More good news from Canada

deirdre_dub

The Canadian military establishes dress rules for its trans members.

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays-paper/Dress+rules+established+transsexuals+military/3942963/story.html

Right - that's it - I'm emigrating!

liah

Holy crap. I didn't realize the military also pays for sex change operations. Go Canada!

Always happy to see news like this. Do emigrate, I may be biased but it's a fantastic country with a lot of opportunities.. just keep to British Columbia so the weather's nice year round. :pac:

SugarHigh

Does anyone know why they pay for sex change operations? I can understand the Canadian NHS paying but why would it fall on the military to do so?

liah

SugarHigh wrote: »

Does anyone know why they pay for sex change operations? I can understand the Canadian NHS paying but why would it fall on the military to do so?

Only making wild guesses on this one but it could have to do with the idea that they want their soldiers at top condition, mentally and physically, and if someone needs the procedure to be mentally and/or physically sound, I can see why they would fund it. Getting people to join the army in Canada isn't exactly easy, so they do whatever they can to keep who applies.

I am actually fairly surprised that they do it via military, though.

NotYetKatie

It's great to see that Canada is not only supporting Transgender rights, but advocating them. Still though, I like Ireland because It actually became a bit of an apathetic country when it comes to stuff like this, as it should.

SugarHigh

liah wrote: »

Only making wild guesses on this one but it could have to do with the idea that they want their soldiers at top condition, mentally and physically, and if someone needs the procedure to be mentally and/or physically sound, I can see why they would fund it. Getting people to join the army in Canada isn't exactly easy, so they do whatever they can to keep who applies.

I am actually fairly surprised that they do it via military, though.

Does the Canadian army really have trouble recruiting. I thought they had a very fixed army size that could only be changed by congress?

So you would expect the number of people trying to enlist would be a lot higher than those that do get enlisted. They obviously still want to attract a lot applicants so they have a better bunch to pick from but according to the article posted there are only 2 trans-gender people a year who join so is it really worth paying $40,000 for surgery to attract 2 more people a year?

EDIT: I'd just like to point out I am in favor of the military making amendments for uniforms for those trans-gender people who are enlisted. I'm just confused by why they would offer surgery.

liah

SugarHigh wrote: »

Does the Canadian army really have trouble recruiting. I thought they had a very fixed army size that could only be changed by congress?

So you would expect the number of people trying to enlist would be a lot higher than those that do get enlisted. They obviously still want to attract a lot applicants so they have a better bunch to pick from but according to the article posted there are only 2 trans-gender people a year who join so is it really worth paying $40,000 for surgery to attract 2 more people a year?

I mean, it's been awhile since I was last in the country, but when I was there were recruitment commercials on pretty much all the time, people coming to our schools to recruit, etc. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what our culture espouses. If they are joining, it's purely for peace corps purposes.

Canadians don't have the war drive like Americans do, nobody I grew up with was ever particularly interested in the military, I only know one guy in the Canadian military but only from online.

I would be surprised if they were turning people away tbh. Again, I haven't been in Canada in some time so I'm a bit out of date.

SugarHigh

liah wrote: »

I mean, it's been awhile since I was last in the country, but when I was there were recruitment commercials on pretty much all the time, people coming to our schools to recruit, etc. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of what our culture espouses. If they are joining, it's purely for peace corps purposes.

Canadians don't have the war drive like Americans do, nobody I grew up with was ever particularly interested in the military, I only know one guy in the Canadian military but only from online.

I would be surprised if they were turning people away tbh. Again, I haven't been in Canada in some time so I'm a bit out of date.

Canada do have a presence in Afghanistan and I'm pretty sure they are involved in the offensive that was in Helmand earlier on in the year but I get what you're saying about Canada not being a military.

We also get occasional recruitment drives for the defense forces but not since the freeze in employment of all public sectors.

I can't imagine any army in a first world country that isn't turning down a lot of applicants. Ireland isn't a military country but the DF still get there pick.

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

They obviously still want to attract a lot applicants so they have a better bunch to pick from but according to the article posted there are only 2 trans-gender people a year who join so is it really worth paying $40,000 for surgery to attract 2 more people a year?

The alternative being ... ? That they try and screen their prospective applicants for gender-variant behaviour and exclude them?

EDIT: I'd just like to point out I am in favor of the military making amendments for uniforms for those trans-gender people who are enlisted. I'm just confused by why they would offer surgery.

The alternative being ... ? That the army has soldiers who are suffering greatly with gender dysphoria and, through their anguish, put the lives of their comrades at risk?

I imagine that $20,000 is peanuts compared to the "average" medical cost of treating a soldier - soldiers who need medical treatment tend to need rather extensive treatment.

SugarHigh

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The alternative being ... ? That they try and screen their prospective applicants for gender-variant behaviour and exclude them?
The alternative being ... ? That the army has soldiers who are suffering greatly with gender dysphoria and, through their anguish, put the lives of their comrades at risk?

I imagine that $20,000 is peanuts compared to the "average" medical cost of treating a soldier - soldiers who need medical treatment tend to need rather extensive treatment.

The alternative being ... ? That they try and screen their prospective applicants for gender-variant behaviour and exclude them?

I like how you think this would be the only other option.

Why does not paying for their surgery mean they would then have to exclude them?

The alternative being ... ? That the army has soldiers who are suffering greatly with gender dysphoria and, through their anguish, put the lives of their comrades at risk?

If someone has anguish that may cause harm to other soldiers then then they simply shouldn't be allowed to enlist. Instead of the army having to solve their problems.

I don't believe that someone who is trans-gender is a danger to other soldiers. Why don't they just get their surgery by either paying for it themselves or getting the Canadian NHS to pay for it?

I imagine that $20,000 is peanuts compared to the "average" medical cost of treating a soldier - soldiers who need medical treatment tend to need rather extensive treatment

Injuries caused while on duty are the armies responsibility because they are the cause. Someone wanting a sex change is not the military responsibility and if someone is a risk to other soldiers they should be kicked out of the army.

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

deirdre_dub wrote:

The alternative being ... ? That they try and screen their prospective applicants for gender-variant behaviour and exclude them?

I like how you think this would be the only other option.

Did you not see the question mark at the end of my sentence? That question mark was indicating that my alternative was a suggestion, as opposed to "the only option".

Why does not paying for their surgery mean they would then have to exclude them?

I believe I answered that - their untreated anguish would make them poor(er) soldiers.

If someone has anguish that may cause harm to other soldiers then then they simply shouldn't be allowed to enlist. Instead of the army having to solve their problems.

So you agree with my initial suggestion - they should be screened for and excluded?

Of course, the problem then is what do you do when their gender variance is so hidden that they are not consciously aware of it or displaying signs of it? At the end of the day, trans people are always going to end up in the military.

I don't believe that someone who is trans-gender is a danger to other soldiers.

As a transgendered person, whereas I do not believe I would be a danger to other soldiers per se, I certainly believe I would be a sub-standard soldier relative to what I would be if I were treated for my condition.

Why don't they just get their surgery by either paying for it themselves or getting the Canadian NHS to pay for it?

What difference does it make if the Canadian military pays for it versus the Canadian NHS paying for it? It's still the taxpayers bill at the end of the day.

On a practical level, the military undoubtedly do not have the specialised surgeons that SRS requires, so trans soldiers would end up in the Canadian NHS system anyway, even if it were the military that was paying for it.

Someone wanting a sex change is not the military responsibility and if someone is a risk to other soldiers they should be kicked out of the army.

Nobody wants sex change operations. There are people who need sex change operations in order to function properly.

The military tends to be a good employer. When one of their comrades is experiencing problems - regardless of the source - they tend to work with that comrade and try and fix the problem. That is what happens when you work with people who you entrust your life to and whose lives they entrust to you.

LegacyUser

SugarHigh wrote: »

Does anyone know why they pay for sex change operations? I can understand the Canadian NHS paying but why would it fall on the military to do so?

They do it because the provinces' health care systems cover it, and they have an obligation (even if only moral) to provide at least the same standards of care to its members that they would get if they were civilians.