Any Journalism Students want an outlet?

tomED

To the mods : apologies if this is posted in the wrong location, I read the forum charter and felt this was a good location to post.

Basically this is a call out to any Journalism student who is looking for an outlet to get their work out there.

In the new year I will be launching a fashion website, so I'm looking for content for this website. Any fashion related article will be considered.

In the long run, if things go well - we'd hope to hire some full time staff - but initially it's very much early days.

The website has been running for years, but is now under new ownership. So it get's quite a lot of traffic in it's current form, but combined with a pretty decent marketing strategy we expect it to be a full time business within a few months.

If you've any questions etc, here is the place to ask I guess!

Thanks!

Bucklesman

Link to the site?

flogen

What fee are you offering people who get articles published or do you just want free work?

tomED

Bucklesman wrote: »

Link to the site?

At the moment, I'd prefer not to post the link as it's currently in it's old state. Therefore, it's going to change massively. We're currently putting the final touches for the new site and hope to launch in January. I can post a link then, or if you want to pm me, I can send it to you there.

flogen wrote: »

What fee are you offering people who get articles published or do you just want free work?

Initially, we are just offering an outlet for students to get some of their work published - for free!

However, if it goes as well as we'd hope it to - there will be full time postitions available and the quality of the content provided will be a key decider in who to offer the jobs to.

I personally hate these "work for free" scenarios, but I've been there before too and have had to work for free to get my leg up in the industry I wanted to work in.

I think it's really a great opportunity for a budding journalist to show what they've got and be in the running for a potential full time job.

flogen

tomED wrote: »

At the moment, I'd prefer not to post the link as it's currently in it's old state. Therefore, it's going to change massively. We're currently putting the final touches for the new site and hope to launch in January. I can post a link then, or if you want to pm me, I can send it to you there.

At the very least you should give the name of the site - you can't expect people to put themselves forward to write for a "fashion website" without any other details.

Initially, we are just offering an outlet for students to get some of their work published - for free!

Or they could just get a blog, start a site of their own, etc.?

However, if it goes as well as we'd hope it to - there will be full time postitions available and the quality of the content provided will be a key decider in who to offer the jobs to.

Can you be more specific than that? Have you got a timeframe or is that just an aspiration? What kind of funding or business model does the site have to be able to promise jobs in the future?

I personally hate these "work for free" scenarios

But you're happy to create one.

but I've been there before too and have had to work for free to get my leg up in the industry I wanted to work in.

I wrote for a few sites when I was starting in college but at the very least I got some stuff to review out of it - and I disagree that you "have to work for free" to get anywhere in journalism.

You have to be prepared to work for very little, yes, but if something is worth publishing it's worth paying for and in my experience having things published on an amateur site is about as valuable to a commissioning editor as having a blog, that is to say not very.

I think it's really a great opportunity for a budding journalist to show what they've got

Why don't you give people all the information available about the site and let them be the judge of whether it's a great opportunity or not?

and be in the running for a potential full time job.

So what, this is a "trial period" for a job that doesn't exist?

Sorry to give you a hard time but you're not the first person to come to this site looking for people to work for free for their site/magazine/whatever. Every time there's the same story about it being great for people's CV or whatever when in reality it is meaningless.

I've also had people ask me to work for free on the basis of some future prize - like shares in the site - but the chances of that every becoming a reality are slim to none.

I have an issue with people being invited to work for free and the fact that you target students shows what the problem is - you do so because you know no-one else would do it (because they know they can get paid for their work elsewhere).

For the record I run a tech site and I also have no budget; the difference is I don't ask anyone else to write for it because I can't pay them.

tomED

Ok, where to start!

I'll do my best to be as clear as I can, but please understand that there is only so much information that I'd like to give away publicly at the moment.

flogen wrote: »

At the very least you should give the name of the site - you can't expect people to put themselves forward to write for a "fashion website" without any other details.

I'm happy to give the site address to people privately - but I'd prefer not to give it publicly at this stage.

flogen wrote: »

Or they could just get a blog, start a site of their own, etc.?

Yes they could, but unlikely to get the exposure that this site will.

flogen wrote: »

Can you be more specific than that? Have you got a timeframe or is that just an aspiration? What kind of funding or business model does the site have to be able to promise jobs in the future?

Again not willing to disclose ALL this information publicly. But the question is a valid one.

Ok, to date as mentioned in the initial post - the site was running pretty well for quite a few years, but has been left idle for the past two years or so. The traffice is still quite high (approx. 4-6k uniques per day) for its current state. It ranks highly for fashion related terms in Google.

There are a few people behind this business, myself (my signature tells all there) and two other entreprenuers who have businesses in distribution and free newspaper publishing.

We don't have any unrealistic aspirations and since we've been running our own successful businesses for many years know how difficult it's going to be to get this off the ground.

Initially, we will be using our own resources and contacts in terms of advertising, promotion and day to day running of the business.

So for a business in this day and age, it's going to be set up in a pretty good state with a lot more than most business start ups would have.

flogen wrote: »

But you're happy to create one.

Absolutely - because I feel there are always people who could do with a break. I was one of those many years ago and if I didn't get the break, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

flogen wrote: »

I wrote for a few sites when I was starting in college but at the very least I got some stuff to review out of it.

I believe it takes a certain type of person to be interested in an opportunity like this. I've been there, you've been there and I'm sure you'd agree you learned a lot from it.

I bet the stuff you got to review wasn't the driving factor that led you to want to do this work experience, but more your inner drive to succeed. The "stuff" you got to review was I'm sure just an added bonus.

I won't make any promises of free stuff to review as I'm not that type of person. But needless to say, with the contacts we have and the type of businesses we are targeting there will of course be articles that will be based on reviews and of course - we will be giving them to the contributors. But at this stage it would be wrong of me to offer that as a carrot on a stick as we don't have anything like this right now.

flogen wrote: »

and I disagree that you "have to work for free" to get anywhere in journalism.

Hang on sec, please don't misquote me. I never once said that you "have to work for free to get anywhere in journalism".

I said that, I too in the past had to work for free to get a break. I don't think any industry is any different in this regard though. If you want to stand out from the rest, you show your experience.

flogen wrote: »

and in my experience having things published on an amateur site is about as valuable to a commissioning editor as having a blog, that is to say not very.

One things for sure - this is not going to be an amateur site and it will get a lot of exposure in it's field.

flogen wrote: »

Why don't you give people all the information available about the site and let them be the judge of whether it's a great opportunity or not?

As I mentioned in the initial post - the site is not complete and not ready to launch yet. The site in it's current form does not represent how we envisage the brand nor the business model. Therefore, nothing would be gained by publicly displaying this information here.

When the new site is ready to launch - I've no problem detailing it here. Or of course as I've mentioned, if you wish to pm me, I will disclose it privately.

flogen wrote: »

So what, this is a "trial period" for a job that doesn't exist?

Hmmm, there is no "trial period", because this isn't a trial of any sort. We are looking for content contributors who would be interested in getting their name out there as a contributor to a leading website in its field.

When we are in a position to hire someone full-time, we will look at our existing contributors first before seeking others. That's as much as I can promise.

flogen wrote: »

Sorry to give you a hard time but you're not the first person to come to this site looking for people to work for free for their site/magazine/whatever

Please don't apologise, it's given me a great platform to fully explain the opportunity.

I'm not in the business of slave labour and we certainly won't be looking for people to slave at a desk for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is not what we are looking for.

We're just looking for contributors who are interested in writing articles about fashion and would love somewhere to get it out there in the public domain.

We'll simple accept the articles and if they are good enough - post them them on the website with references to the author and their website if they so wish. Nothing more, nothing less.

To some this may seem like an appealing opportunity, to others - maybe not.

flogen wrote: »

Every time there's the same story about it being great for people's CV or whatever when in reality it is meaningless.

Well I disagree with you there. Obviously there are cases where it's a pointless task.

