Is the "cheesing" term overused?

Sabre0001

Ok, I don't claim to be a prodigy of SC or any other RTS - could never pull that one off for too long. But I do enjoy watching streams and VODs. One of the criticisms of the Korean league at the moment is all the "cheesing".

For all tactics, there is a counter - that is the beauty...Plus, players know the importance of scouting, etc. Unfortunately, best-of-one matches allow for some iffy tactics to be used - because players will be more adept if they play the same guy again. But I'm rambling.....

Is the term used too much? And where is the line between agressive tactics, rush tactics and cheese tactics?

Funky

The term's used way too much on forums/people raging ingame but the critique of the GSL for cheesing is deserved in my opinion. I think cheese refers to a build which is based off one killing attack with no transition to anything else after. Hyper aggressive builds aren't cheese if you don't have to sacrifice your economy too much or if the attack forces the opponent have to cut back on workers to defend or blow resources on building defenses that otherwise wouldn't have been necessary.

Most of the complaints about cheese in the GSL have been about the mass marine/scv rushes against zerg which really if it doesn't win in the first few minutes the terran may as well gg instantly since they bring almost all their SCVs and just leave the mules mining. Generally a cheese tactic is easy to do but hard to defend which is why so many people rage about it. But you're right, there's no unbeatable rushes and in a tournament you can't blame a player for using anything at his disposal to win, even if it isn't 'playing the game properly'.

The game's not even 6 months old yet and is definitely still be figured out, as time goes on people will get better and better at figuring ways to beat cheese but it'll always have its place, even at the highest level (if BW is anything to go by).

NeoSlicerZ

Larger maps would help but it seems that korean Ts bar NaDa can't play a macro game, lol, or as Artosis would say. A third base!? What's that.

Nody

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Is the term used too much? And where is the line between agressive tactics, rush tactics and cheese tactics?

If it beats my favourite (or me) or not...

Ramza

Scouting>cheese

NeoSlicerZ

Cheesing is a tactic that has no virtually no transition out of. Which is why a 4G isn't cheese merely a macro rush. A cannon rush PvZ isn't cheese either since it usually transitions pretty ****ing well into an expo on some maps.

Zombrex

I think with StarCraft 2 a lot of new players have been introduced to terms that they don't quite understand, so you do see the term cheese misused (I'm new to SC2 myself but I read up on what these terms mean)

For example recently against Terran I built a forward base with siege tanks and a flying barracks to spot for the tanks. This wasn't a particularly fast rush, he foolishly allowed me the time to do this and my main economy was ticking over just fine, with a second expansion up. I basically destroyed his choke point block and his defensive line, and strolled into his base with M&M.

He complained about the "cheese" tactics I used (I think he was referring to the flying barracks which he found impossible to shoot down). This wasn't cheese at all, just aggressive play that he was not prepared to counter. I think "cheese" is sometimes mis-used simply to mean a strong tactic that you didn't counter in time or don't know how to counter, that really really pissed you off :pac:

Jonny7

NeoSlicerZ wrote: »

Cheesing is a tactic that has no virtually no transition out of. Which is why a 4G isn't cheese merely a macro rush. A cannon rush PvZ isn't cheese either since it usually transitions pretty ****ing well into an expo on some maps.

Partially true

When I play Zerg and do my favorite 8 pool, even if it fails I have plenty of economy to play with - so I wouldn't say its an all-in... however..


Thats only really valid up to low/mid diamond - above that and any early attack tactic that isn't successful will often leave the defender with an advantage, even a small one - at high level (just like chess, going a piece down) you will be punished and most likely beaten by the other player.

I mean a class S korean who 4-gates knows he is in big trouble if the other play manages to stop it. But yah you can get away with that in diamond.

Ramza

As far as actual "cheese" goes it's incredibly easy to stop. The kind that really leaves you ****ed if you mess it up or get scouted. It's way too risky to try which is why I never really get why people risk it all the time. I guess it's because in theory it is actually quite strong if the opponent does not scout in their base in time

For example, I played on ladder yesterday on Jungle Basin, TvT. Usually what I do on short rush distance maps like this one, or whenever I suspect cheese in general, at about 12 supply when my rax is building I take one SCV off minerals to scout around my base and expo. I sent my scout out at 11/19 supply after making first depot, upon getting to his base I see no unit production structures/gas at all, and about 5/6 SCVs, a small number anyway.

What's funny is that I had scouted around my base while said SCV was going to his base, and saw no sign of cheese, so when I saw no structures and lack of workers I got really confused. That was until I realised I had forgot to scout my expo. I then went to see what was up and low and behold he had 1 rax up and the second one building. I built a bunker and teched up to marauders and tanks while using my marines to kill his SCV/any marines while continuing production and keeping an economy. It didn't take long until he realized he was ****ed and GGed

In the last few days the amount of cheese I have spotted just by scouting is unreal

So just scout more :pac:

BlitzKrieg

I will agree on the scouting but I must echo Ramza's story. There are far too many holes and corners for an all in surprise attack on some maps that unless you are well versed in both the map and the tactic you can be easily frustrated when you find you are being cheesed and that you did anticipate it but you just skimmed that pylon/warpgate by a fraction too small.

NeoSlicerZ

There is cheese that's incredibly hard to stop, XN cannon rush from low ground + 2 pylon ramp block.

pixelburp

Well I don't know what constitutes "cheese", it was a new term to me coming from other RTS games that used their own terms and phrases; but if "cheese" means cheap, aggressive tactics that stop a game going past the 6 minute mark or developing into anything resembling fun, then surely Protoss win that label without trouble. I can't count the number of cheeses I lose to, or the numbers available to the Toss.

And yes, I scout. I scout so much sometimes my Macro goes to hell, but even then I occassionally miss that vital Gateway lurking in a corner, or that fscking pylon that lets him warp his 5/6 stalkers across the map. Next thing I know I have 2/3 zealots raping my drones earhole because mr. Toss can build n' forget. Whoopty-woo.

I've actually stopped saying "GL HF" on ladder matches because frankly, half the time I don't have fun and I'd rather not wish more luck on the other fella than he deserves. If that sounds like bad sportsmanship, then stuff it; I'm sick of losing to a proxy canon rush after a "GL HF". What SC2 is severely lacking at the moment (on 1v1 ladder) is a sense of fun. It isn't fun, it's a deeply frustrating grind where the difference between a win / loss is how lucky you are scouting.

*breathes out* rant over I miss slumming it in the Bronze leagues because at least there no one's trying to ape the Pros, or acting like a tremendous douche.

Jonny7

pixelburp wrote: »

Well I don't know what constitutes "cheese", it was a new term to me coming from other RTS games that used their own terms and phrases; but if "cheese" means cheap, aggressive tactics that stop a game going past the 6 minute mark or developing into anything resembling fun, then surely Protoss win that label without trouble. I can't count the number of cheeses I lose to, or the numbers available to the Toss.

And yes, I scout. I scout so much sometimes my Macro goes to hell, but even then I occassionally miss that vital Gateway lurking in a corner, or that fscking pylon that lets him warp his 5/6 stalkers across the map. Next thing I know I have 2/3 zealots raping my drones earhole because mr. Toss can build n' forget. Whoopty-woo.

I've actually stopped saying "GL HF" on ladder matches because frankly, half the time I don't have fun and I'd rather not wish more luck on the other fella than he deserves. If that sounds like bad sportsmanship, then stuff it; I'm sick of losing to a proxy canon rush after a "GL HF". What SC2 is severely lacking at the moment (on 1v1 ladder) is a sense of fun. It isn't fun, it's a deeply frustrating grind where the difference between a win / loss is how lucky you are scouting.

*breathes out* rant over I miss slumming it in the Bronze leagues because at least there no one's trying to ape the Pros, or acting like a tremendous douche.

Its like getting mad over 'teamplay' on public servers for some game.. its just the way it is

I had a lot of fun playing big 4v4s with mates and having a drink, or just getting into custom 2v2s with a friend on teamspeak

I am too old now for the diamond 1v1 competiveness

Some people are naturals at RTS's and its no effort to them.. I am certainly not natural and I must be actually damaging my brain trying to multitask that fast

String

I think it is overused. 6pool or cannon rush is what I consider cheese. In silver 1 in every 3 games I play people do these strats, and even the new 12 drone rush on steps! Very annoying. I think for proffessional players in GSL etc, they dont give a f*uck is money is on the line, and I wouldnt either. Im not pro lol so I prefer to play normal build games to practice late game which I rarly get to play.

NeoSlicerZ

Depends on the timings and situations. I have a forge down for a f/e on shakuras cross positions, you can be sure as **** I'm going to try and cannon rush a 14 hatch, and be filled with glee over it. "If you can pylon block a Zerg and have your nexus, forge and gateway finish before his hatch starts, why the **** wouldn't you?" - Incontrol.

seraphimvc

the term is defo overused, but this overuse issue is understandable. sc2 tourneys atm made up mostly by cheese and all-in attack, which is so similar to a good timing attack. whats the difference between them are:

an overcommitted cheese simply means no skill, less powerful than a good all-in attack, it is pretty much a gamble on hoping to catch the oppo off guard and it is pretty much an all-in(since he is not gonna build up his econ). a smart cheese can be a good early harass and can transition into long macro game. the defining point of cheese is most likely to be if you scout that cheese coming and make the exact right decision to counter, you win, because at that exact time frame the cheeser wont have alot units at the same time. but if you didnt counter it right(lose too much units to fend off the cheese etc), the cheeser still can come back!!

which leads to the confusion of many people to 'all-in' play. all-in should be stronger and slightly/later than a cheese build(cheese need to be quick to be effective) and there is no turning back if the all-in fails, the allin-er is cutting off his econ to do the all-in (hence called all-in). the perfect example of all-in would the toss who played Leenock on blist sand in gsl3, the toss mannerly gg after the all-in he failed

people just call whatever games 'cheese game' when they feel the cheesey-ness XD which happens in cheese/early harass/all-in play.

and i believe 14hatch then pool is another form of 'cheese' :pac:, it is extremely vulnerable to early all-in.

BlitzKrieg

and i believe 14hatch then pool is another form of 'cheese' , it is extremely vulnerable to early all-in.

I dont follow that.

Like pixelburp I never heard the term cheese before starcraft. But I assumed it being the most popular online rts that it was a defined term that sort of ran along the same lines of 'imba abuse' in other rts games. Where you are not breaking the rules just bending them by so much by using units in an unorthodox way (such as pioneer spam in COH) that requires the opponent to specifically know the tactic and deliver the correct counter prior to it being shown on the field. Hence why the answer to any sort of complaint is of course *scout*

which I feel is unfair cause its not just you need to scout, you also need to be able to identify the tactic, I mean its little details like no gas 2 barracks = marine spam. while no gas 1 barracks = high risk expansion that players need to develop and in some cases, particulary with protoss there is the extra element of frustration with how easy it is to hide most of this. There have been far too many times I have scouted the base and see nothing and essentially panic pulling 2 more drones off the minerals to search every corner near my base.

The 14 hatch to use other rts terms is an ECO build, its like in c&c 3 opting for tfast expansion to blue tib straight away over establishing a war factory. Which 60-70% of the time will work unless you get scouted early and you have nod bikes screaming down on your harvesters before you get pitbulls out to chase them off. If you dont get attacked you walk off with a much stronger economy.

14 hatch is the same, its a logical call based on map and opponent to push for economy over defence/offence and relying on a strong mid to late game to win the match. It doesnt require scouting and a direct specific counter to stop it. You can still beat a player who has gone heavy economy even if you completely missed it in the opening minute of the match.

I wouldnt call that *cheesing* its Eco play.

seraphimvc

14 hatch is essentially a gamble if you think of it - it is extremely vulnerable to the likes of foxer's style early pressure or any all-in terran play, it is just like any other early cheese which is basically gg if you scout it and counter it right. artosis mentioned that that it is kinda a cheese too. of course it is still now a debatable topic that how should zerg defend a 2 rax all-in - some people say in-base hatch is the answer since idra/Ret said you need to hatch first to counter 2 rax all-in.

i do 14hatch14pool in 1v1 all the time if i know the player is not a fan of all-in or spawn in non-close distance positions, i admit that i am greedy for the econ since in all honesty i know it is safer to expo at about 20+supply :P

BlitzKrieg

14 hatch is essentially a gamble if you think of it - it is extremely vulnerable to the likes of foxer's style early pressure or any all-in terran play, it is just like any other early cheese which is basically gg if you scout it and counter it right.

The key difference between opting for a heavy eco build and opting for a cheese build is one can be countered without needing to be scouted and have a specific response rolled out. The other it is necessary to scout it and roll out a specific counter.

I dont consider 14 hatch cheese.

Sabre0001

Fight cheese with cheese

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWgeeUBd_Zw

And scouting is key as mentioned