. I think ( hope ) that we will see wide spread anger on our streets these next few months and a breakdown of the system as we know to be replaced with real leadership and a new why forward.

ilovesleep

I think something what irish people should do is to take over all those empty houses in empty housing estates. Move into them and become squatters - they are ours now.

dan_d

Hmm. There's something in that last idea - any first time buyers out there eager to bags a house for themselves??

Seriously, though, in answer to the question on this thread - firstly I think that while it's an absolute indictment of what went on here in the last decade that the IMF have had to come in, I for one am slightly relieved. Finally there is somebody holding our political and banking classes to account.Finally there is someone looking over their shoulder and asking them difficult questions, and demanding answers.

Secondly - the budget. I just don't understand what alternative people think we have.We pay ourselves too much money. I'm not advocating a return to famine times or anything, but shaving a euro or 2 off the minimum wage could go a very long way to reducing the cost of living. Now, there are things I just don't understand - the raising of the VAT....but we simply can't go on the way we have been.

Thirdly there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that our social benefit system needs a very serious and in-depth overhaul.We need to start cutting people off. Seriously.5+ years on the dole, with no proven disability...I'm sorry, why should you be getting money??FAS is all well and good, but at some point people have to stop training and start working.

If I was to protest against anything, it would be the following:

• Nobody has been held accountable for what our banks did.Still.
• Not one incentive has been put in place to create jobs.
• I'm still reading stories about the HSE and slush funds, but knowing that I'll face a wait of hours on end if I have to go to the A&E paid for by taxes
• There's still no accountability in the Dail
• I don't believe Irish politics is going to change at all, even after all this

And that would just be some of what I get angry about...this has been going on 2 years now, and there are still no visible changes anywhere, other than I'm unemployed and everyone is paying more taxes.

The problem is that not enough people are angry about that stuff. They're angry about paying more taxes, but they don't really care about the level of accountability out there, about the fact that nothing has really changed, or will change, in our rotten political system. And until that happens, I just don't see myself out protesting, to be honest.I'll make those points to any politicians calling to my door.

Atlantic Dawn

The government we currently have in power are stubborn and will not resign or call an election no matter what action the people take, it is pointless in protesting or taking any action along those lines as they are not for moving. Next election is what people are waiting for to make their choice.

xflyer

Looksee's list pretty much hits the nail on the head. I came to the conclusion a while ago that we Irish lack civic pride. In general we aren't patriotic enough. We don't think about Ireland as a whole, it's me, it's the village, the town the county, rarely the country. To make it worse the Republicans have long hijacked patriotism, we were so busy resenting the British that no one noticed the country was being run into the ground by our own people.

It's particularly noticeable outside Dublin. It's all about their locality, their county. That's how you get the Jackie Healy Rae's. A village idiot but he got elected to the Dail because he looks after local interests. So it is with them all. The whole system is corrupt right up to the top.

What's happened now is that people have finally begun to realise it. But will anything change? I doubt it.

It seems to me the best and the brightest and most adventurous emigrated over the years. Those that remain are either too tolerant of their own exploitation or have been sucked into corrupt system.

Supposedly the Greeks when rioting chanted, 'We are not Irish'. Says it all really.

MrMatisse

This sums up what has happened

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQMwlVmztNs

[MOD]Really-Stressed, you're posting nothing but videos. Banned for a week while you find something to actually say.[/MOD]

sollar

To my shame i'm one of the masses that voted fianna fail because my family always voted fianna fail.

But i am so disgusted with both fianna fail and the fact that we have been lumbered with private banking debt that i am going to vote sinn fein in the general election.

I say to people we can vote for parties that will roll over and play it safe or we can take a risk and vote for parties that will bring this banking farce to a head and force a restructuring of this banking debt.

puffdragon

tudlytops wrote: »

Just imagine what this would do..

The students aren't happy, so they all drop out, all of them and go sign on....can you imagine the chaos...

Everyone that is working, stops, no one goes to work....

All the unemployed that say they can't afford food and heating, get up everyday and head for their local welfare office and set up camp for the day, every day...

Etc...

people would be heard all right but the country would fall apart in the process.

Doomsday senario, just one day of protest would not result in any of this!!

peasant

Politics in Ireland have not been for "the good of the country" for decades. Politics were always there to serve the good of the few / the individual interest. Even Joe Soap in the street only turned to politcs when they wanted THEIR pothole fixed or THEIR hospital improved ...other than that everybody tried to fiddle the system as good as the could (get away with) on the quiet.

Well, now that general attitude has backfired. The whole nation was fiddled with in the interst of the bankers and other money people.
But no-one really wants to cause too much of a fuss about it ...because if one started digging for moral rectitude, one would find that not only is it the bankers/regualtors/developers/ the gubbernement that have acted recklessly.