For example, when I started as a web designer, if I developed a fictional website, that sat on my computer at home, with no-one to see it - it wouldn't be any use to me on my CV.

However, by working for a company (for free) that allowed me to take their business ideas and put it online as the face of their company, stood to me massively. Not only did I get in front of people because of the work I had done, but I also learned a lot from it too.

Look we've been around the block for a while in terms of running our own profitable businesses. I've seen many ideas such like this come and go. I've been offered the chance to get involved in similar ideas many a time.

Personally, if I didn't think this was a massive opportunity - I wouldn't be bothering getting involved myself. That's about as blunt as I can get on that score.

flogen wrote: »

I've also had people ask me to work for free on the basis of some future prize - like shares in the site - but the chances of that every becoming a reality are slim to none.

We're never going to offer shares to anyone for this. The domain name itself is worth quite some money. So there's no way we would pass shares onto anyone in return for work.

The rest of us are bringing way too much to the table for that to even enter the realm of possibility.

flogen wrote: »

I have an issue with people being invited to work for free and the fact that you target students shows what the problem is - you do so because you know no-one else would do it (because they know they can get paid for their work elsewhere).

You make a lot of assumptions, but I guess that's because I'm trying not to give too much away!

There are a number of reasons why we would be approaching students.

1. We have approached other existing fashion journalists. But we feel we need more than one or two contributors

2. We feel that there will be some really talented students out there who we could potentially nab as our own before they get noticed - rough diamonds as such

3. Students will make up a large percentage of our target market - it would be good to have opinions from them rather than us middle-aged people all the time.

4. We spoke with other journalists who suggested targeting students to be contributors would be a good idea.

So it's not as simple as getting something for nothing. The business will launch in January with or without any student contributors full stop, so it's not something that is a neccessity for us to launch - but a scenario we'd like to explore.

flogen wrote: »

For the record I run a tech site and I also have no budget; the difference is I don't ask anyone else to write for it because I can't pay them.

Well we don't have a large budget, but we have a budget and to get this off the ground we feel we are lacking in certain areas, this being one of them.

If you can't see the opportunity that is there for someone, fair enough.

But I can and maybe it's the old school in me that believes you make your own luck. There are no sure bets in this - but if you're currently not getting a break or a job, what have you got to lose?

It's that black and white - there are absolutely no hidden agendas here. We're creating a business that we expect to do very well. We're not the type to write business plans by pulling figures out of the air - we're realistic business men and women who are looking forward to building a successful, profitable, but small company!

As soon as we start making money (which we don't expect to take long), we won't be expecting articles from anyone without a financial reward.

flogen

tomED wrote: »

I'm happy to give the site address to people privately - but I'd prefer not to give it publicly at this stage.

Again not willing to disclose ALL this information publicly. But the question is a valid one.

Ok, to date as mentioned in the initial post - the site was running pretty well for quite a few years, but has been left idle for the past two years or so. The traffice is still quite high (approx. 4-6k uniques per day) for its current state. It ranks highly for fashion related terms in Google.

These are all reasons why you should be singing from the rooftops about the site, even if it isn't how you want it to be. If it's under construction that's fine, putting a holding page up, but if it's got the reputation you suggest then it is surely a selling point when trying to get writers?

Yes they could, but unlikely to get the exposure that this site will.

That's debatable - even assuming that the site was as popular as you say it wouldn't take too long for a new site to compete with it once the work was done. I'd argue that might even give the individual more exposure, assuming they played it right, and an asset of their own down the line.

There are a few people behind this business, myself (my signature tells all there) and two other entreprenuers who have businesses in distribution and free newspaper publishing.

We don't have any unrealistic aspirations and since we've been running our own successful businesses for many years know how difficult it's going to be to get this off the ground.

Initially, we will be using our own resources and contacts in terms of advertising, promotion and day to day running of the business.

So for a business in this day and age, it's going to be set up in a pretty good state with a lot more than most business start ups would have.

So the business model is advertising-based?

Absolutely - because I feel there are always people who could do with a break. I was one of those many years ago and if I didn't get the break, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing.

Again, shouldn't you give people all the details here and let them decide if it's a good break or not?

I believe it takes a certain type of person to be interested in an opportunity like this. I've been there, you've been there and I'm sure you'd agree you learned a lot from it.

What kind of person do you think that is?

I bet the stuff you got to review wasn't the driving factor that led you to want to do this work experience, but more your inner drive to succeed. The "stuff" you got to review was I'm sure just an added bonus.

No, the driving factor was the misperception that I needed to write for free in order to get "real" work. When it came around to getting things published in a newspaper they couldn't have cared less what site I wrote for, all they cared about was the quality of the article I gave to them.

I won't make any promises of free stuff to review as I'm not that type of person. But needless to say, with the contacts we have and the type of businesses we are targeting there will of course be articles that will be based on reviews and of course - we will be giving them to the contributors. But at this stage it would be wrong of me to offer that as a carrot on a stick as we don't have anything like this right now.

I hate to be pedantic here but you are offering the "carrot on a stick" of a full time position down the line, which is something you can be equally unsure of.

I know you have not promised anything but you've clearly said there could be a job in it for one of the writers - yet you're unprepared to say there could be free stuff in it for them too?

Hang on sec, please don't misquote me. I never once said that you "have to work for free to get anywhere in journalism".

I said that, I too in the past had to work for free to get a break. I don't think any industry is any different in this regard though. If you want to stand out from the rest, you show your experience.

Apologies, you didn't - but you clearly suggested that it was a necessary step to further yourself in an industry.

One things for sure - this is not going to be an amateur site and it will get a lot of exposure in it's field.

OK - I look forward to finding out its name first and then I can see how it does over the next while.

As I mentioned in the initial post - the site is not complete and not ready to launch yet. The site in it's current form does not represent how we envisage the brand nor the business model. Therefore, nothing would be gained by publicly displaying this information here.

Except giving potential applicants some confidence in their decision.

When the new site is ready to launch - I've no problem detailing it here. Or of course as I've mentioned, if you wish to pm me, I will disclose it privately.

No, that's fine. I don't want to know what site it is for my sake, I just take issue with such a vague offer for people who are quite often taken advantage of because of their inexperience.

Hmmm, there is no "trial period", because this isn't a trial of any sort. We are looking for content contributors who would be interested in getting their name out there as a contributor to a leading website in its field.

When we are in a position to hire someone full-time, we will look at our existing contributors first before seeking others. That's as much as I can promise.

So it a try out for a future potential job. They may get to be published on a site as part of that but they are still writing now in the hope that it will be deemed good enough should a job ever be created.

Please don't apologise, it's given me a great platform to fully explain the opportunity.

I don't think you've fully explained anything.

I'm not in the business of slave labour and we certainly won't be looking for people to slave at a desk for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week. That is not what we are looking for.

We're just looking for contributors who are interested in writing articles about fashion and would love somewhere to get it out there in the public domain.

What do you call work that is unpaid but isn't for a voluntary group or charity?

Well I disagree with you there. Obviously there are cases where it's a pointless task.

For example, when I started as a web designer, if I developed a fictional website, that sat on my computer at home, with no-one to see it - it wouldn't be any use to me on my CV.

However, by working for a company (for free) that allowed me to take their business ideas and put it online as the face of their company, stood to me massively. Not only did I get in front of people because of the work I had done, but I also learned a lot from it too.

Journalism is not web design. In fact there is next to no comparison in the two when it comes to freelance work.

Getting an article commissioned is much easier than getting a website commission.

Look we've been around the block for a while in terms of running our own profitable businesses. I've seen many ideas such like this come and go. I've been offered the chance to get involved in similar ideas many a time.

Personally, if I didn't think this was a massive opportunity - I wouldn't be bothering getting involved myself. That's about as blunt as I can get on that score.

Again, surely such a massive opportunity is worth bigging up here. People are smart enough to understand when a site isn't quite ready or re-designed.

We're never going to offer shares to anyone for this. The domain name itself is worth quite some money. So there's no way we would pass shares onto anyone in return for work.

