minimum wage

qc3

Can someone help with this problem.
A friend is working in a local garage, earning minimum wage.
He has been told that he is losing E1 per hour because of the budget. Surely this was meant for a new employee entering the work force.
He works 30 Hrs per week, so will lose 30 euro of his wage.
Is this legal for his employer to do this.

Thanks in advance.

MagicSean

The reduction of the minimum wage doesn't require employers to lower the wage. It is their choice. It depends on your friends employment contract.

techguy

I would say the employer is entitled to drop to the new minimum..

If you look back at when the minimum wage was increasing annually, employees got the increase.

If your argument were to hold true then your friend shouldn't of gotten any previous increases.. did he/she?

When does the new rate come into effect? New year or immediately?

qc3

techguy wrote: »

I would say the employer is entitled to drop to the new minimum..

If you look back at when the minimum wage was increasing annually, employees got the increase.

If your argument were to hold true then your friend shouldn't of gotten any previous increases.. did he/she?

When does the new rate come into effect? New year or immediately?

In the New year.

Getting a rise when the Rate went up was fair. If not, they would have been employed below the minimum rate.
My point been that when he started, He was getting 8.65 per Hr.
Now he is to work for 7.65 per Hr.
Should every employer tell their workers that they are losing E1 per Hr .
Just wondering if it is leagal on the employers part or is he taking them for a ride.

techguy

The minimum wage is there to prevent employers from "taking people for a ride".

Yes, it's legal unless there is a contract that says otherwise.. getting a drop in pay is pretty discomforting but it's pretty much the norm these days.

He should probably be thankful that he has a job that pays minimum wage.. so many would kill for that!

JonnyTwoCombs

I was under the impression the new mininum wage was only going to apply to new employees.

GerardKeating

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

I was under the impression the new mininum wage was only going to apply to new employees.

That's because the Government are spinning it that way, but they have no control over much in the private (or any) sector , even before the IMF bail-out...

Dempo1

qc3 wrote: »

Can someone help with this problem.
A friend is working in a local garage, earning minimum wage.
He has been told that he is losing E1 per hour because of the budget. Surely this was meant for a new employee entering the work force.
He works 30 Hrs per week, so will lose 30 euro of his wage.
Is this legal for his employer to do this.

Thanks in advance.

Unfortunately this is the very example why this reduction in the minimum wage is going to cause chaos. The spirit of the proposed reduction was allegedly to encourage employment not permit unscrupulous employers reduced current wages to existing employee's, indeed the Government have suggested "not promised", this new reduction will not affect current employee's which of course is complete bollox.

I get a sense the new government are determined to invoke the proposed decrease in the minimum wage, fingers crossed for all those concerned!

johnnyskeleton

Dempo1 wrote: »

Unfortunately this is the very example why this reduction in the minimum wage is going to cause chaos. The spirit of the proposed reduction was allegedly to encourage employment not permit unscrupulous employers reduced current wages to existing employee's, indeed the Government have suggested "not promised", this new reduction will not affect current employee's which of course is complete bollox.

I get a sense the new government are determined to invoke the proposed decrease in the minimum wage, fingers crossed for all those concerned!

Why is it unscrupulous to pay someone the minimum wage (whatever that may be)? If the employee is unhappy with the change, they can negotiate with their employer or alternatively just quit and do something else.

Dempo1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why is it unscrupulous to pay someone the minimum wage (whatever that may be)? If the employee is unhappy with the change, they can negotiate with their employer or alternatively just quit and do something else.

So you would be quite happy for your employer to turn around and reduce your wage? Negotiate? seems to me there will be little negotiation for thousands of people on the current minimum wage. As for quiting, clearly your missing the point! quit to do what? there are no alternative jobs and this is my point, Unscrupulous employers abusing the new proposed minimum wage!

johnnyskeleton

Dempo1 wrote: »

So you would be quite happy for your employer to turn around and reduce your wage? Negotiate? seems to me there will be little negotiation for thousands of people on the current minimum wage. As for quiting, clearly your missing the point! quit to do what? there are no alternative jobs and this is my point, Unscrupulous employers abusing the new proposed minimum wage!

