An All-Island Mandate

paky

If Sinn Fein are ever elected to Government in this country what do you think the future of the two states on this island will be, considering that they will likely remain involved in power-sharing in Northern Ireland for years to come?

Iwasfrozen

paky wrote: »

If Sinn Fein are ever elected to Government in this country what do you think the future of the two states on this island will be, considering that they will likely remain involved in power-sharing in Northern Ireland for years to come?

All they can do is call for a referendum in the North as per the GFA. Being part of government in the Republic won't give them any extra powers.

paky

i would think that sinn feins ideology would have a big impact on the functioning of both states. if a party like sinn fein get a mandate from the people of ireland, as a whole, i think that the people are in a way agreeing with their ideology therefore both states would cease to exist

Iwasfrozen

paky wrote: »

i would think that sinn feins ideology would have a big impact on the functioning of both states. if a party like sinn fein get a mandate from the people of ireland, as a whole, i think that the people are in a way agreeing with their ideology therefore both states would cease to exist

Nah the Unionists in NI would hold SF to the terms of the GFA. I could see them even going as far as sueing the Irish government if such a thing happened.

lugha

paky wrote: »

i would think that sinn feins ideology would have a big impact on the functioning of both states. if a party like sinn fein get a mandate from the people of ireland, as a whole, i think that the people are in a way agreeing with their ideology therefore both states would cease to exist

If by their ideology you mean their pro-unity stance then most Irish people already do agree with that, all the main political parties are, nominally at least, pro-unity. But the majority are also pro-GFA, and demonstrably so, so any change in the status of either state on this island will come about using the mechanism set out in said agreement.
And getting a bit of a bounce following a stint by a hugely unpopular government is some way shy from "getting a mandate from the people of Ireland"

paky

it wouldnt make a difference what the unionists wanted. sinn fein would be in the driving seat

BOHtox

Economies of scale.
One government instead of two.
One cival service instead of two.
One health service instead of two.
One currency instead of two.
One social welfare boards( probably lower dole down here and increased up there)
A few more example I could think of but not bothered. Personally I'd love one country instead of two, but I don't think it will happen anythime soon.

Iwasfrozen

paky wrote: »

it wouldnt make a difference what the unionists wanted. sinn fein would be in the driving seat

Yes it would. Don't you know the conditions of the Good Friday Agreement?

lugha

BOHtox wrote: »

Economies of scale.
One government instead of two.
One cival service instead of two.
One health service instead of two.
One currency instead of two.
One social welfare boards( probably lower dole down here and increased up there)
A few more example I could think of but not bothered. Personally I'd love one country instead of two, but I don't think it will happen anythime soon.

Surely you're not suggesting we throw out lot back in with Britain? :eek: :eek: :P

Manach

Of BOHtox's list of excellent would really scale up well if we rejoined the UK, even better savings?

pow wow

paky wrote: »

it wouldnt make a difference what the unionists wanted. sinn fein would be in the driving seat

Of course it makes a difference what they want. Disregarding one segment of the community is where part of the problem comes from. I don't think them getting into power here would signal a magic re-unification of the island if that's the line you're going down?

deise go deo

Manach wrote: »

Of BOHtox's list of excellent would really scale up well if we rejoined the UK, even better savings?

Ya but look how that ended the last time, I dont think we want to go back to that again.;)

All Island republic will do just nicely.(As long as 50%+ in NI agree, ar ndóigh)

Liam Byrne

deise go deo wrote: »

Ya but look how that ended the last time, I dont think we want to go back to that again.;)

And look how allowing some of "our own" idiots has ended!

imme

Sinn Fein are a minority in the Republic and in NI at present.

I don't see how a vote for them and them ending up in govt in NI and Rep. would mean that they had a joint mandate or something like that. It just means that they got enough votes to be in government.

As regards the future of the 'two states' as you describe them, is NI a state
but I get what you mean. Their being in govt in both Rep and NI wouldn't automatically mean anything.

I'm sure they would push for a united Ireland at that stage even more than now. Whether it would come about is speculation.

deise go deo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And look how allowing some of "our own" idiots has ended!

Ended? This isent the end, We can still rebuild our nation. FF came close to destroying it, but we can still show that Ireland can only be ruled by the Irish.

Denerick

deise go deo wrote: »

but we can still show that Ireland can only be ruled by the Irish.

I wish we had a 'I want to puke in response to extreme nonsense posted on the internet' smiley.

Ireland can be governed by the Irish, the British, The Malians, or the Martians for all I care. So long as we are governed well. Flags and accents will not determine our quality of life.

