Irish Political Journalists

Denerick

It seems to me that Ireland has some excellent journalists - look no further than Vincent Browne. While I may disagree with him on most political issues, he was terrific on budget night for TV3 and he is an excellent interrogator. I love it when he takes on Joan Burton, pleading for her to give a solid response.

Fintan O'Toole is a complete tool (LOL. I've trademarked that pun by the way so you'll have to pay me royalties if you want to use it) More than any other Irish journalist he has lent credence to the myth that the Irish people are essentially virtuous and that they were only led astray by a few corrupt politicians. Bah humbug! Everyone overlooks the fact that this shower of gob****es (The Irish people) consistently voted for that shower of gob****es (Fianna Fáil) leaving us in the mess we are in. O'Toole manages to soothe our collective responsibility in a way that is unpalatable. The only way we will achieve some level of political virtue is if we have a complete renewal of the contract between citizen and state - not a feudal compact where citizen receives 'entitlements' in exchange for taxation but a system whereby the citizen holds his legislature to account by tackling corruption and gombeenism where it really matters - by turning off dating shows with Ray Foley (designed to dilute our critical faculties and lead us well and truly down the Roman circus trap... ie, 'bread and circuses') and turning on current affairs programmes, by reading, by debate - most importantly rational debate, not this half witted national conversation we get on radio call in shows, were idiots mouth off whatever petty little irrelevancy that happens to enter their muddling mediocre mind's at that particular time.

Do you think Irish political journalists are of a high standard? We have some decent radio journalists too - Damian Kiberd for example - and even if you love him or hate him, Mc Williams has a prescience lacking in much of this country. Do you think our journalists are deprecating enough of our national character? (Which in my opinion is cowardly, liable to find scapegoats, and addicted to the welfare of their tiny fief, regardless of the welfare of a far greater kingdom) In many ways a good journalist holds his countrymen to account just as much as his government. I don't think we really get this in Ireland. Like everything else, we're very prepared to apportion blame to a tiny elite in Dublin, and forget the madness that gripped this country for two decades, when pensioners from Connemara bought 'second homes' in Bulgaria and Montenegro at 50 times their real value...

Ireland has an oversupply of whingers at the moment, but too few misanthropes. I worry that without misanthropes we're never really going to even understand the question, never mind the answer.

Cavehill Red

Irish pol corrs are WAY too close to their subjects and historically always have been. It's the very rare one who breaks ranks and tells the truth, and even then only sporadically.
Look and see how many Irish political journalists are married or related to the political class. Effectively, they are nowhere near antagonistic enough to serve their purpose of reporting without fear or favour to the public, as they are of the same ilk as those they write about.

Denerick

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Irish pol corrs are WAY too close to their subjects and historically always have been. It's the very rare one who breaks ranks and tells the truth, and even then only sporadically.
Look and see how many Irish political journalists are married or related to the political class. Effectively, they are nowhere near antagonistic enough to serve their purpose of reporting without fear or favour to the public, as they are of the same ilk as those they write about.

I largely agree with you, but you cannot say that of Vincent Browne for example. The man eats politicians for fun. That is not to say that 'off the record' he cannot be nice and friendly with him. It adds to his calibre as a journalist I would say.

Fo Real

I find Charlie Bird extremely egocentric. I remember he was punched by a few yobs during the "Love Ulster" riots in Dublin 2006 and was called an "Orange bástard" for being a Protestant. He then went onto the main evening news, looking disheveled and beaten, and made the whole story about himself. "Baww poor me....!"

Also when Charles Haughey died, Mr. Bird did a report on his personal relationship with the former Taoiseach. "He said I was his favourite journalist" Charlie recalled in the report. Why somebody would boast about being close to Haughey is beyond me. The man was a criminal.

Then Charlie was made RTÉ's Washington correspondent in 2009, but returned back to Dublin prematurely before his contract was up because nobody knew or cared about him stateside. He was unable to call his politcal buddies up to arrange a chat over there. He couldn't bear to be out of the limelight.

I agree 100% with Cavehill Red's post above. Irish political journalists are way too close to their subjects. For me, Charlie Bird is the epitome of this.

Monty Burnz

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Irish pol corrs are WAY too close to their subjects and historically always have been. It's the very rare one who breaks ranks and tells the truth, and even then only sporadically.

Spot on. They are terrified of the consequences of rocking the boat.

Bob the Builder

You should never rock the boat in Ireland. After all, it's only a small island. God help us if we rocked the boat. We might sink and Europe would have to save us.

