Overthrow the system!! Sort of...

thebigbiffo

Firstly, I believe this is a distinctly AH thread. As one of the most diverse, popular and dare I say subversive forums on boards it's the place for an idea like this to be floated. Plus - I just love all you guys!

Second, this is not my idea. I’m just passing it along because it sounds very interesting and I'd like to see how viable something like this could be.

So here it goes.

I personally always voted for one party and many voters out there are either loyal to a party or vote for the party they find most in tune with their current beliefs. There’s no way I can vote FF but at the same time I haven’t a notion where I’ll put my vote as I don’t have any great confidence in any of the parties - so any way I can avoid voting in the same bunch of no-hopers and opportunists is to be welcomed. We're all pretty much agreed that the political classes are entrenched. They are staid and they are overly comfortable and need to be shaken up. Couple all that with the fact that the EU and IMF are really going to be making the big financial calls for the foreseeable future and you’ve a situation where a clearout of the ‘old brigade’ can be done without being too worried about a loss of experience – at least on a national decision making level and either way we all know it’s the civil service that really run the show.

This is the proposal: countrywide – voters pick the ‘best of the bad lot’ to their mind in terms of the party they want to vote for. Most constituencies would field 2-3 candidates from the larger parties and elect about 4-5 TDs. The current elected TD from the party you choose gets your 3rd preference and the others get first and second – whichever candidate you feel is best. The general gist of it is that you vote a party in because you have to – nobody wants to look at a pile of independents squabbling in the Dail – but they are completely new TDs in most cases.

This in essence has the effect of putting the party you want in power but not the individual – their overall political position is the same but the TD is new with hopefully fresh thinking, new ideas and not as loyal to the power structures and status quo as a long serving TD would be. Also, this new TD is perfectly aware that if they do not perform as expected in their 4 years they will be duly ousted by the same system that – although rewards loyalty to a party (and lets face it, we’ve no real choice but to vote for some party) – does not reward complacency, laziness or an aversion to change that is a hallmark of the current Dail. To my mind this is the value of this system; you send the candidate packing without a political future unless they have helped change the party, change the system and change the country. For too long we’ve voted in the same old faces that we now all agree to be useless just because of (what we percieve as) experience, profile and local loyalties. Also, it may mean that more experts in the likes of economics, transport education or similar get their run at governance instead.

So anyway you frequenters of the diverse cross section of society that is AH; maybe something like this has been proposed before or there’s a problem with the idea but what do you think and would you support using the system against itself to try and make some radical changes?

imwatchingyou

what's up with the font size dude??

thebigbiffo

imwatchingyou wrote: »

what's up with the font size dude??

trying to fix!

woo hoo! wrote it in word and transfered over.

Duggy747

*squints eyes*

I got about half-way before it just all became a jumbled mess..................my eyes!!

Ruu_Old

CAN YOU SPEAK UP?

NothingMan

tl;dr? OP is a disease riddled Mexican transsexual prostitute looking for love in all the wrong places.

thebigbiffo

NothingMan wrote: »

tl;dr? OP is a disease riddled Mexican transsexual prostitute looking for love in all the wrong places.

50 american and i love you long time?

font sized fixed btw and if it's tl/dr you've no interest anyway so that's fine too.

bonerm

Ruu wrote: »

CAN YOU SPEAK UP?

I'M WEARING A TOWEL!

AnonoBoy

....where's the real tl;dr version?

Come on! Come on! I'm a busy man.

TheZohanS

tl;dr: I voted Fianna Fail last time (even though I wont admit to it in the OP) and now I want to apologise to all of you.

marco_polo

Getting ahead of yourself OP, stage one has to be getting 'Take the Power Back' by Rage against the Machine to #1.

More seriously, Dear Santa, for Christmas I would like at least a partial list system for our democracy.

thebigbiffo

marco_polo wrote: »

More seriously, Dear Santa, for Christmas I would like at least a partial list system for our democracy.

what's a partial list system?

marco_polo

thebigbiffo wrote: »

what's a partial list system?