The rest of us are bringing way too much to the table for that to even enter the realm of possibility.

I didn't say you were going to do that, I just said it's one of the many offers I've gotten from people looking for me to work for free. All magic beans stuff.

You make a lot of assumptions, but I guess that's because I'm trying not to give too much away!

There are a number of reasons why we would be approaching students.

1. We have approached other existing fashion journalists. But we feel we need more than one or two contributors

And they're working for free?

2. We feel that there will be some really talented students out there who we could potentially nab as our own before they get noticed - rough diamonds as such

And you want to use their talent without giving them anything - other than "exposure" - in return?

3. Students will make up a large percentage of our target market - it would be good to have opinions from them rather than us middle-aged people all the time.

OK - it still doesn't explain why you aren't paying them.

So it's not as simple as getting something for nothing. The business will launch in January with or without any student contributors full stop, so it's not something that is a neccessity for us to launch - but a scenario we'd like to explore.

So it's their loss...

Well we don't have a large budget, but we have a budget and to get this off the ground we feel we are lacking in certain areas, this being one of them.

If you can't see the opportunity that is there for someone, fair enough.

How can I see an opportunity in something I know nothing about?

But I can and maybe it's the old school in me that believes you make your own luck. There are no sure bets in this - but if you're currently not getting a break or a job, what have you got to lose?

I agree, but I don't think you make your own luck by working for someone else for free. I'd be encouraging students to set up their own sites and build from there - at the very least it means they might make a few quid from the ads while also getting their name out there.

It's that black and white - there are absolutely no hidden agendas here. We're creating a business that we expect to do very well. We're not the type to write business plans by pulling figures out of the air - we're realistic business men and women who are looking forward to building a successful, profitable, but small company!

As soon as we start making money (which we don't expect to take long), we won't be expecting articles from anyone without a financial reward.

To be honest, this statement reeks.

As business people you should understand that you get what you pay for and people deserve to be rewarded - properly - for what they do.

If you don't think it will take long for the site to make money then surely you - as successful business people - could pool together a small editorial budget to pay for content until it begins to pay for itself.

Frankly it's irresponsible for you not to do that.

Just to be clear I've no opinion on how great or otherwise your site is/will/can be - partly because I don't know anything about it. My issue is with the targeting of students to provide free copy, which no matter what the situation, is unacceptable and exploitative.

tomED

flogen wrote: »

These are all reasons why you should be singing from the rooftops about the site, even if it isn't how you want it to be. If it's under construction that's fine, putting a holding page up, but if it's got the reputation you suggest then it is surely a selling point when trying to get writers?

Again, as stated many times now - I will release the information of the site to anyone who thinks they are interested in this opportunity privately.

There would be absolutely no benefit to the brand to release this publicly and as it does not represent what direction we are bringing the business, does not represent the oppurtunity either. Therefore I will not be posting this publicly.

flogen wrote: »

That's debatable - even assuming that the site was as popular as you say it wouldn't take too long for a new site to compete with it once the work was done. I'd argue that might even give the individual more exposure, assuming they played it right, and an asset of their own down the line.

I don't think it is to be honest. We know what exposure the site already gets, will potentially get in terms of online traffic and the exposure it will get to the general public.

An individual won't get more exposure than this without a lot of investment behind them.

flogen wrote: »

So the business model is advertising-based?

Not entirely, but there is certainly an element of advertisment involved.

flogen wrote: »

Again, shouldn't you give people all the details here and let them decide if it's a good break or not?

Seriously, why do you keep asking this. I've told you numerous times now, I will divulge this information privately.

flogen wrote: »

What kind of person do you think that is?

Someone who is driven to succeed and will take a risk to further their career.

Someone the opposite of you, judging by the negativity of your responses.

flogen wrote: »

No, the driving factor was the misperception that I needed to write for free in order to get "real" work. When it came around to getting things published in a newspaper they couldn't have cared less what site I wrote for, all they cared about was the quality of the article I gave to them.

So you feel your experience held no weight whatsoever..... well I don't know the situation, but sounds very naive of you to think that your past experience didn't count at all when being offered a job.

Or is it a job you have or are you freelance?

flogen wrote: »

I hate to be pedantic here but you are offering the "carrot on a stick" of a full time position down the line, which is something you can be equally unsure of.

I know you have not promised anything but you've clearly said there could be a job in it for one of the writers - yet you're unprepared to say there could be free stuff in it for them too?

Again, taking things out of context and construing it to come up with a response aimed at doing nothing but tearing apart my post.

Let's be pedantic so....

The point you picked up on, was unrelated to the "potential job" statement. It was clearly stating that we wouldn't be offering "freebies" or anything of the sort to anyone who is interested.

Now, to your point...

No - the carrot on the stick is NOT the "potential job" offer - the carrot on the stick is the opportunity for someone to get some experience and test their skills in the real world.

There is no job offer on the table, therefore it's not being offered as a carrot on a stick. If things go well, we'll be hiring more full time staff to write content so there is a potential job offer in the pipeline.

I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to decipher that from my posts.

flogen wrote: »

Apologies, you didn't - but you clearly suggested that it was a necessary step to further yourself in an industry.

Em no, I clearly stated that "I" had had to work for free in the past to further my career and that I don't think any other industry is any different.

And as someone who has been hiring and firing for many years, experience is the first thing I look for. If two potential candidates are on a level par in terms of skillsets, I'll take the one with the experience quicker than the one without.

That's just common sense...

flogen wrote: »

Except giving potential applicants some confidence in their decision.

And they'll have plenty of information given to them privately to make that decision.

flogen wrote: »

No, that's fine. I don't want to know what site it is for my sake, I just take issue with such a vague offer for people who are quite often taken advantage of because of their inexperience.

What's all this with taking advantage of people. I've constantly stated that I will dilvulge information privately, so anyone interested will have plenty of information to decide whether they are interested in the opportunity or not.

There are no hidden agendas - I've stated the offer - I think it's very clear. If anyone is interested and likes the idea of doing it they can chose what they'd like to do.

No-one is being taken advantage of. To suggest so is ridiculous.

flogen wrote: »

So it a try out for a future potential job. They may get to be published on a site as part of that but they are still writing now in the hope that it will be deemed good enough should a job ever be created.

Why do you keep going on about a try out? There isn't any "try out".

There are no job on offer. I think I've made that clear on numerous occassions now.

flogen wrote: »

What do you call work that is unpaid but isn't for a voluntary group or charity?

Well if it's not force upon them it could be called many things:

1. Work experience
2. Voluntary work (voluntary work doesn't only apply to groups or charities)
3. Overtime (for those on salaries)
4. Personal development
5. Housewife

Shall I go on??

flogen wrote: »

Journalism is not web design. In fact there is next to no comparison in the two when it comes to freelance work.

Getting an article commissioned is much easier than getting a website commission.

I never compared it... I gave an analogy.

Should I detail other examples to try explain it better for you?

flogen wrote: »

Again, surely such a massive opportunity is worth bigging up here. People are smart enough to understand when a site isn't quite ready or re-designed.

...............

flogen wrote: »

And they're working for free?

What do you think?

flogen wrote: »

And you want to use their talent without giving them anything - other than "exposure" - in return?

Yes - exposure and experience.

flogen wrote: »

OK - it still doesn't explain why you aren't paying them.

Put simply, it's not a job...

flogen wrote: »

So it's their loss...

If they're as negative as you, yes they'd probably look at it as "their loss".

For me, someone who is always positive - I'd look at it as a chance to make a name for myself and look beyond a financial reward.

flogen wrote: »

How can I see an opportunity in something I know nothing about?

Well you can't see the opportunity because you can't get over the idea that some people would be happy to work for free in order to further their careers.

But it's very simple really. All you have to do is first let me know that the idea of writing articles for a fashion website for free is something that appeals to you.

I will then let you know the ins and outs of what we are planning etc and then you can make the decision if it's something that still interests you or not.

flogen wrote: »

I agree, but I don't think you make your own luck by working for someone else for free.

