Pharmacies - Why is everything restricted in this country?

BogMonkey

I went to the pharmacy there to get some Ginkgo biloba which I've bought over the counter in another country but I find out its prescription only here. The same thing happened me with St Johns Wort, 5-HTP and piracetam. St Johns Wort is an MAO inhibitor so its not that bizarre that they made that prescription only and 5-HTP has supposedly been linked to heart disease but there is no good excuse to make Ginkgo biloba and piracetam prescription only. They have no abuse potential, they have little or no toxicity and their beneficial effects outweigh their negative effects (if they have any) 1000 fold.

Why do we let them restrict substances like these? Irelands supposed to be a democracy so we're supposed to be the ones calling the shots.

coylemj

BogMonkey wrote: »

Irelands supposed to be a democracy so we're supposed to be the ones calling the shots.

Are you suggesting that there should be a nationwide referendum to see if each concoction should be approved or banned - or what exactly are you getting at when you say we're 'supposed' to be a democracy?

We have an Irish Medicines Board (http://www.imb.ie/) which controls what is and is not available and whether it should be available over the counter or on prescription in this country so we are the ones 'calling the shots'.

If we didn't have such a body we would be dependant on decisions by the FDA in the US or the relevant authority in the UK, what's your problem?

slimjimmc

The board of the IMB is appointed by the Minister for Health & Children. This is exercising some of his duties which were entrusted to him by the people as a member of a democratically elected Government.

BogMonkey

coylemj wrote: »

Are you suggesting that there should be a nationwide referendum to see if each concoction should be approved or banned - or what exactly are you getting at when you say we're 'supposed' to be a democracy?

No but I don't think there should be people deciding that the public should not have access to a substance despite there being no evidence of its harmful properties and there being plenty of evidence of its beneficial properties. I'd say the majority of people agree that cannabis has medicinal properties and in most cases is a far safer analgesic than opioids and NSAIDs but there are still people in constant pain cuz the opioids they're prescribed are ineffective and people dying of malnutrition as a result of cancer induced appetite suppression. I study chemistry and pharmacology but I know very little about politics so when I'm trying to get my point across its like having bullets but no gun. What does it take to get the legal status of a substance changed?

Pkiernan

Next thing you know they'll be restricting leeches for blood-letting, and banning drilling holes in the skull to release the demons ;)

DublinWriter

Pkiernan wrote: »

Next thing you know they'll be restricting leeches for blood-letting, and banning drilling holes in the skull to release the demons ;)

Well, considering some of the whacky sh*t I've seen pharmacists sell in Ireland, I don't doubt that if there was money to be made in the leech department, they'd have them regulated.

BogMonkey

Pkiernan wrote: »

Next thing you know they'll be restricting leeches for blood-letting, and banning drilling holes in the skull to release the demons ;)

Although its a funny comment, it doesn't make any sense in this context. The tools we use to determine that blood-letting and drilling holes in the skull have no medicinal value are the same tools we use to determine that the substances in question do. Incidentally, leeches are still used today for cleaning wounds. Are you saying they should be banned? The way I see it, if someone wants to use leeches or maggots to clean their cuts thats for them to decide.

DublinWriter wrote: »

Well, considering some of the whacky sh*t I've seen pharmacists sell in Ireland, I don't doubt that if there was money to be made in the leech department, they'd have them regulated.

Can you give a few examples of whacky **** you've seen them sell? I agree with you there, they'll find ways to regulate just about anything. Some antacids contain only sodium bicarbonate as their active ingredient but they'll write articles about why baking soda shouldn't be used as an antacid, relying on the gullability and ignorance of the person reading it. I was watching an ad for nurofen a while ago and couldn't help but admire the company for talking such pure and unadulterated bull**** and getting away with it. In the ad they said something like "Nurofen is specially formulated to strike at the source of pain and is designed for dealing with migraines, muscle pains, cramps etc." while anyone can look at the leaflet and see the active ingredients and excipients it contains and see that its just ibuprofen mixed with some common excipients that barely effect the pharmacokinetics of it.

Delancey

OP , the short answer to your question is that you live in a nanny state where there are scores of regulatory bodies that justify their existence by regulating everything under the sun.
Remember Mary Harney's plan to ban sunbeds - FFS !!

DublinWriter

BogMonkey wrote: »

Can you give a few examples of whacky **** you've seen them sell?

• Homeopathic Remedies
• Detox foot-baths
• Acupressure wrist bands
• 'Healing' Crystals

...and that's just off the top of my head.

BogMonkey

DublinWriter wrote: »

• Homeopathic Remedies
• Detox foot-baths
• Acupressure wrist bands
• 'Healing' Crystals

...and that's just off the top of my head.