Above all else though, your statement is utterly vacuous as Ireland is indeed already ruled by the Irish, and look how that turned out?

KeithAFC

imme wrote: »

Sinn Fein are a minority in the Republic and in NI at present.

I don't see how a vote for them and them ending up in govt in NI and Rep. would mean that they had a joint mandate or something like that. It just means that they got enough votes to be in government.

As regards the future of the 'two states' as you describe them, is NI a state
but I get what you mean. Their being in govt in both Rep and NI wouldn't automatically mean anything.

I'm sure they would push for a united Ireland at that stage even more than now. Whether it would come about is speculation.

Yes it is.

round tower huntsman

paky wrote: »

If Sinn Fein are ever elected to Government in this country what do you think the future of the two states on this island will be, considering that they will likely remain involved in power-sharing in Northern Ireland for years to come?

given they follow a neo liberal/secterian/capatilist agenda in the osc but claim to be socialist in the free state i dont see how they can be compatible.

sf cant cut and privatise in the osc then call for socialism in the 26c's.
as usual they're trying to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

Iwasfrozen

Denerick wrote: »

I wish we had a 'I want to puke in response to extreme nonsense posted on the internet' smiley.

Ireland can be governed by the Irish, the British, The Malians, or the Martians for all I care. So long as we are governed well. Flags and accents will not determine our quality of life.

Above all else though, your statement is utterly vacuous as Ireland is indeed already ruled by the Irish, and look how that turned out?

Really? You don't care at all about self-determination and independence as long as you have a good quality of life? I find that hard to believe.

CrankyCod

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Really? You don't care at all about self-determination and independence as long as you have a good quality of life? I find that hard to believe.

I think we've proven conclusively that there is no such thing as independence for a smal lcountry; we spent the firts 80 years of "independence" ruled by Rome, and tied to Sterling then we had a few years of a credit-fuelled boom, and now we have to report weekly to the headmasters in Brussels and New York. True independence would only be possible if we were to accept that our quality of life should be much lower, based on our lack of natural resources; if we want material comforts, these come at a price.

KeithAFC

CrankyCod wrote: »

I think we've proven conclusively that there is no such thing as independence for a smal lcountry; we spent the firts 80 years of "independence" ruled by Rome, and tied to Sterling then we had a few years of a credit-fuelled boom, and now we have to report weekly to the headmasters in Brussels and New York. True independence would only be possible if we were to accept that our quality of life should be much lower, based on our lack of natural resources; if we want material comforts, these come at a price.

I agree with this.

deise go deo

Denerick wrote: »

I wish we had a 'I want to puke in response to extreme nonsense posted on the internet' smiley.

Ireland can be governed by the Irish, the British, The Malians, or the Martians for all I care. So long as we are governed well. Flags and accents will not determine our quality of life.

Above all else though, your statement is utterly vacuous as Ireland is indeed already ruled by the Irish, and look how that turned out?

:P


The Irish people are not responsible for the mess FF got us into, nor do FF represent an accurate or fair picture of Ireland, Hopefully when this is all over in a few years we can learn from the mistakes of the past and not let corruption and greed go to the top of our political system again, but make no mistake, Ireland can only be governed by the Irish,

After all the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, is sovereign and indefeasible.;):P

CrankyCod

deise go deo wrote: »

:P


The Irish people are not responsible for the mess FF got us into, nor do FF represent an accurate or fair picture of Ireland,

This is simply incorrect; Fianna Fail were returned to power by an informed, allegedly sophisticated electorate after free and fair elections, they literally represent the Irish people.

Ireland can only be governed by the Irish....unfortunately:)

deise go deo

CrankyCod wrote: »

This is simply incorrect; Fianna Fail were returned to power by an informed, allegedly sophisticated electorate after free and fair elections, they literally represent the Irish people.

Ireland can only be governed by the Irish....unfortunately:)

Yes, Before the sh!t hit the fan so to speak. If people were aware as they are now that FF's policies/way of doing things would turn out like this do you think FF would have been elected? Thats the problem with hind sight.

CrankyCod

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, Before the sh!t hit the fan so to speak. If people were aware as they are now that FF's policies/way of doing things would turn out like this do you think FF would have been elected? Thats the problem with hind sight.