That depends on what way you look at it.

Working for free in a job with absolutely no propects of furthering you career, learning something new or not gaining any experience would be pointless. There's no hope of you getting lucky and ending up with the career you want.

But working for a business that you think can achieve great things and there is the potential of being involved in that success with little investment is making your own luck in my opinion. As the old saying goes... "if you're not in, you can't win".

flogen wrote: »

I'd be encouraging students to set up their own sites and build from there - at the very least it means they might make a few quid from the ads while also getting their name out there.

Yes I wouldn't disagree with you - that would definitely be a good approach.

But personally, that wouldn't appeal to me - to have a blog that averages no more than a couple of hundred uniques a day (which most will be lucky to get). I'd much prefer to be writing for a website that get's some sort of exposure. I would of course keep my own website on the side too.

But the reality is that they won't ever get the exposure that they could get from our site. It will most likely take longer to make a name for yourself and therefore it would be a slow route to being noticed.

flogen wrote: »

To be honest, this statement reeks.

That's only because you still look at the "job opportunity" as opposed to the "potential opportunity" for someone.

flogen wrote: »

As business people you should understand that you get what you pay for

I don't entirely agree with this and that's totally because of my business experience.

In my industry in particular there are many fly-by-nights that offer cheap and nasty web sites for a fraction of the cost we would charge. Most don't last very long because the quality is evident.

However, I've also seen some really talented companies start at amazingly low prices for the quality they provide. And they start at those prices because everyone has got to start somewhere and generate business!

I also don't believe every student coming out of college is going to be completely useless. I believe that there will be plenty of budding jounalists who will come out of college well capable of being able to write great content, but with the current climate, not able to get a job.

flogen wrote: »

and people deserve to be rewarded - properly - for what they do.

Yes they do...

flogen wrote: »

If you don't think it will take long for the site to make money then surely you - as successful business people - could pool together a small editorial budget to pay for content until it begins to pay for itself.

Frankly it's irresponsible for you not to do that.

We do have an editorial budget............. making assumptions again.

flogen wrote: »

Just to be clear I've no opinion on how great or otherwise your site is/will/can be - partly because I don't know anything about it. My issue is with the targeting of students to provide free copy, which no matter what the situation, is unacceptable and exploitative.

I have to say I do admire how protective you are being over students.

However, it's clear from this last response that you are just hell bent on denying students an opportunity such as this because you personally feel it's exploitive, yet as you say yourself, you don't know how great the offer actually is.

I personally think it's quite clear what's on offer and as stated many times - I will disclose the rest of the information to anyone genuinely interested in this opportunity.

Let me be very clear, no-one is being asked to do anything they don't want to do, nor will anyone be tied into any contracts of any sort. Therefore anyone who is interested in this, will be doing so at their own free will.

What do they get in return, well the offer is quite clear if you read the initial post. I'll reiterate it again at the end of this response.

At your stage in your career, it's clear that you don't need breaks like this - but some students may feel that they do and this is one.

I know when I started I needed breaks to get where I am. I could have easily ignored the breaks I got, but then I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. I took those risks, some paid off, some didn't - that suits me because I knew what I was getting myself into.

I also know that when I finished work at the end of the day in my "work experience" position I didn't stop working. I would go home and work to my hearts content on silly things just to constantly improve my skills. If I had the opportunity to post my work somewhere - I would have done it.

So whatever your agenda is, (I still don't know) I believe there are students out there that would like this opportunity and that is who we are targeting.

Someone that loves fashion, loves to write and enjoy getting their work published. If something comes of it, brilliant, if nothing comes of it, well at least they had fun doing it and they've something to add to their CV.

Oh and if you think offering a student an opportunity like this is explotive well that's your opinion. If I was the type to be easily offended, I would take offence to that.

But I try to see the positive side of things where ever I can, you are clearly the opposite and prefer to point out the negatives. Maybe that's something that's needed to be a Journalist?

So to categorically re-state this offer again for the benefit of Flogen:

This is an opportunity for a student who has an interest in fashion to write articles for a popular Irish fashion website.

If you think you'd be interested in getting your articles on this website, pm me and I'll fill you in on all the details.

flogen

tomED wrote: »

Again, as stated many times now - I will release the information of the site to anyone who thinks they are interested in this opportunity privately.

There would be absolutely no benefit to the brand to release this publicly and as it does not represent what direction we are bringing the business, does not represent the oppurtunity either. Therefore I will not be posting this publicly.

Fair enough.

I don't think it is to be honest. We know what exposure the site already gets, will potentially get in terms of online traffic and the exposure it will get to the general public.

An individual won't get more exposure than this without a lot of investment behind them.

That's assuming an editor is interested in how many people read someone's article, as opposed to the quality of it, the initiative they took in starting their career etc.

Someone who is driven to succeed and will take a risk to further their career.

Someone the opposite of you, judging by the negativity of your responses.

Oh give me a break. Since when does risk taking equate to working for someone else for free?

So you feel your experience held no weight whatsoever..... well I don't know the situation, but sounds very naive of you to think that your past experience didn't count at all when being offered a job.

Or is it a job you have or are you freelance?

I'm freelance and I can tell you will every certainty that it made no difference to me getting my first articles published in national newspapers.

Again, taking things out of context and construing it to come up with a response aimed at doing nothing but tearing apart my post.

Let's be pedantic so....

The point you picked up on, was unrelated to the "potential job" statement. It was clearly stating that we wouldn't be offering "freebies" or anything of the sort to anyone who is interested.

Now, to your point...

But you wouldn't say that such things were even possible... you did say a job was though. Is one more likely than the other?

No - the carrot on the stick is NOT the "potential job" offer - the carrot on the stick is the opportunity for someone to get some experience and test their skills in the real world.

So the experience they'll have writing for the website will be similar to the one they'd have writing for a newspaper or magazine?

There is no job offer on the table, therefore it's not being offered as a carrot on a stick. If things go well, we'll be hiring more full time staff to write content so there is a potential job offer in the pipeline.

I don't think you need to be a rocket scientist to decipher that from my posts.

I never said there was a job on the table, I said that you were suggesting there could be which would be an obvious carrot for a student who believes that.

Em no, I clearly stated that "I" had had to work for free in the past to further my career and that I don't think any other industry is any different.

So you had to work for free, you think other industries are the same but you never suggested or implied people had to work for free to get somewhere in journalism? OK.

And as someone who has been hiring and firing for many years, experience is the first thing I look for. If two potential candidates are on a level par in terms of skillsets, I'll take the one with the experience quicker than the one without.

That's just common sense...

Of course but in my experience work done for free in journalism is very rarely work worth talking about. The only places I'd say it would be worth writing for for free if I was advising a student are the established mainstream publications - the irony is they're the ones that always pay.

What's all this with taking advantage of people. I've constantly stated that I will dilvulge information privately, so anyone interested will have plenty of information to decide whether they are interested in the opportunity or not.

There are no hidden agendas - I've stated the offer - I think it's very clear. If anyone is interested and likes the idea of doing it they can chose what they'd like to do.

No-one is being taken advantage of. To suggest so is ridiculous.

I believe you are taking advantage of people's naivety and inexperience by suggesting that working for you for free would be worth anything or that it is the way people need to go to get somewhere in journalism.

Well if it's not force upon them it could be called many things:

1. Work experience
2. Voluntary work (voluntary work doesn't only apply to groups or charities)
3. Overtime (for those on salaries)
4. Personal development
5. Housewife

Shall I go on??

So which one is the opportunity you offer?

I never compared it... I gave an analogy.

Should I detail other examples to try explain it better for you?

So you gave an example to show the similarities between the situation you were in and the situation a student journalist might be in but you weren't comparing the two. OK.

What do you think?

I think you've not answered the question.

Yes - exposure and experience.

Again, I'd like to find out more about the experience they'd gain. Maybe you can outline that here.