Actually bad terminology on my part, the more correct term is a Mixed Member Proportional system, like used in new Zealand for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_Member_Proportional

AnonoBoy

marco_polo wrote: »

the more correct term is a Mixed Member Proportional system

Sounds like someone's organising an inter-racial midget orgy to me.

jezko

thebigbiffo wrote: »

– at least on a national decision making level and either way we all know it’s the civil service that really run the show./QUOTE]

Does NO ONE have an issue with this... Senior Civil Servants have Run this country from Day one... it seems to Me... So, No matter Who WE Vote in next time around... it'll still be the SAME Clowns running the Country in the Background as it always has been...

Are we going to See a real Change here??

thebigbiffo

marco_polo wrote: »

Actually bad terminology on my part, the more correct term is a Mixed Member Proportional system, like used in new Zealand for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_Member_Proportional

you are right there - without doubt a better system to what we currently have. but do you not think a message, like the suggestion above, delivered by the electorate would send a message that the country wants a change in how things are run?

i'm dissapoint with the reaction to the idea. i genuinely thought there'd be a few people in AH who'd get behind something like this considering how pissed off we all are with the state of the country and our politicians:(

davef1000

I'm sorely tempted to spoil my vote because I have no faith in any political party at the moment.

thebigbiffo

jezko wrote: »

thebigbiffo wrote: »

– at least on a national decision making level and either way we all know it’s the civil service that really run the show./QUOTE]

Does NO ONE have an issue with this... Senior Civil Servants have Run this country from Day one... it seems to Me... So, No matter Who WE Vote in next time around... it'll still be the SAME Clowns running the Country in the Background as it always has been...

Are we going to See a real Change here??

in a way also, this is what it's about. new faces without any gaurantee of a political future can challenge the civil service in the knowledge that they are fighting on behalf of the people who are no longer loyal to electing them.

thebigbiffo

davef1000 wrote: »

I'm sorely tempted to spoil my vote because I have no faith in any political party at the moment.

yeah but if everyone took this on board it totally reforms what parties all all about and who's in them.

starbelgrade

thebigbiffo wrote: »

you are right there - without doubt a better system to what we currently have. but do you not think a message, like the suggestion above, delivered by the electorate would send a message that the country wants a change in how things are run?

i'm dissapoint with the reaction to the idea. i genuinely thought there'd be a few people in AH who'd get behind something like this considering how pissed off we all are with the state of the country and our politicians:(

What you are suggesting is a removal of the "parish pump" politics, which I agree with strongly.

However, in order for this to work properly, you have to remove TDs from spending the majority of their time working in their constituencies.

What happens at present, is that people vote for who they feel would be best for their own area & when elected, TDs then spend their time trying to keep their constituents happy, in order to safeguard their votes for the next election, often in total disregard to the greater good of the country.

In order for this to change, they must be removed almost entirely from working in their local areas.

Until that happens, all parties policies will be diluted by the wants & needs of local people & areas.

What we need are strong, large parties, with real policies & the conviction to see them through, without the parish pump influence.

thebigbiffo

starbelgrade wrote: »

What you are suggesting is a removal of the "parish pump" politics, which I agree with strongly.

However, in order for this to work properly, you have to remove TDs from spending the majority of their time working in their constituencies.

What happens at present, is that people vote for who they feel would be best for their own area & when elected, TDs then spend their time trying to keep their constituents happy, in order to safeguard their votes for the next election, often in total disregard to the greater good of the country.

In order for this to change, they must be removed almost entirely from working in their local areas.

Until that happens, all parties policies will be diluted by the wants & needs of local people & areas.

What we need are strong, large parties, with real policies & the conviction to see them through, without the parish pump influence.

i completely agree. but i think this works for that at some level. the thinking being that the TD knows after their election that they are at the mercy of how well their party performs in general. for example: they put alot of time into their constituencies as they should but ALSO look after the national interest.

but in general, this clears out the entire mess that's there at the moment (and that would at least be some immediate message to the political classes) and puts the s'hits up TDs in 4 years time when they are wondering whether their party/government has served the national interests well enough to prevent another raft of 'nobodies' being voted in in their stead.

squod

What's the question?