Nope ...there would be minor tax evasion, undeclared incomes, welfare fiddles, untaxed cars, VRT unpaid, etc, etc to be found in almost every household in this island ...if one started shouting and digging.

So ...nobody does want to cause a fuss, in order not to be found out themselves.

That's it in a nutshell ...IMO anyway.

zig

dan_d wrote: »

If I was to protest against anything, it would be the following:

• Nobody has been held accountable for what our banks did.Still.
• Not one incentive has been put in place to create jobs.
• I'm still reading stories about the HSE and slush funds, but knowing that I'll face a wait of hours on end if I have to go to the A&E paid for by taxes
• There's still no accountability in the Dail
• I don't believe Irish politics is going to change at all, even after all this

And that would just be some of what I get angry about...this has been going on 2 years now, and there are still no visible changes anywhere, other than I'm unemployed and everyone is paying more taxes.

The problem is that not enough people are angry about that stuff. They're angry about paying more taxes, but they don't really care about the level of accountability out there, about the fact that nothing has really changed, or will change, in our rotten political system. And until that happens, I just don't see myself out protesting, to be honest.I'll make those points to any politicians calling to my door.

That list is what the protests have been about , its when you go to one you finally realise other people (that arent on forums) share the same anger. I just think people couldnt be bothered protesting, there's really not much else too it, all the excuses in world just don't cut it tbh. I hear excuses from one extreme to the other. "Im not going cause of the Unions", and then "im not going cause of the Socialist Party"(who are completely against the unions). "Im not going cause there's going to be a election anyway".

Maybe its cause people can vent on forums like this, they get it out of their system and dont feel the need to have their voice heard.

maninasia

Large parts of the population have been bought off in plain sight, public workers and social welfare recipients in the main. They haven't really lost much, a few % here and there, none of the permanent staff have got laid off, no social welfare recipients have been struck off after being on it for years. The people who lost their jobs were mostly from trades or uneducated or younger, not a coherent political group with union back up and not a powerful influential group.

ilovesleep

I'll put my hands up and say i never understood about nama and the bank gaurantee until recently - until it was too late. Two years ago was the time to go out and make a change. Not now that we are deep in pile of sh1t. There are no options. No hope now. Im sure there were many more like me that never understood until it was to late. Our government should have been brought down and removed from power two years ago.

Scofflaw

peasant wrote: »

Politics in Ireland have not been for "the good of the country" for decades. Politics were always there to serve the good of the few / the individual interest. Even Joe Soap in the street only turned to politcs when they wanted THEIR pothole fixed or THEIR hospital improved ...other than that everybody tried to fiddle the system as good as the could (get away with) on the quiet.

Well, now that general attitude has backfired. The whole nation was fiddled with in the interst of the bankers and other money people.
But no-one really wants to cause too much of a fuss about it ...because if one started digging for moral rectitude, one would find that not only is it the bankers/regualtors/developers/ the gubbernement that have acted recklessly.

Nope ...there would be minor tax evasion, undeclared incomes, welfare fiddles, untaxed cars, VRT unpaid, etc, etc to be found in almost every household in this island ...if one started shouting and digging.

So ...nobody does want to cause a fuss, in order not to be found out themselves.

That's it in a nutshell ...IMO anyway.

It's not quite as dirty as that, but as a country we took the lowered income taxes, we took the higher minimum wage, we took the higher welfare payments - those few that needed them before the crisis - took the higher PS pay, took out the larger mortgages, borrowed to buy a bigger 4WD and take more exotic holidays because that's what our neighbours were doing...

There is a sense of shame involved, as a result of that complicity. Not everyone feels it, and indeed not everyone should, but the majority of people I think feel strongly that we "lost the run of ourselves" - accountants with 10 houses, taxi drivers doing their Christmas shopping in New York, ordinary builders bidding millions for land in the arse end of nowhere, families on average salaries taking out loans for half a million. We got used to talking about a million as if it was some kind of ordinary figure, rather than 30 years of average salary.

How much of the country was involved is a vexed question. To listen to some people you'd think the whole thing happened somewhere else entirely, while the Irish people stood by in amazement as some foreigners had a huge party and then stuck them with the bill. The figures for house prices, the figures for mortgages in arrears, the fact that everyone either took out well over a prudent mortgage or knows someone who did, the fact that nearly everyone knows people who were borrowing to fund their lifestyles, or, again, knows people who were - all of that, though, tells quite a different story, which is that the majority of the country was involved in the same giant credit splurge that blew up the banks. We're the people the Irish banks lent money to, and the money they borrowed from foreign banks was lent to us.

