Pilots watches?

Flashwatches

As I am new here, I just wanted to find out what kind of watches you guys like. So I thought I start off with pilots watches, what pilots style do you guys like?


Are you a traditional type with a Fleiger model, this one from Stowa one of the 5 companies that made the originals, I quite like these myself.



Or the Steinhart Fleiger with the B-uhr dial




or are you a more modern type with this B&R-01 that takes it's styling straight from the dials in a cock pit?



or maybe this, also from B&R which almost mixes the two styles?

heavyballs

is this advertising allowed,anyway they all look very cheap and c*ap,that my serious honest opinion

Flashwatches

heavyballs wrote: »

is this advertising allowed,anyway they all look very cheap and c*ap,that my serious honest opinion

Hi Heavyballs
Not advertising just discussion. Ok you do not like the ones above, what pilots style do you like?

emo72

ive always loved pilot watches myself. i have to get one sometime. the plain simple design, with the large case is a big attraction.

Wibbs

I'm a fan of pilots watches though more a vintage man myself. These would be faves of mine.



Longines Lindbergh hour angle from the 30's.

Another Longines;



Czech airforce watch again from the 30's



Omega 6/B



Hanhart Chronograph



Zenith version of the so called 1928 airforce pattern, rumoured to have been designed by Hermann Goering. I have the center second one.

I owned a B-uhr years ago. Got it for a song at the time. Lovely watch. Totally impractical though. Over 50mm across IIRC and nearly a cm thick to boot.

HDMI

I think the Bell & Ross is a little out of place in the choices above, it is maybe 5 or 6 times more expensive than the others and really does not deservered to be classed as a cheap and crap watch, it is a very highly rated watch and has a lot of followers.

The problem with these watches is that there are so many cheap versions of these designs on the market that it just devalues the looks. Vintage pilots are awesome but becoming silly money, anything marked as military or pilot just seems to drive the price up.

Wibbs

HDMI wrote: »

Vintage pilots are awesome but becoming silly money, anything marked as military or pilot just seems to drive the price up.

True and they used to be so much cheaper. I got my B-uhr for 280 sterling in the early 90's. That said they're still arguably better value than new homages/rip offs. With the exception of the Longines hour angle in my last post(15-20 even 30 grand for a good condition original large one), the rest are "cheap" by comparison to many modern offerings.

From top to bottom; No 2 longines you could get for around 2000 euro(the equivalent Eterna with the same provenance half that), an Omega 6/B anywhere from 500-900 depending on condition, the Hanhart would be more pricey around the 3-5000 mark(ditto for the equivalent Glashutte), and the Zenith around the 1500 mark(the centre second version being an extra grand if you can find one). Though with the last design you can get lesser marques, like Helvetia for a lot less, say 800 quid. Even a B-uhr the "king" of that stuff(if you have a wrist like a fencepost:D) vary in price. The IWC is mad money(20k plus) but you could get a Laco for a lot less. Here's one for 4000 dollars;


So IMH if I had a few grand to spend on a pilots watch I'd be more likely to go for a vintage one. Rarer, with actual history and much more investment potential.

flutered

i got a laco pocket watch recently, dates 1904, my intend to convert it to a ww, with a see thro back, am i mad, sorry how mad am i as all wis are a little anyway.

Wibbs

I figure so long as it's not a rare PW then go for it. That way it'll be used, not stuck in a drawer.

Flashwatches

Wibbs wrote: »

.........Another Longines;




....

Hi Wibbs,
Not sure if you are interested or not, but I believe Eddie at Timefactors is planning on re-making one like this. Not sure when it's out but I've seen his tech drawings of it so I know it is in the works.

Regards

flutered

Wibbs wrote: »

I figure so long as it's not a rare PW then go for it. That way it'll be used, not stuck in a drawer.

i do not know as to its rareity, it cost $14 + $ shipping on fleabay us, then another $6 for the middleman to post it over, its in very good condition, runs and keeps time, a fraction of what a chineese duplicate would cost, if i can convince myself to take some pics i will post them up.