It's a bad day when you have to listen to the english news to hear that your country is bringing in the IMF. And it's an even worse day, when the IMF come in and piss all over you.

meglome

Fo Real wrote: »

I find Charlie Bird extremely egocentric. I remember he was punched by a few yobs during the "Love Ulster" riots in Dublin 2006 and was called an "Orange bástard" for being a Protestant. He then went onto the main evening news, looking disheveled and beaten, and made the whole story about himself. "Baww poor me....!"

Well goshy imagine him being shocked that people tried to punch his face in while calling him an orange bastard. The cheek of the man. Some of us didn't know or care what his religion was as it had never come into his job. Did you think that through before you wrote it.

Dub.

Anyone got any idea why Bird and Lee decided to opt out of journalism in Ireland just as it got massively interesting?

meglome

Dub. wrote: »

Anyone got any idea why Bird and Lee decided to opt out of journalism in Ireland just as it got massively interesting?

It looks like Lee got very sick of our political system very fast. Pity as I think he actually cared.

maynooth_rules

Just take Brendan O'Connor as an example. This fool is given a front page article on Irelands best selling Sunday paper. Just 6 months ago he ran an article saying that Brian Lenihan is the only man to get us out of our problems. How could any educated journalist write such rubbish is beyond me

Monty Burnz

meglome wrote: »

It looks like Lee got very sick of our political system very fast. Pity as I think he actually cared.

That's the really worrying thing for me. If someone who comes in from outside and wants to make a difference gives up in disgust within a year, our systems must be a huge mess.

Monty Burnz

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Just take Brendan O'Connor as an example. This fool is given a front page article on Irelands best selling Sunday paper. Just 6 months ago he ran an article saying that Brian Lenihan is the only man to get us out of our problems. How could any educated journalist write such rubbish is beyond me

O'Connor is not a serious journalist, and he does write with an agenda. Remember how 'smart and ballsy' O'Connor wrote this article when the dogs on the street knew the game was up for the Irish property market?

It's so laughable that the last time it came up on Boards, I had to prove to someone it wasn't written as satire...

SO THE sky is falling in again. The Irish stock market is apparently in meltdown, because of the housing market, which is also apparently in meltdown. The level of property horror stories is at an all-time high and everyone is tripping over each other to predict even greater gloom than the next guy.
Tell you what, I think I know what I'd be doing if I had money, and if I wasn't already massively over-exposed to the property market by virtue of owning a reasonable home. I'd be buying property. In fact, I might do it anyway. You don't even need money to buy property these days. Imagine if you walked into the bank and said, "Listen, guys. I want to gamble a million on the stock market. I have 100 grand myself, will you guys lend me 900 grand at really low rates and I'll pay you back over 40 years? In fact I won't even pay off the principal, I'll just pay off the interest." They'd laugh you out of it. But substitute gambling on the property market for gambling on the stock market and they'll fall over themselves to give it to you.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-smart-ballsy-guys-are-buying-up-property-right-now-1047118.html

later12

Irish political journalists are particularly bad. They seem to have an unnatural fear of bold statements, rigorous debate, or giving too much information. An exception would be Vincent Browne, unfortunately his own personal politics are a bit hard to swallow for most voters, myself included. To be honest, the only Irish political journalists I can bring myself to read and watch are Miriam Lord and Sharon Ni Bheaolain - one for her political humour, and the other for her looks. Guess which is which.

And can someone please, please get Dan O Brien off the TV.
The man is very sharp and intelligent in his written opinion, but resembles a rabbit in the headlights when quizzed on the likes of Prime Time or Vincent Browne.

Anonymous1987

While I admire Vincent Browne's pursuit for a straight answer he does seem to chose his targets rather selectively at times and certainly not without his own bias and strongly held views. Still I would rate him highly as a journalist for refusing to allow politicians to make factless statements.

Permabear

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Monty Burnz

donegalfella wrote: »

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Very good points.

later12

donegalfella wrote: »

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In fairness, unless there is another article that you intended to link to, Browne was not defending Sadaam. He was making the point about the Iraqi invasion's basis in international law, and US hypocrisy. I do think that Browne has an agenda and is economically insane, but i don't think you've found a particularly good example. According to international law, Sadaam really was the Iraqi president. Vincent Browne did call him a tyrant and accuse him of manipulating the electorate in that same article.

Browne has never asked David Begg one single question about his role as a director of the Central Bank since 1995. Why?

IThese non executive directors had limited responsibility, in fairness. Another person who sat on that board was the chick lit novelist Deirdre Purcell for christ's sake - responsible for such great Bus Eireann reads as Jesus and Billy Are Off to Barcelona, for example. Incidentally she also sat on the board of the finanical regulator - and if anything that is the one I would be most concerned about since they were the people who failed to ensure implementation of directives handed down by the central Bank and the ECB

Monty Burnz

later10 wrote: »

These non executive directors had limited responsibility, in fairness. Another person who sat on that board was the chick lit novelist Deirdre Purcell for christ's sake - responsible for such great Bus Eireann reads as Jesus and Billy Are Off to Barcelona, for example. Incidentally she also sat on the board of the finanical regulator

That is absolutely astonishing. I'm stunned to hear that. What the hell would she ever know about financial regulation? Is this another Fianna Failure croney appointment?

I'm just stunned.

later12

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That is absolutely astonishing. I'm stunned to hear that. What the hell would she ever know about financial regulation? Is this another Fianna Failure croney appointment?

I'm just stunned.

I know; I think the point was to have people as non executives who represented different strains of Irish society: the unions (Begg), the arts (Purcell), law (G. Danaher), finance (Kevin Cardiff) and so on. Who actually came up with that hare brained idea, or whoever put Purcell on the board of the regulator, i do not know.

Edit: It was Brian cowen. lol.

Sir Oxman

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That is absolutely astonishing. I'm stunned to hear that. What the hell would she ever know about financial regulation? Is this another Fianna Failure croney appointment?

I'm just stunned.

Me too, but I shouldn't be.
Didn't the blonde that Ahern B was having sexual intercourse with get a spot on the Consumer Council - her being the well-known campaigner for consumer rights :rolleyes: rather than being the blonde who Ahern B was sleeping with.

PS Didn't see much in the budget about the bountiful supply of quangos being cut drastically either

As for the topic, the fact that many in Ireland had to hear through foreign media about the impending IMF call-in says it all.

Monty Burnz

later10 wrote: »

I know; I think the point was to have people as non executives who represented different strains of Irish society: the unions (Begg), the arts (Purcell), law (G. Danaher), finance (Kevin Cardiff) and so on. Who actually came up with that hair brained idea, or whoever put Purcell on the board of the regulator, i do not know.

Edit: It was Brian cowen. lol.

Holy crap. "Let's have input from the chick-lit community into the technical matter of financial regulation." I bet she had great input into the colour paper the reports were printed on.

Thanks for that one, Brian. :eek:

Denerick

donegalfella wrote: »

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A few points. I highly doubt that Browne thought Saddam was a 'nice guy'. He contrasts quite nicely with the likes of George Galloway, who was an admirer of Saddam, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. Rather, like you and me, he opposed the war in Iraq and thus felt (As I do) that the trial of Saddam Hussein was undertaken by a regime essentially installed by the Americans, who waged an unjust and immoral war against a nation who had nothing whatsoever got to do with the supposed Causus Belli (9/11 and WMDs)

Browne's entrenched pro-union, anti-capitalist, anti-American world view completely blinds him to objectivity or realism. Union bosses regularly appear on his show to spout their propaganda—when has Browne ever asked them any tough questions? Around €50 billion of the IMF/EU bailout funds are committed to funding the deficit over the next 4-5 years, a good proportion of which has been created by the union-engineered 60 percent increase in public wages since 2000. But all we hear from Browne are tirades about how FF and the bankers have brought the country to their knees. Why nothing about the special interests who worked tirelessly to jack up spending to astronomical heights?

The unavoidable reality is that Sean FitzPatrick, Michael Fingleton, Bertie Ahern, Brian Cowen, David Begg, and Jack O'Connor all played huge roles in creating the mess that culminated with Ireland's overwhelming debt and IMF/EU bailout. All of the above have cost the Irish taxpayer billions with their shenanigans over the past decade. So it is interesting to see which of the above still get the red-carpet treatment from the media and which are now personae non gratae.

Note, too, that in all his rabid attacks on the banking system, Browne has never asked David Begg one single question about his role as a director of the Central Bank since 1995. Why?

Agreed. I'm not saying the man doesn't have flaws. I'm saying that he is an excellent interrogator and that he doesn't shy away from difficult questions. He made mincemeat of the irrelevantly far left Joe Higgins on budget night, as he did of those two right wing twats (One of them was the vacuous and sickly John Mc Guirk) The man can rip people apart. We need more journalists like him.

Anonymous1987

donegalfella wrote: »

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Really? I would think it shows how idealogical consistency in general is removed from reality . Browne is unashamedly left wing, his studio is painted in a soviet red FFS. His criticism is clearly biased from his view of the world but it is also obvious.

He fails terribly at objectivity and as you've pointed out he selectively excludes some people and groups from his target but he reserves his fiercest criticism for those who have failed to be publicly accountable, mostly Fianna Fail politicians. This is something no other Irish journalist seems capable of. For this alone we can almost forgive his other failings.

Fo Real

meglome wrote: »

Well goshy imagine him being shocked that people tried to punch his face in while calling him an orange bastard. The cheek of the man. Some of us didn't know or care what his religion was as it had never come into his job. Did you think that through before you wrote it.

Are you trying to make me out as anti-Protestant? Anyone who vaguely knows me will tell you how anti-Republican I am. I just want peace on this island regardless of which flag is flying over it. I thought the thugs who caused troble during the Love Ulster march were idiots, like all other rioters that are the cancer of political demonstrations in this country. However, I take issue with Charlie Bird's self-pitying, egocentric brand of journalism. His report that day was more about himself than the actual events on O'Connell St.

Where is our Jeremy Paxman? Vinnie Browne is probably the closest but as already mentioned, his personal politcal leanings cloud his interviewing.

The Frontline, arguably the county's premier current affairs show, is a joke. The audience is infested with party plants who use the programme as a platform to heckle or get up onto their soapbox and toe the party line. Anyone else on it just seems very uneducated - "Line up all the politcians and have them shot!" :rolleyes:

Permabear

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Valmont

donegalfella wrote: »

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Unfortunately, I think that myopic view of events has already taken a strong foothold in the collective (!) interpretation of the last fifteen years. It doesn't bode well for how can we avoid these mistakes in the future if we don't make a completely objective analysis of them now?

Just wait until 2015, FF will be waiting consolingly like an abusive ex telling us they have changed, having forced all the unpopular decisions onto the next government.

Anonymous1987

donegalfella wrote: »

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Valmont wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think that myopic view of events has already taken a strong foothold in the collective (!) interpretation of the last fifteen years. It doesn't bode well for how can we avoid these mistakes in the future if we don't make a completely objective analysis of them now?

I have to agree with both of you here.

Valmont wrote: »

Just wait until 2015, FF will be waiting consolingly like an abusive ex telling us they have changed, having forced all the unpopular decisions onto the next government.

No need to wait, sure aren't they telling us that now.

later12

Originally Posted by Valmont
Just wait until 2015, FF will be waiting consolingly like an abusive ex telling us they have changed, having forced all the unpopular decisions onto the next government.

The question is have we changed. I'm pretty sure Fianna Fail, have learned, and shall continue to learn their lesson. However, given that most people seem to accept no blame either for their collective or personal roles in the debt crisis, what's to say that we are not the abusive ex?

And perhaps like all abusive ex's, we shall again woo Fianna Fail back into our arms, make love to her, rage at her admittedly spectacular stupidity, and when things break down, as they inevitably do, beat her senseless crying "look at what you made me do!!!!"

Just who is the abusive ex here?

DeVore

Part of the problem is that the freedom of information act is our equivalent of the Ministry of Truth. Its about the suppression of information rather then its freedom.

The primary problem is our defamation laws. The journos are terrified and more than that their editors are scared stiff of losing the farm because a defamation case can cost easily millions (particularly if you sleep walk nude :P )

We're more controlled that China and in recent weeks I think people are finally waking up to how important sites like Boards and others are because the difference between what is discussed here and what is reflected by RTE and the "traditional press". Its chilling how some things have been simply excluded from broadcast on political grounds because.


DeV.

Denerick

DeVore wrote: »

We're more controlled that China and in recent weeks I think people are finally waking up to how important sites like Boards and others are because the difference between what is discussed here and what is reflected by RTE and the "traditional press". Its chilling how some things have been simply excluded from broadcast on political grounds because.


DeV.

Such as?

There may be some foundation to your comment but unfortunately there is a degree of exaggeration concerning the perceived 'freedom' of our press.

P.S. A comparison with China has to be verging on some subsidiary of Godwins Law.

Anonymous1987

later10 wrote: »

Just who is the abusive ex here?

At the risk of being overly philosophical about it, isn't this symptomatic of the interplay between democracy and capitalism? I made the point here that the electorate effectively demanded a housing bubble. I guess we are doomed to repeat this forever .