If we could have gotten away with a few more years of building sh1te houses in bogs, buying gold-plated SUVs on credit cards, apartments in countries that have not yet been fully mapped and generally behaving like ADHD Bulgarian gangsters, I think, yes, people would still vote for Fianna Fail. But now we pretend that we thought they had a plan, and we act shocked and appalled that, OMG, the regulators weren't, like, regulating!

lugha

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, Before the sh!t hit the fan so to speak. If people were aware as they are now that FF's policies/way of doing things would turn out like this do you think FF would have been elected? Thats the problem with hind sight.

Not true at all. Knowledge of all of FFs "colourful" carry-on, from CJ to Burke to Lawlor to Beverly, and even Bertie was out there in the public domain well before the last election.

Liam Byrne

deise go deo wrote: »

Ended? This isent the end, We can still rebuild our nation. FF came close to destroying it, but we can still show that Ireland can only be ruled by the Irish.

For once, I find myself agreeing with Denerik.....I don't care who "rules" us (even though I don't find that phrase appealing, whether it's FF or a foreign setup) as long as they do it fairly and sustainably (and don't blame me if they screw it up).

deise go deo

lugha wrote: »

Not true at all. Knowledge of all of FFs "colourful" carry-on, from CJ to Burke to Lawlor to Beverly, and even Bertie was out there in the public domain well before the last election.

True, but till then it had worked, Most people dident see the crash coming, FF were the boom party, the good times party, we know now where that all ends, but its very easy to sit back and criticize now after the fact.

hsi

BOHtox wrote: »

Economies of scale.
One government instead of two.
One cival service instead of two.
One health service instead of two.
One currency instead of two.
One social welfare boards( probably lower dole down here and increased up there)
A few more example I could think of but not bothered. Personally I'd love one country instead of two, but I don't think it will happen anythime soon.

any does anyone really think that the majority unionist population in the north will ever accept united Ireland??? Let SF table a referendum as per FGA, it will be voted down.

deise go deo

hsi wrote: »

any does anyone really think that the majority unionist population in the north will ever accept united Ireland??? Let SF table a referendum as per FGA, it will be voted down.

Well the thing is the Unionist majority isent as strong as it used to be, The 2011 census is going to be very interesting when it comes out, Demographics in NI suggest that the unionists wont be in a position to vote it down in the near future.

murphaph

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, Before the sh!t hit the fan so to speak. If people were aware as they are now that FF's policies/way of doing things would turn out like this do you think FF would have been elected? Thats the problem with hind sight.

Stupid statement. FF's policies on the economy have not been a state secret. The electorate KNEW or could easily find out their policies by hitting up any number of resources, most easily on t'internet. They could also just read the budget for the last 13 years to see what FF's policies on the economy were/are. Claiming that electorate didn't know what they were voting for only goes to show how utterly useless we are at all this.

Anyway, if the "all ireland at any cost brigade" on here think the current dire straits the Rpublic of Ireland finds itself in will lead to unification any faster than would otherwise happen, they are SEVERELY deluding themselves.

If a majority of people in BOTH STATES at some point in the future wish to unite and it can be done without a single person dying for it or because of it or without causing a material reduction in living standards then I have no ideological opposition to it. I think the more "black and white/right or wrong" thinking protestant electorate might actually help the cesspit we have become to elect a more noble political class, one can but hope!

Frankly however I find these threads about Irish unification, at a time when our state is in such turmoil, to be opporrunistic tripe. SF may well get a strong vote in 2011 (despite their having even worse economic "policies" than FF) but the people voting for them will mostly be voting out of desperation/exasperation at the rest of the alternatives, rather than saying "we want a untited Ireland" because as has already been mentioned, ALL main parties in the south are pro-unity, but we don't have a untited Ireland despite having a Dail full of TDs who are nominally pro-unity.

Gambler

One health service instead of two.

We tried something like that before and got the HSE out of it - can you imagine the sort of bloated system we'd end up with if we tried the same thing with the whole government structure?!

paky

imme wrote: »

Sinn Fein are a minority in the Republic and in NI at present.

I don't see how a vote for them and them ending up in govt in NI and Rep. would mean that they had a joint mandate or something like that. It just means that they got enough votes to be in government.

As regards the future of the 'two states' as you describe them, is NI a state
but I get what you mean. Their being in govt in both Rep and NI wouldn't automatically mean anything.

I'm sure they would push for a united Ireland at that stage even more than now. Whether it would come about is speculation.

your thinking inside the box. i wouldnt think the leadership of sinn fein would see it that way. sinn fein, the IRA, have always seen themselves as the legitimate government/rulers of the island. if they ever came to power in the south, they could easily pass a motion within the dail to further include the six counties within the government or unify the island. to suggest that it wouldnt make a difference if sinn fein came to power down south is ridiculous considering what they stand for.
sinn fein are a radical party and their history tells us this. i think a united ireland is well within our grasp, if you need to understand why, you need to understand sinn fein.