So your definition of an unscruplous employer is one who does something that his employees are not happy with?

The fact that there are no alternative jobs is equally the point - supply far exceeds demand that those prices. The price (of labour) needs to come down in order to increase demand.

Dempo1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So your definition of an unscruplous employer is one who does something that his employees are not happy with?

The fact that there are no alternative jobs is equally the point - supply far exceeds demand that those prices. The price (of labour) needs to come down in order to increase demand.

No, my description of a unscrupulous employer is one who will abuse the proposes minimum wage to reduce their employee's earnings, particularly at a time when the cost of living is increasing despite the ridiculous argument to the contrary. I am intrigued at this absurd argument about the costs of Labour needing to come down to increase demand? demand for what exactly, Cheap labour?. It is clear only 4% of those in employment are paid the minimum wage, traditionally in security, Catering, Retail, warehousing etc. Where exactly do you demand requiring change? retail is dead unless of course your seeking an opportunity at Tescos and even this company has contracted out its HR function and at reduced rates. Hotel/Catering, well this is in crisis with 90% of hotels already stating they have reduced staff or reduced hours. Lets see, security, well I suppose it is anticipated there will be a greater need for securing ghost estates, unfinished building sites and finally warehousing, currently paying minimum rates and historically temporary contracts but who knows along with the fast food sector our economy is going to be saved!

I sadly think not!

johnnyskeleton

Dempo1 wrote: »

No, my description of a unscrupulous employer is one who will abuse the proposes minimum wage to reduce their employee's earnings, particularly at a time when the cost of living is increasing despite the ridiculous argument to the contrary.

So it is unscrupulous and an abuse of the process to apply the law of the land? The law is that there is a minimum hourly rate that an employer has to pay, above that people can negotiate their own wages. Paying someone the minimum wage and then reducing it in line with reductions in the minimum wage makes a lot of sense.

Dempo1 wrote: »

I am intrigued at this absurd argument about the costs of Labour needing to come down to increase demand? demand for what exactly, Cheap labour?. It is clear only 4% of those in employment are paid the minimum wage, traditionally in security, Catering, Retail, warehousing etc. Where exactly do you demand requiring change?

We have driven off most of our manufacturing and other low skilled jobs. We are now in a position where we believe that the jobs we should be doing are working in shops, or acting as security men. No one seems to want to make anything - that's for the Germans and the Chinese to do. We can't attract these jobs to Ireland with such high rates of minimum wages. I wish it were not so, but that is economic reality.

Dempo1

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So it is unscrupulous and an abuse of the process to apply the law of the land? The law is that there is a minimum hourly rate that an employer has to pay, above that people can negotiate their own wages. Paying someone the minimum wage and then reducing it in line with reductions in the minimum wage makes a lot of sense.



We have driven off most of our manufacturing and other low skilled jobs. We are now in a position where we believe that the jobs we should be doing are working in shops, or acting as security men. No one seems to want to make anything - that's for the Germans and the Chinese to do. We can't attract these jobs to Ireland with such high rates of minimum wages. I wish it were not so, but that is economic reality.

My Point is that the Government clearly intended the proposed new minimum wage to be directed at NEW EMPLOYEE'S/NOT EXISTING ONE'S. It is abundantly clear from the OP that this notion is pie in the sky. I am all for employers working with employee's to reduce costs, in fact i am in an industry were there has been many such agreements. Unfortunately we now face the real prospect of employers seeking any means possible to reduce wages further whilst having little intention of creating employment.

I am not sure about the argument about us driving out manufacturing as i believe this industry has long been gone from our economy replaced primarily by IT, Pharmaceutical etc industries that for the most pay above the minimum wage. Unfortunately companies like Dell took the tax breaks and left when they ran out. I fear the next departures will be High Tech companies where i do agree wages are UN competitive but these are high end graduate jobs. We will agree to disagree but i just don't get the argument reducing the minimum wage is going to make the slightest difference.

MagicSean

For existing employers it is more like retaining employees than creating new jobs. Many businesses are broke and without reducing the wage of existing employees they may be forced to lat people off. In any case reducing the wage bill in any company will allow them to compete better which is what Irish businesses need to do.

prinz

It's up to the employer tbh. It's perfectly legal for them to reduce the wages in line with the new minimum. Doesn't seem fair but tbh people on wages above the minimum wages have faced cuts etc too.