If they're as negative as you, yes they'd probably look at it as "their loss".

For me, someone who is always positive - I'd look at it as a chance to make a name for myself and look beyond a financial reward.

It's quite possible to do both things at once, though not with your site I suppose.

Well you can't see the opportunity because you can't get over the idea that some people would be happy to work for free in order to further their careers.

No, I can't get over the idea that someone people would be happy to have people work for free for them in order to further their careers. Then again I do have a hard time understanding how the minds of some publishers work.

But working for a business that you think can achieve great things and there is the potential of being involved in that success with little investment is making your own luck in my opinion. As the old saying goes... "if you're not in, you can't win".

Win what?

Yes I wouldn't disagree with you - that would definitely be a good approach.

But personally, that wouldn't appeal to me - to have a blog that averages no more than a couple of hundred uniques a day (which most will be lucky to get). I'd much prefer to be writing for a website that get's some sort of exposure. I would of course keep my own website on the side too.

But the reality is that they won't ever get the exposure that they could get from our site. It will most likely take longer to make a name for yourself and therefore it would be a slow route to being noticed.

There's one sure-fire way to get noticed quickly and that's pitching to a relevant editor. They pay too, amazingly.

I don't entirely agree with this and that's totally because of my business experience.

In my industry in particular there are many fly-by-nights that offer cheap and nasty web sites for a fraction of the cost we would charge. Most don't last very long because the quality is evident.

However, I've also seen some really talented companies start at amazingly low prices for the quality they provide. And they start at those prices because everyone has got to start somewhere and generate business!

That's a nice analogy (and not a comparison, of course). Shame it has no relevance to the journalism industry.

I also don't believe every student coming out of college is going to be completely useless. I believe that there will be plenty of budding jounalists who will come out of college well capable of being able to write great content, but with the current climate, not able to get a job.

How much do you actually know about the journalism industry? There have been very few jobs available in Ireland for graduates for many years now; there have been plenty of opportunities for people willing to freelance however. The current climate has not changed that and a living can still be made. Not a great one, it has to be said, but a living nonetheless.

We do have an editorial budget............. making assumptions again.

Sorry, when I saw that you were looking for editorial content but were unwilling to pay anything for it I assumed it was because you didn't allocate a budget to it.

I have to say I do admire how protective you are being over students.

However, it's clear from this last response that you are just hell bent on denying students an opportunity such as this because you personally feel it's exploitive, yet as you say yourself, you don't know how great the offer actually is.

If I was hell bent on denying students an opportunity I would have deleted this thread days ago - I didn't for a number of reasons not least because I know that people can make their own minds up on whether this is good for them or not.

My responses are only here to ask you to justify what you're doing and to make the point to those who don't already know that they don't need to work for free. I'm also questioning the value of writing for a website like this as a way to gain "experience" because I've yet to see a situation where that actually is the case.

tomED

flogen wrote: »

That's assuming an editor is interested in how many people read someone's article, as opposed to the quality of it, the initiative they took in starting their career etc.

Emm no, that's assuming nothing - I know what kind of traffic and expsoure the site will get on day one. No assumptions - pure facts.

flogen wrote: »

Oh give me a break. Since when does risk taking equate to working for someone else for free?

It equates to it when someone is willing to put in time for free in order to do something that may help their future career. That's a risk.

flogen wrote: »

I'm freelance and I can tell you will every certainty that it made no difference to me getting my first articles published in national newspapers.

Well this is something we'll always disagree on - I believe that ANY decision you make as you climb the ladder stands to you for the job you end up working in. If you think otherwise, it's terribly naive.

flogen wrote: »

But you wouldn't say that such things were even possible... you did say a job was though. Is one more likely than the other?

I think that's clear from the posts I've made a this stage - you don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out - I still don't see why you want to complicate this.

flogen wrote: »

So the experience they'll have writing for the website will be similar to the one they'd have writing for a newspaper or magazine?

Can you tell me where I said that?
I never compared anything - it's simply a statement...

flogen wrote: »

I never said there was a job on the table, I said that you were suggesting there could be which would be an obvious carrot for a student who believes that.

No, but you suggested that it was a "try out" for a potential job. Which it's quite clearly not.

flogen wrote: »

So you had to work for free, you think other industries are the same but you never suggested or implied people had to work for free to get somewhere in journalism? OK.

No and I'd ask you to look over the post and tell me different.

flogen wrote: »

Of course but in my experience work done for free in journalism is very rarely work worth talking about.

Well that's your experience, I don't believe everyone is the same.

flogen wrote: »

The only places I'd say it would be worth writing for for free if I was advising a student are the established mainstream publications - the irony is they're the ones that always pay.

Well thank God for that, sanity prevails...

So, you would suggest to a student that it's worthwhile writing for free, albeit with mainstream publications.

That's fair enough that you feel that way, but I don't see why it's any different for someone to take a chance with an unknown to get experience if they're not getting a break with mainstream publications.

Something we clearly disagree on.

flogen wrote: »

I believe you are taking advantage of people's naivety and inexperience by suggesting that working for you for free would be worth anything or that it is the way people need to go to get somewhere in journalism.

You believe I'm taking advantage of someone, yet you know nothing about what is on offer which you constantly state. That's very rich of you.

I've constantly stated that there will be no taking advantage and no-one will be putting a gun to anyones head.

I don't believe students will be that naive - if they are, they're not really the people we're looking for.

flogen wrote: »

So which one is the opportunity you offer?

The oppurtunity offers two of these actually, 1 & 4.

flogen wrote: »

So you gave an example to show the similarities between the situation you were in and the situation a student journalist might be in but you weren't comparing the two. OK.

Yep and it's called an analogy. I thought a journalist would have understood the difference between a comparison and an analogy...

flogen wrote: »

I think you've not answered the question.

Well you have been making assumptions on everything else, I'm sure you can make another one with this...

flogen wrote: »

Again, I'd like to find out more about the experience they'd gain. Maybe you can outline that here.

I think I've made it quite clear at this stage. Maybe others can jump in and tell us what parts they don't understand.

Or better still, what experience do YOU think you could gain from taking part in something like this?

flogen wrote: »

It's quite possible to do both things at once, though not with your site I suppose.

Yes I can't disgree it's possible - but not everyone will have those opportunites and this is calling out to those who don't.

flogen wrote: »

No, I can't get over the idea that someone people would be happy to have people work for free for them in order to further their careers. Then again I do have a hard time understanding how the minds of some publishers work.

Well did you ever think you have been lucky in your career? That you've never needed an opportunity like this?

Not everyone is in the same boat as you Adam, that's life.

If someone is interested in working for free to help themselves grow, I'm happy to give them the opportunity.

flogen wrote: »

Win what?

That's up to the individual to decide - you could help advise them and respond to my question above about what they could gain from something like this.

flogen wrote: »

There's one sure-fire way to get noticed quickly and that's pitching to a relevant editor. They pay too, amazingly.

That's great - I'm sure that lots of people will get their work published so.....
C'mon a dose or reality would help a little.

Of course they could do this - but quite clearly not everyone is going to succeed with this approach.

flogen wrote: »

That's a nice analogy (and not a comparison, of course). Shame it has no relevance to the journalism industry.

Yeah, that's because it's an analogy and a fact that follows through in every industry.

I'm sure they are plenty of Journalists that you know of that are getting very well paid for work that you would feel is mediocre and others that you respect that just aren't getting the breaks.

flogen wrote: »

How much do you actually know about the journalism industry? There have been very few jobs available in Ireland for graduates for many years now; there have been plenty of opportunities for people willing to freelance however. The current climate has not changed that and a living can still be made. Not a great one, it has to be said, but a living nonetheless.

Whether I know much about the journalism industry is irrelevant.

I stated that I believe there are students that are well capable of writing decent quality articles and not be able to get a job when they get out. So I clearly wasn't wrong there....

Since this is the case, I don't see why someone who really wants to work in this industry would look at this and see it as a rotten opportunity.

To think that the current economical climate hasn't affected the journalism industry is yet again massively naive.

It's quite easy to do a search on the web and see how many publishing houses, magazines, newspapers have gone out of business in the past 2-3 years. Therefore it has an impact on how many opportunities there are for journalists looking for work.

flogen wrote: »

Sorry, when I saw that you were looking for editorial content but were unwilling to pay anything for it I assumed it was because you didn't allocate a budget to it.

Yes, you like to assume things a lot...

flogen wrote: »

If I was hell bent on denying students an opportunity I would have deleted this thread days ago - I didn't for a number of reasons not least because I know that people can make their own minds up on whether this is good for them or not.

Do you really think I would be offended if you did? I clearly presented a message at the top of the OP that I was happy for you to delete it if it wasn't allowed.

flogen wrote: »

My responses are only here to ask you to justify what you're doing and to make the point to those who don't already know that they don't need to work for free. I'm also questioning the value of writing for a website like this as a way to gain "experience" because I've yet to see a situation where that actually is the case.

Ah but you haven't.

Your responses (apart from the first one) have been nothing but an attempt to vent your anger towards people you feel are taking advantage of poor unwitting students.

Your agenda as you keep stating was to prevent students naivity being taken advantage of, yet not once have you asked me to privately disclose the opportunity to you in private so that you could make an informed response as to what potential there is (if any in your opinion) to someone who is interested in getting involved in something like this.

Not once did you outline the potential benefits a student could get, not once did you state the any potential negative effects it could have, you've just gone for the juggler from the outset.

If you don't feel there are any benefits of taking this approach to getting involved in journalism - could you not just have said your reasons why after you totally understand what's on offer?

I just don't get it Adam. You're there, many students aren't. In all the businesses I'm involved in, we get CV's every week from students who want to work for free to get the experience they need to further their careers.

Would you not spend more time advising what approach you think they should take rather than misquoting and looking for petty little holes in my statements?


Not everyone that starts out in journalism will end up being journalists. Maybe this is just an opportunity to see if they really want to do this job for some people.

I just don't get you. Maybe it's because you've been a journalist so long that you've become a massive cynic, so much so that you just can't see this for what it is.

flogen

tomED wrote: »

Emm no, that's assuming nothing - I know what kind of traffic and expsoure the site will get on day one. No assumptions - pure facts.

Yes it is - it's assuming that that's what an editor cares about, as opposed to the quality of someone's writing.

It equates to it when someone is willing to put in time for free in order to do something that may help their future career. That's a risk.

A fairly silly risk if you ask me, given that any aspiring journalist can help their career and get paid for it at the same time.

Well this is something we'll always disagree on - I believe that ANY decision you make as you climb the ladder stands to you for the job you end up working in.

Even the bad ones? I suppose people can learn from their mistakes, which is what I did in terms of writing for free. I've already explained what I learned here.

Can you tell me where I said that?
I never compared anything - it's simply a statement...

I never suggested that you said that, I'm just trying to get a handle on the 'experience' they'll gain by writing for your website compared to the real world.

No and I'd ask you to look over the post and tell me different.

You said you had to and you didn't think other industries were any different.

Well that's your experience, I don't believe everyone is the same.

OK

Well thank God for that, sanity prevails...

So, you would suggest to a student that it's worthwhile writing for free, albeit with mainstream publications.

That's fair enough that you feel that way, but I don't see why it's any different for someone to take a chance with an unknown to get experience if they're not getting a break with mainstream publications.

If I was advise a student to write for free for anyone it would be for the publications that always pay. The fact that they're mainstream and the fact that they value contributions enough to pay for them is not a coincidence.

You believe I'm taking advantage of someone, yet you know nothing about what is on offer which you constantly state. That's very rich of you.

I've constantly stated that there will be no taking advantage and no-one will be putting a gun to anyones head.

I don't believe students will be that naive - if they are, they're not really the people we're looking for.

You don't have to force someone to do something to take advantage of them; what you're doing is implying that writing for you for free is going to improve their chances of getting real work when you can't even tell me how the 'experience' they have will be similar to the one they'd find in a real publication.

And I know you keep trying to argue otherwise but you've clearly stated that you think working for free is a good way to get a foothold in an industry, I'm stating that it's not in journalism at least.

The oppurtunity offers two of these actually, 1 & 4.

Great - so what experience will they gain (beyond being able to say they have work published online) and how will they develop as journalists?

Yep and it's called an analogy. I thought a journalist would have understood the difference between a comparison and an analogy...

Very nice. If you want to keep dancing around what you implied that's fine. Everyone can read.

Well you have been making assumptions on everything else, I'm sure you can make another one with this...

Still no answer.

I think I've made it quite clear at this stage. Maybe others can jump in and tell us what parts they don't understand.

I don't think you have, unless they experience they gain is in getting their work published on a website. For the record, that's not experience, at least not one that truly matters for people wanting to better themselves as journalists.

Or better still, what experience do YOU think you could gain from taking part in something like this?

This highlights the core of my problem with this whole thing. I've seen a lot of cases of business people setting up websites in recent times and assuming they can be publishers. The problem is they don't know anything about journalism or what they should be offering the journalists that write for them.

That goes beyond money too - it's about this assumption that content will just be good because you want it to be good.

Let me ask you this and it will go some way to showing you what I mean.

Is there and editorial structure in place in the website and if so how will that apply to contributors?

Yes I can't disgree it's possible - but not everyone will have those opportunites and this is calling out to those who don't.

You keep saying I assume things but I think you'll allow me this one at least - every journalist student today has an e-mail account. They also have access to newspapers.

That's the only opportunity they need, that and a brain. You just need contact details for an editor and an idea, then you can pitch. That's what I did when I was in college. It was harder than it is now but it worked and I got published and paid.

I never had to tell them I wrote for website X or Y, I just had to tell them who and what I was (a student journalist). I don't think the first editors I dealt with even asked for examples of printed work if I'm honest and if they did I would have pointed them to the work I did on my college newspaper and not a website.

Well did you ever think you have been lucky in your career? That you've never needed an opportunity like this?

Not everyone is in the same boat as you Adam, that's life.

I'm sure you'll agree that opportunities only matter if you take them and any journalist or aspiring journalist has an opportunity at any time to get published and paid if they try hard enough.

Luck is when you pitch something to the right editor at the right time; the rest is hard work.

[quote[]If someone is interested in working for free to help themselves grow, I'm happy to give them the opportunity.[/quote]

That's fine - I'm just pointing out that they can work for money to help grow themselves too.

That's up to the individual to decide - you could help advise them and respond to my question above about what they could gain from something like this.

I've already stated what I think student journalists should do, in this post and previous ones.

That's great - I'm sure that lots of people will get their work published so.....
C'mon a dose or reality would help a little.

You don't think that's realistic? If they're a half decent writer with a half decent idea and enough drive to send and chase up e-mails they will get published. If they're not there's no hope for them so they may as well give up now.

The trick isn't getting published. It's getting published regularly.

Of course they could do this - but quite clearly not everyone is going to succeed with this approach.

Why not? It's not hard.

Yeah, that's because it's an analogy and a fact that follows through in every industry.

I'm sure they are plenty of Journalists that you know of that are getting very well paid for work that you would feel is mediocre and others that you respect that just aren't getting the breaks.

Journalism is a fairly democratic industry, in its own way. Of course there are writers that I think are getting paid more than they're worth - there are some that I think aren't worth much at all. The same is true the other way around.

However clearly there are enough people out there who think otherwise, which justifies their inflated salaries.

The overriding point of it all is that they all get paid something, however. That's because there is a general recognition in the reputable part of the industry that if you think something is worth publishing it's worth paying for.

Whether I know much about the journalism industry is irrelevant.

I disagree.

I stated that I believe there are students that are well capable of writing decent quality articles and not be able to get a job when they get out. So I clearly wasn't wrong there....

A job, maybe. But if a journalist student leaves college expecting to get a job they have been badly prepared by their lecturers. As for work, a decent writer will always get work (that pays).

Since this is the case, I don't see why someone who really wants to work in this industry would look at this and see it as a rotten opportunity.

To think that the current economical climate hasn't affected the journalism industry is yet again massively naive.

It's quite easy to do a search on the web and see how many publishing houses, magazines, newspapers have gone out of business in the past 2-3 years. Therefore it has an impact on how many opportunities there are for journalists looking for work.

I never said it hasn't affected the industry - I said it has not changed the fact that people can still get commissioned and still make a living from journalism.

The downturn has done a lot things to journalism - it has forced newspapers under and forced others to cut rates - but most publications still pay. The ones that don't aren't worth writing for.

Do you really think I would be offended if you did? I clearly presented a message at the top of the OP that I was happy for you to delete it if it wasn't allowed.

I didn't keep it here to spare you offence, I kept it here so people could decide if the opportunity was for them.

Ah but you haven't.

Your responses (apart from the first one) have been nothing but an attempt to vent your anger towards people you feel are taking advantage of poor unwitting students.

Your agenda as you keep stating was to prevent students naivity being taken advantage of, yet not once have you asked me to privately disclose the opportunity to you in private so that you could make an informed response as to what potential there is (if any in your opinion) to someone who is interested in getting involved in something like this.

Firstly, I take issue with you being willing to disclose details privately but not publicly as if this is some kind of state secret that actually matters to anyone but yourself.

Secondly, it doesn't matter what the website is or how popular it is. My issue is that you are looking for people to write for free and you are dangling some vague notion of "experience" in front of them with no actual substance behind it.

Across all of this you are suggesting that many students won't have a chance to get paid work and have suggested that working for free is a good idea for them which is just plain wrong.

Not once did you outline the potential benefits a student could get, not once did you state the any potential negative effects it could have, you've just gone for the juggler from the outset.

I don't see any potential benefits beyond what a well-run blog would offer them.

As for potential negatives I think I've made that very clear. I feel they would be giving their work away for nothing when they could be getting paid for it (assuming it's any use). It's unlikely that writing for a site for free will damage their career - beyond the fact that it sucks up the time during which they could be doing real work - but that doesn't make it a good idea.

If you don't feel there are any benefits of taking this approach to getting involved in journalism - could you not just have said your reasons why after you totally understand what's on offer?

I'm basing my view on the information you've decided fit to share publicly. That is that it's a website with a lot of hits and it will publish people's work but not pay them.

There's nothing more to it than that.

I just don't get it Adam. You're there, many students aren't. In all the businesses I'm involved in, we get CV's every week from students who want to work for free to get the experience they need to further their careers.

Would you not spend more time advising what approach you think they should take rather than misquoting and looking for petty little holes in my statements?

You say that like I'm the editor of The Irish Times or something.

It's not too long ago since I was a student and I'm giving my experience when it comes to stuff like this. don't feel I'm 'there' yet, 'there' being where I want to be in terms of my overall career, but I do know that no-one should work for free.

I've already outlined what I think students should do to get a break, here and in other places.

Not everyone that starts out in journalism will end up being journalists. Maybe this is just an opportunity to see if they really want to do this job for some people.

I've asked already but I'll ask again - how close is the experience you offer to the one they'll get in a real publication? How will they have a better idea as to whether journalism is for them once they've written for your site?

I just don't get you. Maybe it's because you've been a journalist so long that you've become a massive cynic, so much so that you just can't see this for what it is.

My cynicism here has nothing to do with my career; it's to do with this magic beans offer you're making.

All you seem to be offering people is a place to have their work hosted. You call that "experience" but it's nothing of the sort.

I feel we're going around in circles here some what so I'm not going to keep replying like this - I would like to know more about the experience they'll gain and maybe you can outline that here.

People can decide for themselves if this is something they want to be involved in; I just want them to be clear that there are (in my opinion) far better ways of getting ahead in the industry.

tomED

flogen wrote: »

Yes it is - it's assuming that that's what an editor cares about, as opposed to the quality of someone's writing.

I think you're getting your wires crossed, unsurprisingly again.

I'm talking about the exposure - if someone becomes known as an authority in their field, they will get more opportunities because of this exposure. It has nothing to do with how an editor will view them, that is totally unrelated.

If a publication thinks that a particular writer will have a mass readership because of their profile and therefore lead to more sales, they are more likely compromise on the quality, depending on the publication of course, just to have the name associated with their brand.

We see it all the time in newspapers etc.

flogen wrote: »

A fairly silly risk if you ask me, given that any aspiring journalist can help their career and get paid for it at the same time.

And that's your opinion - that's fair enough.

But you could have taken an opportunity like this to explain to potential interested writers as to how to go about it - rather than just looking for ways to slate this offer.

flogen wrote: »

Even the bad ones? I suppose people can learn from their mistakes, which is what I did in terms of writing for free. I've already explained what I learned here.

More so the bad ones in fact. You obviously learned a lot from your experience which has made you into the type of professional you are now.

flogen wrote: »

I never suggested that you said that, I'm just trying to get a handle on the 'experience' they'll gain by writing for your website compared to the real world.

Ok, well it looks like a suggestion to me.

Why don't you give students an idea of what they could possibly gain experience wise since you're the experienced one?

I think most people will be able to get an idea of what experience they can gain.

flogen wrote: »

You said you had to and you didn't think other industries were any different.

Nope, if you read over the post again, I never once implied that you "had to work for free to get somewhere in journalism". That's you taking things out of content again.

I simply said I in the past had worked for free and that it stood to me greatly in terms of where I am today. I never said "had to" do anything, nor did I say you "had to" do anything to achieve anything.

Again I think that's quite clear - and yet another attempt by you to just take a swipe for no reason other than being hell bent on bringing this into a handbags discussion.

flogen wrote: »

If I was advise a student to write for free for anyone it would be for the publications that always pay.

Great, at least this is something positive from you. Now, could you spare a minute to explain to students how they go about this?

flogen wrote: »

The fact that they're mainstream and the fact that they value contributions enough to pay for them is not a coincidence.

That's very debatable.

flogen wrote: »

You don't have to force someone to do something to take advantage of them; what you're doing is implying that writing for you for free is going to improve their chances of getting real work when you can't even tell me how the 'experience' they have will be similar to the one they'd find in a real publication.

And I know you keep trying to argue otherwise but you've clearly stated that you think working for free is a good way to get a foothold in an industry, I'm stating that it's not in journalism at least.

Oh for god sake, give me a break will ye.

Firstly, I never implied anything about writing for free - do you really think students are as naive as you seem to be?

And as a matter of fact, it doesn't matter what industry you are in, work experience stands to you regardless.

flogen wrote: »

Great - so what experience will they gain (beyond being able to say they have work published online)

The naivety shines through again. You can't seem to be able to see past the end of your nose Adam.

Work experience is not only about improving one particular skill - it helps you improve so much more than that.

Let's give an example just to try and make it clearer for you as you really seem to be missing the whole concept of work experience.

If I take someone on in my main business on work experience, they learn many different efficiencies from:

1. How to deal with customers
2. How to interact with other members of staff
3. How to enforce the brand image of the company
4. How professional companies deal with crisis management

The list goes on and on before you even start to think about web development.

I'm sure if you took away the negative view you had of this, you could easily put a list of things together that you think a student could possibly gain from this.

And after I've spoken with any potential contributor about what we are about, they could easily come up with their own list of what else they could gain experience wise.

flogen wrote: »

and how will they develop as journalists?

Well you could possibly add something here.

I would assume that once you've left college and got your degree as a jounalist, you're out in the big bad world. So therefore, your development as a journalist comes down to what interests you, what journalists you like to read, what writing style you like etc etc.

That simply has nothing to do with us, that's a personal development issue.

flogen wrote: »

Very nice. If you want to keep dancing around what you implied that's fine.