Wibbs

@ Flashwatches, Cool they're a nice design and deserve a rethink. Big watch too. well by todays bling standards maybe not that big, but 40mm was huuuge at the time. It looks big on my wrist, though mine is of the more girlie persuasion. The case design is interesting. It looks like it was pressure moulded around a die in some way. Great movement(well there are two), very accurate. My old one was steady on +/- 20 secs a day. With decent balance work I reckon 5/10 secs a day +/- wouldnt be beyond it(my 1916 Longines would be around that). I gave my one to a good mate a few years back as a B'day pressie as he had admired it, so it's now his. He's not a watch nut by any means but he wears it almost daily. I figured I've only one wrist(well two but not for watches:D) so rather than it sitting in a drawer it's better with someone actually appreciating it.

Wibbs

flutered wrote: »

i do not know as to its rareity, it cost $14 + $ shipping on fleabay us, then another $6 for the middleman to post it over, its in very good condition, runs and keeps time, a fraction of what a chineese duplicate would cost, if i can convince myself to take some pics i will post them up.

20 quid?? Ya jammy bastid. I would like to see some piccies alright. If it's got some cool swan neck regulation etc then maybe hold off on the wristwatch conversion. Though still IMHO, unless it's as rare as rocking horse poo, I figure better it's converted and used and loved and worn, than stuck in a drawer because it's not practical. Plus conversion doesnt mean you have to get rid of the original casing., just move the movement and dial to a new chassis so to speak.

Monty Burnz

Flashwatches wrote: »

Hi Wibbs,
Not sure if you are interested or not, but I believe Eddie at Timefactors is planning on re-making one like this. Not sure when it's out but I've seen his tech drawings of it so I know it is in the works.

Regards

It was in the works years ago I think it was scrapped. I saw a nice original at a watch fair recently but the guy wanted €2500 for it. :eek:

The Stowas in the OP are very tasty imho.

Wibbs

Here's one on this page for under 2 grand Irish/Euro http://finertimes.com/asp/watches/query.asp?Title=Military+Watches&TypeCode=9&Where=%28tblUsers.Active%3Dtrue%29+AND+%28tblInventory.Archive%3DFalse%29+AND+%28tblInventory.FTUse%3DTrue%29+AND+%28%28%28tblTransactions.Status%29+Is+Null+Or+%28tblTransactions.Status%29%3D%27Pending%27%29%29+AND+%28TypeCode%3D9%29&Page=3

2500 was just a little rich IMHO. I've seen them go on fleabay for 1500. I've seen them go for under 1000 in sothebys etc horological auctions.

Wibbs

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The Stowas in the OP are very tasty imho.

+1 and a lot more practical than the originals to boot.

Nolimits

I love the German flieger style, so simple and classic, I just took delivery of a Stowa Icarus a few weeks ago I would like to go back for one of their B-Uhrs at a later date, to anyone who said they are cheap crap watches, you don't have a clue what your talking about.

Flashwatches

Nolimits wrote: »

I love the German flieger style, so simple and classic, I just took delivery of a Stowa Icarus a few weeks ago I would like to go back for one of their B-Uhrs at a later date, to anyone who said they are cheap crap watches, you don't have a clue what your talking about.

Yes that Stowa fleiger is one of my favourites, I am waiting for Jeorg to bring back the Eta6497 version with the centre seconds hand. Its a real stunner. Or I'm hoping he uses his new in-house movement in it.

emo72

Flashwatches wrote: »

Yes that Stowa fleiger is one of my favourites, I am waiting for Jeorg to bring back the Eta6497 version with the centre seconds hand. Its a real stunner. Or I'm hoping he uses his new in-house movement in it.

hi flash, what exactly is the definition of a flieger? is it the plain black face and the way its layed out? whats the story with the triangle at 12? beautiful watch either way. i particularly love the crown. its on my wish list either way:)

Wibbs

It was a RLM(German imperial ministry) design spec that the suppliers had to follow. There were dial three variants IIRC(for pilots well navigators really) The arrow is common enough on mil spec stuff. Apparently so you can see which way is up at a glance.