My god they actually get away with selling healing crystals? I think we should pressure the IMB to put restrictions on these products to reduce the risk of people overdosing on acupressure or getting addicted to detox foot-baths.

Delancey

BogMonkey wrote: »

My god they actually get away with selling healing crystals? I think we should pressure the IMB to put restrictions on these products to reduce the risk of people overdosing on acupressure or getting addicted to detox foot-baths.

No no no - what would happen to the poor incremented and super annuated people working in the IMB ? - they might have to do something useful and that would be a tragedy.

cafecolour

I think they basically restrict anything that could theoretically interfere with any other drug you are taking.

fionathisisme

I am very aware that this post is really old. I just came across it and it just really bugged me. People are so cock-sure of themselves when really they have no idea.

BogMonkey wrote: »

I went to the pharmacy there to get some Ginkgo biloba which I've bought over the counter in another country but I find out its prescription only here....... They have no abuse potential, they have little or no toxicity and their beneficial effects outweigh their negative effects (if they have any) 1000 fold.

I don't understand why think ginkgo is just a herbal product with no toxicity. If it brings about an effect it has the potential to do harm. Ginkgolide B is a potent inhibitor of PAF. which essentially stops blood clot formation. So should not be taken with other anti-thrombotic agents e.g. Wafrarin, aspirin. Blood that is too thin can lead to hemorrhagic stroke which is extremely dangerous. Ginkgo is believed to lower seizure threshold-85% of the population have some propensity to seizure. And should not be taken by anyone with a history of convulsion.

Ginkgo interacts with a "major risk" with.

Anticoagulants, Antiplatelet Agents
Concomitant use of Ginkgo and these medications may increase the risk of bleeding complications.

Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Agents (NSAIDs)
Increased risk of bleeding with concomitant use of Ginkgo; Meisel et al 2003 reports a fatal intracerebral hemorrhage associated with concomitant use of Ginkgo and ibuprofen.

Trazodone
Concurrent use may result in excessive sedation and potential coma.


I agree that the there are many many positive effects of ginkgo. but it is not necessarily safe.

BogMonkey wrote: »

A: No but I don't think there should be people deciding that the public should not have access to a substance despite there being no evidence of its harmful properties

B: majority of people agree that cannabis has medicinal properties and in mand there being plenty of evidence of its beneficial properties. I'd say the ost cases is a far safer analgesic than opioids and NSAIDs but there are still people in constant pain cuz the opioids they're prescribed are ineffective and people dying of malnutrition as a result of cancer induced appetite suppression.


C: I study chemistry and pharmacology but I know very little about politics so when I'm trying to get my point across its like having bullets but no gun. What does it take to get the legal status of a substance changed?

A: I think I have proven that to be false.

B: Synthetic Cannabiniod B analogues are licensed for use as a second line chemotherapeutic induced nausea. ie. man made Cannabis is being used every day. It is not licensed in Ire but thats because it is not worth the money it costs to license it. Irish doctors may still prescribe it if they wish.

C: It seems to me as though you have no bullets and no gun... I really hope you are a first year student.

BogMonkey wrote: »

A: Are you saying they should be banned? The way I see it, if someone wants to use leeches or maggots to clean their cuts thats for them to decide.


B: Some antacids contain only sodium bicarbonate as their active ingredient but they'll write articles about why baking soda shouldn't be used as an antacid, relying on the gullability and ignorance of the person reading it.

C: I was watching an ad for nurofen a while ago and couldn't help but admire the company for talking such pure and unadulterated bull**** and getting away with it. In the ad they said something like "Nurofen is specially formulated to strike at the source of pain and is designed for dealing with migraines, muscle pains, cramps etc." while anyone can look at the leaflet and see the active ingredients and excipients it contains and see that its just ibuprofen mixed with some common excipients that barely effect the pharmacokinetics of it.

A: Well let them go on and use maggots just don't expect to but them in a pharmacy. How could anyone possibly sell them and guarantee that they wouldn't spread disease of infection (from the maggot or leech or the stagnant water they live in)

B: There are an AWFUL lot of people-I'm talking a quarter of the country who don't know how to follow/can't read instructions like "take two tablets three times a day" You really think most people could safely and accurately work out a correct dose from a household foodstuff?- Not likely. Antacids also interact with medication and cause rebound dyspepsia, also treating chronic heartburn can mask more serious complications like stomach cancer- of which there is a high rate in this country. So no the IMB aren't going to advocate self medication with home remedies.

C: I agree that most OTC med advertising is ridiculous. But it is heavily regulated and controlled if you think it is bad now look up so adverts from 30 years ago. But neurofen is specially formulated-it is enteric coated. enteric coating DOES alter PK. it changes site of dissolution and the site of absorption the differences in acidic ph and basic ph with alter the amount of NSAID in the deprotonated or free acid form-which alters absorption.