Iwasfrozen

paky wrote: »

your thinking inside the box. i wouldnt think the leadership of sinn fein would see it that way. sinn fein, the IRA, have always seen themselves as the legitimate government/rulers of the island. if they ever came to power in the south, they could easily pass a motion within the dail to further include the six counties within the government or unify the island. to suggest that it wouldnt make a difference if sinn fein came to power down south is ridiculous considering what they stand for.
sinn fein are a radical party and their history tells us this. i think a united ireland is well within our grasp, if you need to understand why, you need to understand sinn fein.

They can't because it's in breach of the GFA. What part of that can you not understand? If SF annexed the north then you would be looking at legal if not military action from Britain.

paky

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They can't because it's in breach of the GFA. What part of that can you not understand? If SF annexed the north then you would be looking at legal if not military action from Britain.

whats your point? military action was never a concern for the republican movement. what part of that cant you understand?

Iwasfrozen

paky wrote: »

whats your point? military action was never a concern for the republican movement. what part of that cant you understand?

It's a concern for the vast majority of people in this country who need to put food on their childrens tables.

CrankyCod

paky wrote: »

sinn fein, the IRA, have always seen themselves as the legitimate government/rulers of the island.

That is the definition of insanity; despite 90 years of majorities for constitutional parties in the Republic,and an overwhelmng endorsementof the GFA in both parts of the island, some dickhead in a donkey jacket and a Fainne thinks he's the successor to Padraig Pearse??!!

There are probably plenty of people in asylums who think they are Napoleon Bonaparte but I wouldn't expect Sarkozy to be handing overthe keys of the Elysee Palace any time soon

Jim236

imme wrote: »

Sinn Fein are a minority in the Republic and in NI at present.

Actually Sinn Féin are currently the largest party in the North, and going by recent polls may well be the third largest party ahead of Fianna Fáil in the South after the next election.

dabestman1

Jim236 wrote: »

Actually Sinn Féin are currently the largest party in the North, and going by recent polls may well be the third largest party ahead of Fianna Fáil in the South after the next election.

Agree with that will be the largest party in the north, come the next assembly elections, while i honestly cannot see them outpolling ff.
Wud to love to c it

Denerick

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Really? You don't care at all about self-determination and independence as long as you have a good quality of life? I find that hard to believe.

Yes, really. Nationalism is a disgusting ideology responsible for the enslavement of millions. It is a creation of a ruling class whose sole aim was to manipulate and dictate to the naive and stupid. 'Self determination' is but a proxy term for 'self humiliation'. Nations are not of themselves a virtuous construct - on the contrary, actually. I don't care if an Irishman is in office in Dublin. I only care about whether he provides me sufficient liberty and security so that I can enjoy a good standard of living. Anything else is jingoistic nonsense that truly belongs in the dustbin of history.

I'd love it if an Irish politician had the balls to say 'What does 1916 mean to me? Not a lot really. Other than it left a legacy of violence and madness that is our general inheritance as a flawed species that purports to admire such rare cruelty and fanaticism'. Unlikely, I know.

lugha

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, really. Nationalism is a disgusting ideology responsible for the enslavement of millions. It is a creation of a ruling class whose sole aim was to manipulate and dictate to the naive and stupid. 'Self determination' is but a proxy term for 'self humiliation'. Nations are not of themselves a virtuous construct - on the contrary, actually. I don't care if an Irishman is in office in Dublin. I only care about whether he provides me sufficient liberty and security so that I can enjoy a good standard of living. Anything else is jingoistic nonsense that truly belongs in the dustbin of history.

Very well said. But I am not too sure about it being a creation of any class. Like religion, it seems to be a rather unsavoury trait that seems to surface naturally in individuals (though perhaps like the Jesuits, this might be in truth down to the cunning work handy of the said ruling class :pac:).
If it is a naturally occurring ailment, it is odd that many of the committed nationalist here are atheists. And it is also amusing to note that their great nemesis of the British empire and all that went with that, was spawned by exactly the same nationalistic urges in English men that they so embrace.

Denerick wrote: »

I'd love it if an Irish politician had the balls to say 'What does 1916 mean to me? Not a lot really. Other than it left a legacy of violence and madness that is our general inheritance as a flawed species that purports to admire such rare cruelty and fanaticism'. Unlikely, I know.