We may be angry with the government for having led us up the garden path, but I think you'll find a lot of people are ashamed for having been so willing to follow them. Unlike the Greek government, the Irish government didn't lie about what was happening - it boasted about it, boasted about how our boom enabled us to afford French style spending on American style low taxes - and let's face it, the majority of the country appears to have wallowed in that feeling of being rich, being special, deserving it all, having it all.

Once it all ended, it seems obvious to everyone that it was always going to - that house prices couldn't really continue to climb forever, that at some point the money would have to be paid back. And the more one feels that, the more one is angry that the government encouraged and exacerbated the bubble - but its hard for a lot of people to decouple that from the sense of shame that they believed it.

Naturally enough, there are people who will offer whatever narrative allows people to pretend to have been the victims of outside forces - because if one can manage that pretence, then the anger is politically useful to those outside the usual political mainstream, and the more people that can be sold those narratives, the more anger can be tapped. It would be nice to think that the anger might be tapped in a useful and constructive way, but I haven't really seen that so far.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maninasia

ilovesleep wrote: »

I'll put my hands up and say i never understood about nama and the bank gaurantee until recently - until it was too late. Two years ago was the time to go out and make a change. Not now that we are deep in pile of sh1t. There are no options. No hope now. Im sure there were many more like me that never understood until it was to late. Our government should have been brought down and removed from power two years ago.

I believe you are correct in this assessment. It seems people sleepwalked through the whole thing until it was too late. Blame the people, blame the media, blame the government. Nice to see some honest though.

Hayte

Most people didn't know how NAMA worked back when the acronym was first coined, myself included. What it did wasn't really explained very well and there were large pieces of the puzzle that were missing so that it was impossible for even financial experts to make informed comment about the NAMA strategy. We still don't know just how bad the losses were from Anglo and Irish Nationwide. Now I think it is easier to talk about what NAMA did and didn't do right because we have the benefit of hindsight.

I don't think that it is fair to say that we sleepwalked through a crisis although it certainly looks that way now. I suppose that many people do what they do and have enough to deal with in their own lives. Thats why you trust your bank not to misappropriate your savings, you trust your lawyer to draft your mortgage documentation and do so in a way that protects you, you trust your doctor in all matters concerning your health and you trust your government not to run the state into the ground.

I guess the lesson learned is that if you aren't watchful, the state's interests at the very least can become averse to the citizen's. I think with the wikileaks cables it is becoming very clear to me that government (generally) is beholden to vested interests other than those of its citizens. It is often corporate and usually obtained through a process similar to manufacturing consent. We see that in how we allow Shell to essentially take over Nigeria or in one of the most despicable reveals I've ever seen, watch as the US government sweeps under the rug PMC DynCorp + employees that have been implicated in child sex slavery (more than once).

This is not reported on front pages or in a manner where you see it for what it is - an absolute tragedy perpetrated for the enrichment and security of an elite few, often at the expense of those who cannot afford to bribe themselves out of disenfranchisement (which is most individuals).

Saganist

mixednuts wrote: »

Good question .. Suppose I'm waiting for a proper alternative to vote for .
A new fresh faced leader to tell the Irish people some proper plans and inspire hope ,this is something no other party has done .

As for the general public ... I dont wish for violence but where is the movement of people ?
Why ain't those (in the majority) that had nothing to do with the situation we find ourselves in marching ?

http://www.aneki.com/income_countries.html

Fentdog84

RichardAnd wrote: »

Why do the Irish accept things so readily well consider the following:

1. Are things really that bad? The answer is, for most, no not really. 90% of people who had jobs 4 years ago still have them. The tax increases haven't been too high and to be fair, things have gotten cheaper which balances it out somewhat.
2. Irish people HATE change. Our society is still very much what it was 90 years ago. Our political system has changed little since the civil war and realistically, I don't see this ever changing.
3. Is there really an alternative? It's all very well to say we want an alternative to cuts and taxes but, as of yet, no one has suggested anything to this effect. Sure, we have the shell to sea and the smart economy nonsense but I think, deep down, most people know that austerity kinda of has to happen whether they wish it to or not.

We live in very interesting times indeed but in my most honest opinion, Ireland will not undergo the radical changes that are discussed on these boards. I would love to see a new, enlightened era for this country that I love but it simply won't happen. Things are not bad enough yet and, really, I don't think it will reach the point where that will happen.

1. Maybe not for you(yet) but it is very bad for a lot of people, and guess what? Its going to get much much worse. Defaults, house repossesions, IMF getting their 8 billion a year(if they actually end up giving us the money at all), no money to pay public services, I could go on
2. Were devalera & Michael collins corrupt liars? Things have changed. We got arrogant & greedy
3. Ridiculous question. Of course there is an alternative. Start with getting rid of those politicians & bankers who shafted us. Then default & leave the euro. Its the only chance we got.