Delancey wrote: »

No no no - what would happen to the poor incremented and super annuated people working in the IMB ? - they might have to do something useful and that would be a tragedy.

The IMB do LOADS the pharma industry is what is just about keeping us going at this point.

crystal hedgehog

fionathisisme wrote: »

I am very aware that this post is really old. I just came across it and it just really bugged me. People are so cock-sure of themselves when really they have no idea.



I don't understand why think ginkgo is just a herbal product with no toxicity. If it brings about an effect it has the potential to do harm. Ginkgolide B is a potent inhibitor of PAF. which essentially stops blood clot formation. So should not be taken with other anti-thrombotic agents e.g. Wafrarin, aspirin. Blood that is too thin can lead to hemorrhagic stroke which is extremely dangerous. Ginkgo is believed to lower seizure threshold-85% of the population have some propensity to seizure. And should not be taken by anyone with a history of convulsion.

Ginkgo interacts with a "major risk" with.

Anticoagulants, Antiplatelet Agents
Concomitant use of Ginkgo and these medications may increase the risk of bleeding complications.

Nonsteroidal Anti-inflammatory Agents (NSAIDs)
Increased risk of bleeding with concomitant use of Ginkgo; Meisel et al 2003 reports a fatal intracerebral hemorrhage associated with concomitant use of Ginkgo and ibuprofen.

Trazodone
Concurrent use may result in excessive sedation and potential coma.


I agree that the there are many many positive effects of ginkgo. but it is not necessarily safe.



A: I think I have proven that to be false.

B: Synthetic Cannabiniod B analogues are licensed for use as a second line chemotherapeutic induced nausea. ie. man made Cannabis is being used every day. It is not licensed in Ire but thats because it is not worth the money it costs to license it. Irish doctors may still prescribe it if they wish.

C: It seems to me as though you have no bullets and no gun... I really hope you are a first year student.



A: Well let them go on and use maggots just don't expect to but them in a pharmacy. How could anyone possibly sell them and guarantee that they wouldn't spread disease of infection (from the maggot or leech or the stagnant water they live in)

B: There are an AWFUL lot of people-I'm talking a quarter of the country who don't know how to follow/can't read instructions like "take two tablets three times a day" You really think most people could safely and accurately work out a correct dose from a household foodstuff?- Not likely. Antacids also interact with medication and cause rebound dyspepsia, also treating chronic heartburn can mask more serious complications like stomach cancer- of which there is a high rate in this country. So no the IMB aren't going to advocate self medication with home remedies.

C: I agree that most OTC med advertising is ridiculous. But it is heavily regulated and controlled if you think it is bad now look up so adverts from 30 years ago. But neurofen is specially formulated-it is enteric coated. enteric coating DOES alter PK. it changes site of dissolution and the site of absorption the differences in acidic ph and basic ph with alter the amount of NSAID in the deprotonated or free acid form-which alters absorption.





The IMB do LOADS the pharma industry is what is just about keeping us going at this point.

Neurofen is nothing special- if you are ever an in-patient in an NHS hospital in the UK and need ibuprofen that is what you will be given-plain,unbranded,generic ibuprofen! Please note that all ibuprofen,including the cheap generic ones you can buy off the shelf in all the Pound Shops,B&M, Superdrug ETC., all have enteric coating and only cost 44Pence for 16 tablets compared with nearly 5Euros for 12 Neurofen here in the R.o.I.! This is pure profiteering IMO!
As for people in this country not being able to follow instructions, they are no worse than people in the UK who get their medical care free at the point of delivery,yet THEY are allowed buy things like St.John's Wort,5HTP and ibuprofen straight off the shelf and I do NOT remember the wards being overwhelmed by patients who were suffering side effects from these things when I was a nurse in England!People who are interested in complimentary remedies also DO tend to research things very thoroughly before partaking,going far beyond just reading the instructions, so that argument doesn't carry much weight in this instance!
The main reason these are restricted in this country is to do with MONEY- GPs charging 50-60Euros a visit and getting rewards from Big Pharma for prescribing their products is a big part of it! Patients don't pay the GP in the UK and the GPs there have nothing to gain by stopping people from using herbal remedies bought off the shelf. Furthermore,it would COST the NHS to do the same as the IBM and the Irish system does, so the government of the UK have no interest in doing so either BUT they are NOT completely irresponsible with the health of the populace- that would cost even more after all- so the idea that our government and the IBM are doing this to protect us is, at best, disingenuous! At worst,it's pure bull's crawn and an insult to the intelligence!

Pat Mustard

Mod:

I presume that the above post was made in error, without realizing that this is an old thread. In any event, I don't think that we need to keep this thread open any longer. Thread closed.