The overall specs for the B-Uhr were: Case diameter of 55 mm with fixed lugs, large oversized crown for setting/winding with gloves*. Marked on the side and back with the reg number FL 23883 (FL = flight, 23 = navigation). Radium luminous hands and markings*. Hacking large pocketwatch movement*. Breguet spring*. Fully tested chronometer spec.

the makers were Stowa, IWC, Lange & Sohne Laco and Wempe.

I can say they tick like big ben. Keep you awake


*all shared with the Omega/Zenith earlier style pilots watches.

Flashwatches

Thanks Wibbs thats a great explanation of the fliegers, the other feature they had was a long leather strap so it could be worn over the sleeve of a jacket.
There is a good article on Fleigers here http://www.calibremagazine.com/node/305

Here is a copy of the specs from the RLM

Flashwatches

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It was in the works years ago I think it was scrapped. ....

I think it is back on then as the drawings Eddie posted up were on the 5 Dec.

http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=147066

Wibbs

Flashwatches wrote: »

Thanks Wibbs thats a great explanation of the fliegers, the other feature they had was a long leather strap so it could be worn over the sleeve of a jacket.

Like this;

Yea they were never really intended to be worn as a watch as such(ditto with the Longines Czech and the 1928 patterns). They were a tool and were signed in and out like any other military equipment. Most pilots at the time would have worn tiny by todays standards daily watches. Even some tool watches for pilots/navigators were tiny. Especially the American ones. The later longines Weems is tiny. Barely 28mm across. It followed national lines a lot of the time. The Germans went for the biggest as did the Italians, the US the smallest and the British were in the middle. The Japanese had a beauty;

Seikosha Pilots watch. Smaller than the B-Uhr with a movement ripped off from Zenith, it was more like the 30's german watches. I'd love one of those but mini mortgage time, at best 10k, probably more.

The B-uhrs just too big to be practical today.

Unless you're 6"8 with wrists to match.

Monty Burnz

Flashwatches wrote: »

I think it is back on then as the drawings Eddie posted up were on the 5 Dec.

http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=147066

Excellent

Flashwatches

Wibbs wrote: »

Like this;
..

That's a great photo

Marcusm

Wibbs wrote: »

Like this;

Yea they were never really intended to be worn as a watch as such(ditto with the Longines Czech and the 1928 patterns). They were a tool and were signed in and out like any other military equipment. Most pilots at the time would have worn tiny by todays standards daily watches. Even some tool watches for pilots/navigators were tiny. Especially the American ones. The later longines Weems is tiny. Barely 28mm across. It followed national lines a lot of the time. The Germans went for the biggest as did the Italians, the US the smallest and the British were in the middle. The Japanese had a beauty;

Seikosha Pilots watch. Smaller than the B-Uhr with a movement ripped off from Zenith, it was more like the 30's german watches. I'd love one of those but mini mortgage time, at best 10k, probably more.

The B-uhrs just too big to be practical today.

Unless you're 6"8 with wrists to match.

What's the size of the B-Uhrs; it doesn't look to be much different from my IWC Big Pilot's which I have regularly worn for weeks at a time. I'm only 6'5" so you don't need to be a 6'8" freak!

Wibbs

Marcusm wrote: »

What's the size of the B-Uhrs; it doesn't look to be much different from my IWC Big Pilot's which I have regularly worn for weeks at a time. I'm only 6'5" so you don't need to be a 6'8" freak!

It's very different to an IWC big pilot. Like bedlam said nearly 10mm bigger and that's just across the case, not including lugs or crown. Plus the lugs go pretty much straight 10mm out either side from the case, so lug to lug it's damn near 70mm across and there's little downward curve to it. Then you have the case thickness itself. It's 24mm deep. it stands near 2 and half cms proud of your wrist. Even on a large male wrist it's huge.



Of course it is as it was never meant as a wristwatch as such. It's purely a flight instrument meant to be worn over a bulky flightsuit. I had one. Now I've a weedy wrist for a guy, but I can get away with an IWC big pilot. The B-uhr? even on the most bulky of my mates, where an average size watch would be lost, it still looked huge.