Denerick

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

At the risk of being overly philosophical about it, isn't this symptomatic of the interplay between democracy and capitalism? I made the point here that the electorate effectively demanded a housing bubble. I guess we are doomed to repeat this forever .

Most people are content and willing to forget their crazy investments in Bulgaria (Purchasing holiday apartments at Irish prices even though the average annual income there is around a tenth of the Irish one...) So yeah. We're idiots. Whats worse is that we consistently demand to pass the buck to someone else. Its a lot easier to blame a tiny elite for all your troubles. Any time I think of this I can just picture Pat Rabbite - the Queen of faux outrage - ripping into the poor old minister for ceíli's, Pat Carey.

Monty Burnz

Denerick wrote: »

Such as?

There may be some foundation to your comment but unfortunately there is a degree of exaggeration concerning the perceived 'freedom' of our press.

P.S. A comparison with China has to be verging on some subsidiary of Godwins Law.

If you speak to most journalists, particularly those in a position to break national politcal stories or dig up stuff that the establishment want to keep hidden, they will tell you that the defamation/libel laws in this country make it impossible to do your job.

I regard libel law reform as being a key pillar (alongside political reform) of change required to prevent a repeat of our catastrophic economic bubble.

However, like political reform, the political classes will fight tooth and nail against it as they are the primary beneficiaries.

Sand

I find the standards of Irish journalism to be exceptionally low when it comes to politics. Most analysis tends to be highly personal, focusing almost entirely on personal traits of particular politicians, rumours the reporter has heard or the potential drama of some argument between TDs or a recounting of some event where one politician made a fool of another. Stephen Collins in the IT is an example of this sort of nonsense.

Its the sort of stuff youd expect from a writer in some magazine for teen girls, gossiping about a boyband/girlband back stage drama. They are hopelessly incapable of providing any analysis or interpretation that rises above "he said/she said".

Fintan O Toole, in fairness, can write a good polemic when the mood strikes him. Browne is relatively strong, but whilst hes good at badgering people, he lacks the knowledge to catch people out. I was dissapointed by his interview with Lenihan a few months back - Lenihan was talking absolute nonsense, and whilst Browne flailed around, he seemed incapable of landing a single blow on Lenny. Browne didnt know what he was talking about, and whilst he could channel the anger of the nation, he simply made Lenny look good because Browne was furious and Lenny was never caught out once - despite talking complete ****e.

Irish journalists seem to lack the knowledge or native wit to understand whats going on, to know even instinctively what makes sense and when someone is simply waffling. Theyre just overwhelmed when someone who makes more than they do picks up the phone and gives them a story.

I was struck at how the media greeted the news of Richard Brutons heave against Enda Kenny back in the summer. You could almost taste the relief from the media....finally they could stop straining to understand bond yields, GDP vs. GNP and banking capital ratios, where what you knew was important. They could get back to a good old fashioned gossipfest of backbiting and bitching Irish style, where who you knew was the thing.

oppenheimer1

Denerick wrote: »

A few points. I highly doubt that Browne thought Saddam was a 'nice guy'. He contrasts quite nicely with the likes of George Galloway, who was an admirer of Saddam, Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez. Rather, like you and me, he opposed the war in Iraq and thus felt (As I do) that the trial of Saddam Hussein was undertaken by a regime essentially installed by the Americans, who waged an unjust and immoral war against a nation who had nothing whatsoever got to do with the supposed Causus Belli (9/11 and WMDs)




Agreed. I'm not saying the man doesn't have flaws. I'm saying that he is an excellent interrogator and that he doesn't shy away from difficult questions. He made mincemeat of the irrelevantly far left Joe Higgins on budget night, as he did of those two right wing twats (One of them was the vacuous and sickly John Mc Guirk) The man can rip people apart. We need more journalists like him.

I disagree with your assessment of VB. Higgins is too fat to the left for Browne and he showed his prejudice against him in that interview. Brownes political leanings are too far well known for him to be taken seriously as either an interrogator or a journalist as his musings will always be coloured by his known political slant. He is an opinion writer perhaps but not a fair journalist.

I agree however with your assessment of John McGuirk, I almost spat out my tea when I saw him being interviewed for his opinion. (thinking my opinion is worth just as much as his).. considering the controversy he was embroiled in when he was in University with Ógra FF. One man I'm glad didn't get his ego stroked by becoming president of TCDSU.