I have heard of both happening tbh, I know some employers who are determined to keep their minimum wage employees on the old rate, and I know of others operating successfully who are lowering it because they can, not because they actually need to financially, and giving staff the 'like it or leave it' routine. To me, that is abusing the situation, law of the land or not. I can understand the need to lower it if your business isn't doing well, you need to cut costs etc and in that scenario it's fair enough.

GerardKeating

Dempo1 wrote: »

No, my description of a unscrupulous employer is one who will abuse the proposes minimum wage to reduce their employee's earnings, particularly at a time when the cost of living is increasing despite the ridiculous argument to the contrary. I am intrigued at this absurd argument about the costs of Labour needing to come down to increase demand? demand for what exactly, Cheap labour?. It is clear only 4% of those in employment are paid the minimum wage, traditionally in security, Catering, Retail, warehousing etc. Where exactly do you demand requiring change? retail is dead unless of course your seeking an opportunity at Tescos and even this company has contracted out its HR function and at reduced rates. Hotel/Catering, well this is in crisis with 90% of hotels already stating they have reduced staff or reduced hours. Lets see, security, well I suppose it is anticipated there will be a greater need for securing ghost estates, unfinished building sites and finally warehousing, currently paying minimum rates and historically temporary contracts but who knows along with the fast food sector our economy is going to be saved!

I sadly think not!

I the past, when the minimum wage was raised, all employers on the minimum wage got an increase, not just new hires.

Why should this reduction be any different/

Dempo1

k_mac wrote: »

For existing employers it is more like retaining employees than creating new jobs. Many businesses are broke and without reducing the wage of existing employees they may be forced to lat people off. In any case reducing the wage bill in any company will allow them to compete better which is what Irish businesses need to do.

I am just curious! the sectors that mainly pay the minimum wage, retail, catering security, non skilled etc? what exactly do they need to compete better for? more security? more tescos? (think we have quite enough), catering? (can't fill restaurants/hotels as it is and its nothing to do with minimum rates), non skilled? well perhaps sweat shops may re locate from India, Thailand etc an as for retail, barely surviving as it is, i doubt a few bob off a shops payroll weekly will make a damned bit of difference to non existent consumer spending!

Dempo1

prinz wrote: »

It's up to the employer tbh. It's perfectly legal for them to reduce the wages in line with the new minimum. Doesn't seem fair but tbh people on wages above the minimum wages have faced cuts etc too.

Here in lies the problem, it is not at all clear whether it will be legal to reduce existing employees wages. Our wonderful government have been at pains to stress the new lower rate is for new hires! somehow i doubt this will happen. At least the new government have made their intentions clear, this rate cut will be invoked! some common sense prevails thank god!

MagicSean

Dempo1 wrote: »

I am just curious! the sectors that mainly pay the minimum wage, retail, catering security, non skilled etc? what exactly do they need to compete better for? more security? more tescos? (think we have quite enough), catering? (can't fill restaurants/hotels as it is and its nothing to do with minimum rates), non skilled? well perhaps sweat shops may re locate from India, Thailand etc an as for retail, barely surviving as it is, i doubt a few bob off a shops payroll weekly will make a damned bit of difference to non existent consumer spending!

Maybe it's a good thing you don't run one so.

Dempo1

k_mac wrote: »

Maybe it's a good thing you don't run one so.

I actually do as it happens (Hotel/Catering) and have seen first hand the abuses that take place in this sector, never mind the minimum wage, its a good week if you get paid at all. My sector has been crucified not by the minimum wage but over supplier, Plonker developers building hotels in ludicrous locations and on the back of tax breaks, little or no tourism not helped by the absurd failte Ireland and a complete collapse of consumer spending not helped by enormous unemployment and o, I almost forget less money in consumers pockets (made a whole lot worse with this proposed minimum wage cut and the rest of the nonsense the government has proposed in the recent budget)

yourpics

if your contract states your rate of pay, it is illegal for your employer to reduce your wage.