Wibbs

You could go mad and get one of the W-SS observation watches at 65 mm across :eek:

On the bottom. The top is an IWC B-uhr.

Actually if I had one again I might just wear at is was meant, over whatever jacket I was wearing. Start a trend!

Manic Moran

I must say, after my first session practising IFR holds, I very quickly realised that if I don't have a nice big-buttoned stopwatch built into the panel, I need something on my wrist which has a timer. The FAA's regulations only require a clock with a sweep second hand or digital with seconds display, you can work with it, but a timer is far less taxing when you're trying to fiddle with four things at once.

Fortunately, my requirements for my watch to meet military demands also works quite well for flying demands, though not perfectly. I'm using an el-cheapo Ironman 3!

NTM

Wibbs

Manic Moran wrote: »

I must say, after my first session practising IFR holds,

I've a few rellies who were pilots. Including a couple in WW2 and another in Vietnam(and inc one of the first guys to fly the other way across the Atlantic). It was my ambition as a kid, but sadly as a specky four eyed person the military was a never gonna happen situation. One of them explained IFR and VFR to me when I was a kid. The manual explains them as instrument flight rules and visual flight rules. He suggested that when the chips were down it often translated into "I Follow Roads" and "Visually Follow Roads"

I very quickly realised that if I don't have a nice big-buttoned stopwatch built into the panel, I need something on my wrist which has a timer. The FAA's regulations only require a clock with a sweep second hand or digital with seconds display, you can work with it, but a timer is far less taxing when you're trying to fiddle with four things at once.

Yep a timer or a watch with a chrono function would make it easier. Analogue much faster acquisition than digital too. A lot of the early so called pilots watches were as much use as a chocolate teapot. What with their subsecond dials(the 30s IWC's were a good example). At the very least you need a centre second. The addition of a rotating bezel marker another handy feature. On top of that you needed a very accurate watch for timing.

The first real decent and well thought out such timepiece was the Longines Weems hour angle. Developed by a Lieutenant Commander Weems and used(on his famous flight), developed further and then championed by certain Mr Lindbergh. Where you could compare your local time to a radio time signal and work out very accurately where you were(if you were handy with totting up maths in your head:)). The next truly useful watches were the ones the Luftwaffe fighter pilots used, the Hanhart and Glashutte Chronographs. Very useful in the battle of Britain as they had (very)limited fuel over England so had to keep a close eye on that. Actually after the Americans, the Germans were at the forefront of development on this pilot watch score. Particularly with the latter's military.

Fortunately, my requirements for my watch to meet military demands also works quite well for flying demands, though not perfectly. I'm using an el-cheapo Ironman 3!

yea the days of official issued watches seem to be numbered alright. Most of the guys on the ground use g-shocks and Ironmans like yourself. The US military have a long history of mil spec watches, some real quality items too and still keep a couple of official issued watches ye mil types can still get in the PX's. IE the marathon navigator(stocker and yale were another make). Black plastic style watches, yes, but make no mistake, nice quality, very clear with no BS ostentation and really tough in use

I got mine through a marine I met on the razz years ago. He thought I was a tad daft, given he was an Ironman user like yourself. Decent skin and fair play to him for getting it for me and it was only something like 60 bucks(when online prices were nearer 200). I did ask him to look for another marathon, the chronometer;

Apparently it was a special order and he'd have to stump up 1500 bucks up front, so after a bit of trying on his part he suggested I try a different hobby. I respectfully agreed. US Marines seem to have that special gift of telling you to eff off incredibly politely

Flashwatches

Hey Wibbs
Do you know if the Irish military has any history with watches of any type? Were they ever issued anything or was our government always stingy with this sort of thing?

Wibbs

I don't believe so. There may have been local unit private purchases, but beyond that I doubt it. I'd reckon it was pretty much all private purchase stuff. I did ask my late uncle who served with the Irish air corp from 43 to 47 and he had no recollection of any issued watches anyway. I'd love to be corrected though.

Flashwatches

Yeh I'd love to find out too if anything was issued. And with the state of the economy now I don't think they will be getting anything issued anytime soon. :rolleyes: