We need to sort out the system, we can't have gombeen TD's around

CorkMan

Jackie Haely-Rae, the man owns a pub in his own village. I suspect he owns more in the village. It is obvious he is only up in Dublin for South Kerry, only.

This type of practice should be ironed out, it is obvious Fianna Fail are saying "vote this through" and giving money to South Kerry, or possibly Haely-Rae himself. Now that he is on the way out, his son is coming in (what a coincidence) and his son will no doubt become a "Gombeen TD". I think there should be legislation put forward to rid this practice, otherwise it will keep on happening.

Plus I read that he was holding negotations with Fianna Fail on policies and one of his main points was his pension when he leaves. We all know he can get almost any high paying job in all of South Kerry, but he still wants the maximum payment possible.

They are holding the country to ransom. We need something to keep them out of government.

bladespin

Don't really see how you can legislate against someone becoming a TD, I'd be more inclined to push for some voter responsibility, though again, how you would do that is beyond me.

Muckie

Also a pet hate of mine is the Politicians children who follow in their
"fathers corrupt foot steps!"

Jesus, that and they drag thier extended clan of thieves with them.

"For the greater good" :mad:

Thedogsgone

People dont have to vote for these people if they dont want to.

I actually agree with your overall point but unfortunately thats democracy.

CorkMan

bladespin wrote: »

Don't really see how you can legislate against someone becoming a TD, I'd be more inclined to push for some voter responsibility, though again, how you would do that is beyond me.

Maybe restructure the TD system. Base it on population so Dublin/Cork/Limerick would have more TDs. Haely-Rae is from a little village in South Kerry, he shouldn't have the same power as a TD from a big city IMO.

Areas like South Kerry are set up for their TD's like Jackie Haely-Rae to thrive, that is never good.

OhNoYouDidn't

The only realistic way we can end parochial politics is to strengthen, and I mean fundamentally, local government to the point where national politicians have no influence on the minutae of South Kerry pothole filling. Let them get on with their jobs running the counry. The JHR's of the world will gravitate towords that forum

There is nothing wrong with South Kerry having a strong political advocate per say. The issue is when that person is involved in national politics and not contributing towords it in any way whatsoever.

mikemac

CorkMan wrote: »

Maybe restructure the TD system. Base it on population so Dublin/Cork/Limerick would have more TDs.

But that's already in place. The cities have multiple constituencies.

JHR represents the entire Kerry South

sheesh

I agree too overall.

But heally rae and those type in independents represent the same number of people as the TDs in big cities.

I think we need to split the way representation is done there should be legislator that enact laws and are in the cabinet and a local representation too.

Here in Kerry north we have the very opposite situation where there was a safe FF seat the chances of FF getting another seat in previous elections was very low so they did not bother doing anything.


In fairness to healy rae he is playing the system for his own and his constituents benefit thats kind of his job, I know he speaks like a complete bog arab (love that phrase) but there is a sharp political mind behind it which is more that can be said for the FF representative in my constituency. JHR has my grudging respect.

FTA69

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The only realistic way we can end parochial politics is to strengthen, and I mean fundamentally, local government to the point where national politicians have no influence on the minutae of South Kerry pothole filling. Let them get on with their jobs running the counry. The JHR's of the world will gravitate towords that forum

There is nothing wrong with South Kerry having a strong political advocate per say. The issue is when that person is involved in national politics and not contributing towords it in any way whatsoever.

True, I'd personally have a lot of time for independents such as Seamus Healy in Tipperary or the late Tony Gregory. While the two of those were also concerned with the areas in which they were elected they also articulated a strong political alternative as well as being an advocate for the poor and marginalised. They weren't concerned with gombeenism and clientelism.

Healy-Rae and co, on the other hand, are the epitome of what's wrong with Irish politics. In a similar vein you had people in their droves in Waterford voting for that eejit Martin Cullen on the basis of "sure if it wasn't for him we'd have nothing done in Waterford."

While I wouldn't be opposed to a list system per se, I also feel that every citizen has the right to run for election on a given platform. That having been said, a strong local government would ensure that any independent gets elected on a relevant and principled message as opposed to fixing Mary's windows and wangling funding for the local GAA or whoever.

CorkMan

feelingstressed wrote: »

But that's already in place. The cities have multiple constituencies.

JHR represents the entire Kerry South

FTA69 has a good idea, limit what the independents can do. Develop a strong local government and don't have to for Mary or the local GAA.

Cookie_Monster

how do you change it though?

If someone runs on the basis of only acting nationally they will not be voted in as the locals will think of themselves first. Its happens in every constituency and until TDs are not allowed to have local offices and interact with locals until every avenue with councillors has been exhausted it'll be more of the same.

Riskymove

CorkMan wrote: »

FTA69 has a good idea, limit what the independents can do. .

all the Independents can do is the same as any other TD, vote!

its simply a numbers game after that

Riskymove

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how do you change it though?

If someone runs on the basis of only acting nationally they will not be voted in as the locals will think of themselves first. Its happens in every constituency

you can never completely get rid of it

you could elect on a national basis or a less personalised system like a list system but there is always some element of 'what do you do for me?'

CorkMan

Maybe we might not be able to rid of entirely, but we can reduce it. It is 100% blatant what is going on now.

OhNoYouDidn't

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how do you change it though?

If someone runs on the basis of only acting nationally they will not be voted in as the locals will think of themselves first. Its happens in every constituency and until TDs are not allowed to have local offices and interact with locals until every avenue with councillors has been exhausted it'll be more of the same.

Limit what TD's can do. If your application to the Civil Service has a TD's letter attached, you are eliminated. If your application for a medical card is followed up by a TD, you go to the back of the queue. Add a fourth pillar to the legislative, executive and judiciary of local and make it the same sort of offence to try and influence the local as the judiciary.

When people realise its futile to lobby TD's on bureacratic or local issues, they will stop and electoral habits will follow.

jimmycrackcorm

The next government should simply reverse anything that the independents have asked for. So sorry Tralee, you only had a chance of a bypass because you elected a gombeen who was able to hold the last government to ransom.

Independents have no value for government except when they hold the balance of power which, as we well know, distorts democracy. People can argue that small parties such as the Greens or SF distort democracy too in the same balance of power situation but at least they represent a set of policies on a national level and not local bribery: - "elect me and I'll get you a new road".

Monty Burnz

I just hope the folks in Kerry and Tipperary get royally screwed over for the next 10 years by the new government. That might teach them not to gamble on voting semi-literate bog men or corrupt sleeveens.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

CorkMan wrote: »

Maybe restructure the TD system. Base it on population so Dublin/Cork/Limerick would have more TDs. Haely-Rae is from a little village in South Kerry, he shouldn't have the same power as a TD from a big city IMO.

Areas like South Kerry are set up for their TD's like Jackie Haely-Rae to thrive, that is never good.

Theres a ratio of roughly one TD for every 20'000-30'000 people no matter where you go in Ireland. Healy-Rae doesnt represent any more people per capita than most Dublin TDs. Also when an area cant support being a constituency by itself it get amalgamated with another as happened with Roscommon and South Leitrim recently.

namloc1980

In my view Independents have no place in national politics. They run purely for local reasons and have no interest in furthering the interests of the country. They are only intent on ensuring the local parish pump is kept well oiled and plenty of local potholes are filled. And as is the case with this government with a very tight majority they can hold the goverment and the country to ransom to further their own local policies.

Of course to eradicate this scourge you need to give real power to Local Government so that if you want your passport application speeded up or your potholes filled you get onto the local councillor, not a TD. We also need to get away from PR-STV as it only encourages parish pump politics and bring in some form of party list system or a mixed system like they have in Germany.

Enough of the gombeenism!

goose2005

We need local governments spending money raised locally. If Kerry want a swimming pool then they should pay the taxes to build it and have the project overseen by a county mayor or whatever. Subsidies could be given to low-income regions of the country.

gandalf

A list system would sort out these Gombeen Politicians and kill Parish Pump politics. Couple that with real reform of Local Government and we will have gone a long way to sorting out the problems with our dysfunctional Political System.

the groutch

needs to be less constituencies so that parish pump politics cant be rewarded at a naitonal level

sheesh

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I just hope the folks in Kerry and Tipperary get royally screwed over for the next 10 years by the new government. That might teach them not to gamble on voting semi-literate bog men or corrupt sleeveens.

first of all its kerry south. secondly its just as bad everywhere else, ever heard of the 'drumcondra mafia'? the bertie bowl ? and that was back in a time where loads of people thought bertie was great.

jasonb

From what I've heard of it, this idea of the National Parliament dealing with national issues only, and Local Government dealing with local issues only sounds like the way it should be. Obviously, it would need some fundamental change, including getting rid of corruption in Local Government for a start!

Just curious, are there any European countries that use this model, or at least try to?

J.

CorkMan

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Limit what TD's can do. If your application to the Civil Service has a TD's letter attached, you are eliminated. If your application for a medical card is followed up by a TD, you go to the back of the queue. Add a fourth pillar to the legislative, executive and judiciary of local and make it the same sort of offence to try and influence the local as the judiciary.

When people realise its futile to lobby TD's on bureacratic or local issues, they will stop and electoral habits will follow.

Superb post.

Spacedog

(I'm from Dublin)

The people of Kerry should vote for whoever they think is the best candidate. The state of the infrastructure in the country is often niglected/overlooked and we dubs tend to believe that the country revolves around us.

The fact is that if any small party or independent can swing the BOP they can do a lot to get their way, it is for this reason also that we can safely vote for independents and smaller parties whos views co-inside more with our own than the 2 bowels of shiit/2 party system approach other countries often find themselves locked into.

"I said it before and I'll say it again. Democracy doesn't work!"

Cookie_Monster

Spacedog wrote: »

"I said it before and I'll say it again. Democracy doesn't work!"

Amen to that, put me in charge, I'll fix everything

Sleepy

Agree with those suggesting that a separation of national and local politics needs to be enacted.

Perhaps a simpler solution to the current clientilism would be to massively increase the length of time the Dail sits for and make TD attendence compulsory where that TD is not otherwise engaged in *genuine* state business (e.g. foreign trip, hosting foreign dignitaries etc. rather than making a grandstanding speech at a National Union of Pencil Sharpners or Ballygobackwards Chamber of Commerce conference) Have the Dail sit 226days a year, (5 days a week allowing for 20 days holidays, 9 public holidays and 5 days for misc other business).

More legislation could be dealt with and forcing the gombeens to effectively live in the Capital for most of the year would help reduce the local clientilism.

Removing state funding for Constituency Offices would be another good move.

Frogdog

Let me first state that I did not vote for JHR, although I am in the constituency of South Kerry. Never have voted for him, never will (or his son/sons etc).

I like to take an objective view on this whole scenario of JHR holding the government to ransom. Put yourself in the shoes of a resident of South Kerry or North Tipperary. You want something done in your area so that your quality of life will improve. Who will you vote for? The man that will get it done or the man that won't? Simple question with a simple answer.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY HE GETS VOTES - HE GETS THINGS DONE.

If he was from any other county/constituency in Ireland he'd be in the exact same position of power as an Independent TD. Corkman's posts stink of a bitterness towards Kerry (which is a bad habit of his). He is a very smart man, which is why he is so rich, and which is why he is in power. It has nothing to do with the people of South Kerry trying to get one over on the rest of Ireland.

CorkMan

Frogdog wrote: »

Let me first state that I did not vote for JHR, although I am in the constituency of South Kerry. Never have voted for him, never will (or his son/sons etc).

I like to take an objective view on this whole scenario of JHR holding the government to ransom. Put yourself in the shoes of a resident of South Kerry or North Tipperary. You want something done in your area so that your quality of life will improve. Who will you vote for? The man that will get it done or the man that won't? Simple question with a simple answer.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY HE GETS VOTES - HE GETS THINGS DONE.

If he was from any other county/constituency in Ireland he'd be in the exact same position of power as an Independent TD. Corkman's posts stink of a bitterness towards Kerry (which is a bad habit of his). He is a very smart man, which is why he is so rich, and which is why he is in power. It has nothing to do with the people of South Kerry trying to get one over on the rest of Ireland.

First off, I never said that South Kerry people try to get one over the rest of Ireland. That is my first point. Now, a traits of Jackie Haely-Raes character is in his latest dealings with the dail, one of his main points was the wage packets of TDs, how much they will be cut, etc. That is his baby, not South Kerrys. He wants the most money possbile, from the state before he leaves.

As for you saying the reason why he gets votes is because he gets things done, but that is to the sabotage of all Ireland. (including South Kerry and Tipperary) The social welfare bill passed yesterday by votes of 80-76. If all 3 Gombeen TD's voted against the bill it would not have passed. Instead the bill did pass and FF are robbing the lowest incomers, while keeping the pockets of the rich still swollen. I suspect not a lot of people from South Kerry are on welfare, because if there are they oughta step on JHRs toes once he arrives back in Kerry.

Also, why did you not vote for him if he "gets the job done"?

OhNoYouDidn't

Frogdog wrote: »

Let me first state that I did not vote for JHR, although I am in the constituency of South Kerry. Never have voted for him, never will (or his son/sons etc).

I like to take an objective view on this whole scenario of JHR holding the government to ransom. Put yourself in the shoes of a resident of South Kerry or North Tipperary. You want something done in your area so that your quality of life will improve. Who will you vote for? The man that will get it done or the man that won't? Simple question with a simple answer.

THIS IS THE REASON WHY HE GETS VOTES - HE GETS THINGS DONE.

If he was from any other county/constituency in Ireland he'd be in the exact same position of power as an Independent TD. Corkman's posts stink of a bitterness towards Kerry (which is a bad habit of his). He is a very smart man, which is why he is so rich, and which is why he is in power. It has nothing to do with the people of South Kerry trying to get one over on the rest of Ireland.

No one is disputing that, but the issue is it is not the job of a TD to 'get things done', that's for the local county council. JHR gets paid 92 grand a year plus expenses, to be part of the national legislative.

The issue is the culture of people expecting him to go to Dublin exclusively to lobby on their behalf and him thinking that's his job

mikemac

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I just hope the folks in Kerry and Tipperary get royally screwed over for the next 10 years by the new government. That might teach them not to gamble on voting semi-literate bog men or corrupt sleeveens.

Bit harsh.
Tony Gregory did the same and was hailed a hero. JHR or Michael Lowry do the same they are called gombeens?

Look at Waterford returning Martin Cullin, "the Minister for the South East". Sure if we don't have a minister in the area nothing will be done.

Look at Limerick and their TD getting more first preferences then any TD in the country. Well I saw the Dell fiaco in Texas but I already knew he had a strong reputation for local work. If it's deserved or not I don't know but Willie O'Dea pulled in the votes

People vote for someone who can get the job done.

If the national interest is your hospital gets closed down, go stand as a candidate and see what reaction you get.
Máire Hoctor did this and she is ruined as a politician, back to teaching so. Heckling from her constituents was the reward.

The Dáil reflects the electorate. Or course not everyone, I'd know saying "everyone" is a big deal here on this forum.
But the majority and it's the results that counts

Jeboa Safari

Should introduce something like they have in other countries where parties need 4-5% of the national vote before you can take your seat in the Dail at the very least.
I think we should strengthen local authorites, and introduce a list system for the general elections, where the parties hopefully have qualified people in the relevant positions. Surely someone qualified in the Health Department could make a better judgement of whether somewhere like Kenmare needs a hospital than Jackie Healy Rae and his likes. There should be a national plan for things like this, not local.