I don’t think you will be hearing this. At least not from anyone other than the odd maverick politician. I guess it is our equivalent of what they like to call poppy fascism in Britain.

Dannyboy83

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, really. Nationalism is a disgusting ideology responsible for the enslavement of millions. It is a creation of a ruling class whose sole aim was to manipulate and dictate to the naive and stupid. 'Self determination' is but a proxy term for 'self humiliation'. Nations are not of themselves a virtuous construct - on the contrary, actually. I don't care if an Irishman is in office in Dublin. I only care about whether he provides me sufficient liberty and security so that I can enjoy a good standard of living. Anything else is jingoistic nonsense that truly belongs in the dustbin of history.

I'd love it if an Irish politician had the balls to say 'What does 1916 mean to me? Not a lot really. Other than it left a legacy of violence and madness that is our general inheritance as a flawed species that purports to admire such rare cruelty and fanaticism'. Unlikely, I know.

One of the most sensible posts I've seen in ages, should be made a sticky.

Fratton Fred

paky wrote: »

whats your point? military action was never a concern for the republican movement. what part of that cant you understand?

A terrorist insurgency is somewhat different to a government forcibly.trying to take something their predecessors agreed wasn't theirs though.

Rather than a gang of hardliners organising raids from the back room of a pub, you are suggesting Ireland goes to war.

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And look how allowing some of "our own" idiots has ended!

I think the governments cock ups re banking sector, property bubble, mismanagement of currency change etc are more a reflection on our system of Government and particularly on FF. It is not indicative of an inability of Irish people to govern themselves.

Remember after Greece and Ireland GB is next highest in debt ratios amongst rich Eurozone nations.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

One of the most sensible posts I've seen in ages, should be made a sticky.

Seriously, there's enough of them already!

:pac:

T runner

Denerick wrote: »

Yes, really. Nationalism is a disgusting ideology responsible for the enslavement of millions.

Thats a very general statement! Are you saying that no nation has a right tos elf determination? Germany, France, Sweden etc nobody. Was Polish nationalism during the Soviet era a bad thing?

It is a creation of a ruling class whose sole aim was to manipulate and dictate to the naive and stupid.

That all depends on the type of government said nation employs in their country surely.

A well functioning republican nation should be a different country to a dictatorship.

'Self determination' is but a proxy term for 'self humiliation'.

Im afraid you are clutching at straws there. "self determination of Nations" is enshrined in the UN.

Nations are not of themselves a virtuous construct - on the contrary, actually. I don't care if an Irishman is in office in Dublin. I only care about whether he provides me sufficient liberty and security so that I can enjoy a good standard of living.

You should also be concerned that his principle concern is to your country and not to another. This is what happens in Imperial systems where teh subordinate nations are positioned only to help teh mother nation.

In short if you have an Englishman in charge in Dublin who is answerable to an Englishman in London. Does he not have a conflict of Interest and will the power structure not dictate that the Mother nation will dominate this interest.

I'd love it if an Irish politician had the balls to say 'What does 1916 mean to me? Not a lot really. Other than it left a legacy of violence and madness that is our general inheritance as a flawed species that purports to admire such rare cruelty and fanaticism'

Denerick, the violence comes from a stronger power occupying Ireland. That is your violence. There has been unrest here since Englands rule by conquest in the 16th century. Our imperial relationship with England did not benefit Ireland. Our current predicament aside we have been better off independednt as NI would be.

LordSutch

Jim236 wrote: »

Actually Sinn Féin are currently the largest party in the North, and going by recent polls may well be the third largest party ahead of Fianna Fáil in the South after the next election.

Lets wait and see, I remember well the lead up to the last General Election when such was the 'hype' that Sinn Fein were to take upwards of fifteen seats, and they ended up with only four!

murphaph

T runner wrote: »

I think the governments cock ups re banking sector, property bubble, mismanagement of currency change etc are more a reflection on our system of Government and particularly on FF. It is not indicative of an inability of Irish people to govern themselves.

It is an indictement of the electorate's ability to select a good government though, and the electorate are....the Irish people.

How do you reconcile repeatedly re-electing a party with known corruption in it's ranks? A party with a Taoiseach who can't remember where he got a load of money, then had the audacity to claim he won it on the horses! The Irish people elected this party of crooks time and time again.

If we were able to govern ourselves properly, we surely would have done so by now? I think a majority of the electorate are gullible fools to be honest.

T runner wrote: »

Remember after Greece and Ireland GB is next highest in debt ratios amongst rich Eurozone nations.

GB isn't a Eurozone nation (It's not even a nation either, just an island).