LMAO - You're the one that's doing the dancing not me. You were the one twisting words trying to suggest that I made a comparison when I didn't...

flogen wrote: »

Everyone can read.

Hmmm, well we all know that's not the case...

But I do hope that the people reading this are intelligent enough to read it.

I'd also expect journalism students to be able to instantly see what's on offer.

flogen wrote: »

Still no answer.

Well for me the answer is quite obvious and to anyone else reading I think they'll know the answer. So if it's only for the benefit of you, I'll let you make your own assumptions since you like that to do that a lot.

flogen wrote: »

I don't think you have, unless they experience they gain is in getting their work published on a website.

Well we'll just have to disagree on that then won't we.

I think most people here will see that you are just being difficult and that's as much contribution you have to give.

flogen wrote: »

For the record, that's not experience, at least not one that truly matters for people wanting to better themselves as journalists.

Well as I explained above, experience can be gained in many ways through work experience.

Everyone needs to practice to perfect their skill. If you want to practice at home without getting any recognition, fair enough - if you want people to see your work, here's an outlet.

flogen wrote: »

This highlights the core of my problem with this whole thing. I've seen a lot of cases of business people setting up websites in recent times and assuming they can be publishers.

And this highlights the core of my problem with your constant negative feedback aimed solely at venting your anger at those you've encountered in the past.

You don't want to know the information about the business, the information I don't want to present publicly, so therefore you don't know and can't comment on the "business people" involved...

flogen wrote: »

The problem is they don't know anything about journalism or what they should be offering the journalists that write for them.

Hmmm..... assumptions again....

And I think I need to point it out again, we are not relying on students or free contributors for this website. We have the resources their. We want more and we want to see if there is an interest.

As mentioned way up this thread, we've also spoke with other journalists who have recommended this to us.

If I thought it was going to be this much hassle to offer students an outlet, I wouldn't have bothered.

However, the constant negativity from you and how you can't see past the end of your nose is something I personally think is doing more damage than good.

You think you are helping students by in some way protecting them, yet you have given absolutely no tips or advice on how to get a leg up in the industry.

Maybe that's a reflection of how our society has gone in Ireland. That everyone feels that no-one should work for free because it is in some way exploitation.

Well I think we'll see a sea change on that front in the coming years as people cop on to reality and see that sometimes you need to work hard and for free at times to get to where you want to be.

flogen wrote: »

That goes beyond money too - it's about this assumption that content will just be good because you want it to be good.

Eh no, I don't like making assumptions. I like to work on fact.

I don't expert every article submitted to us to be worthy of being used, so therefore it won't be published.

flogen wrote: »

Let me ask you this and it will go some way to showing you what I mean.

Is there and editorial structure in place in the website and if so how will that apply to contributors?

Yes there will be, not finalised as of yet - but as per above, if the work isn;t up to scratch it won't be published, simple as that.

flogen wrote: »

You keep saying I assume things but I think you'll allow me this one at least - every journalist student today has an e-mail account. They also have access to newspapers.

That's the only opportunity they need, that and a brain. You just need contact details for an editor and an idea, then you can pitch. That's what I did when I was in college. It was harder than it is now but it worked and I got published and paid.

I never had to tell them I wrote for website X or Y, I just had to tell them who and what I was (a student journalist). I don't think the first editors I dealt with even asked for examples of printed work if I'm honest and if they did I would have pointed them to the work I did on my college newspaper and not a website.

In fairness I can't not say anything to that other than that it is brilliant that it worked for you. But it doesn't happen like that for everyone.

You were clearly one of those talented, self motivators that got up of your arse and did something. Luckily for you, it paid off and that is to be commended.

However, without the initial experience you had, would you have taken that approach? Would the quality of your writing have been as good?

Your work experience would have stood to you in someway, yeah maybe not on your CV, but what you learned along the way, most definitely.


I'm sure you'll agree that opportunities only matter if you take them and any journalist or aspiring journalist has an opportunity at any time to get published and paid if they try hard enough.

Luck is when you pitch something to the right editor at the right time; the rest is hard work.

flogen wrote: »

That's fine - I'm just pointing out that they can work for money to help grow themselves too.

Yes and I completely respect that.

flogen wrote: »

I've already stated what I think student journalists should do, in this post and previous ones.

Yes you've stated, but you haven't given clear examples of what they could do.

For example, should they write an article on something specific, who should they send it to, should they include cover letter etc etc etc.

You know all this in your head, but I'm sure a lot of students don't know where to start on this front.

flogen wrote: »

You don't think that's realistic? If they're a half decent writer with a half decent idea and enough drive to send and chase up e-mails they will get published. If they're not there's no hope for them so they may as well give up now.

No I don't think it's realistic for everyone. It's still a pitch at the end of the day. You could go on like that forever and get nowhere.

But there is hoope for them, they could go to smaller publishers where they could be more involved in business rather than just writing articles all day.

You make the assumption that everyone coming out of a journalism course is only interested in writing all day.

When I studied a came out knowing that I actually didn't want to work in the side of the business I learned about, but a related one that needed different disciplines aswell as those that I learned.

flogen wrote: »

The trick isn't getting published. It's getting published regularly.

Yeah makes sense - but I'm sure there is lots to learn in terms of writing articles that people want to publish.

flogen wrote: »

Why not? It's not hard.

If it's not hard, why isn't every newly graduated journalist doing it and getting a job?

It quite clearly hasn't been hard for you, but you're obviously quite talented.

Do you think your position would be compromised at this stage of your career if someone with absolutely no experience sends in an article or two to your editor that are better than your last two publications? Unlikely. So that's one job and you have it sown up. There are no opportunities for anyone else.

flogen wrote: »

Journalism is a fairly democratic industry, in its own way. Of course there are writers that I think are getting paid more than they're worth - there are some that I think aren't worth much at all. The same is true the other way around.

However clearly there are enough people out there who think otherwise, which justifies their inflated salaries.

That's a very idealistic view of Journalism you have. Journalism is a business end of.

We don't have John Giles writing articles for newspapers because he is a great journalist or writer (he probably doesn't even write the articles) - we have him because people want to read his opinion on what they love.

That's what sells papers, not the idealistic world of the quality of work is what sells.

flogen wrote: »

The overriding point of it all is that they all get paid something, however. That's because there is a general recognition in the reputable part of the industry that if you think something is worth publishing it's worth paying for.

Yep well I still think it's an idealistic view.

Look I've written articles for local business publications (and still do) on a monthly basis for free, why? Because I use it generate business.

I'm no journalist, but what I write about makes me appear to be an authority in that field to the people who read it. I'm sure if you or any other journalist read the articles you'd rip it apart. However, my profile and knowledge is why this paper takes my work (and refuses a lot), but either it's a win win for both of us. They have the content from someone known in the industry and I get an outlet to market my business and brand through this medium.

So the bottom line is that it's up to the individual what they think their work is worth. If they are getting no-where through other avenues, what's wrong with them trying something like this. In my opinion they nothing to lose and more to gain.

I can't ever say that you will MAKE it, because it's the individual that makes themselves succeed not the work. The work created is only a by product of the hard work they've put in to perfect their skill.

flogen wrote: »

I disagree.

Well there's a surprise

You disagree but can't give me a reason why?

I don't need to know anything about journalism to run a business like this, I just need to know how to run a business...

flogen wrote: »

A job, maybe. But if a journalist student leaves college expecting to get a job they have been badly prepared by their lecturers. As for work, a decent writer will always get work (that pays).

Well I gave you an example above of how you don't have to be a good writer to get work either... but do you think everyone student that leaves college is capable of getting work straight away? I'm not talking about the decent ones. The rough diamond ones that just need to learn the ropes a little.

flogen wrote: »

I never said it hasn't affected the industry - I said it has not changed the fact that people can still get commissioned and still make a living from journalism.

Ok well you did suggest that the current climate has not affected the number of opportunities which wouldn't be fair to say since the opportunities have diminished.

flogen wrote: »

I didn't keep it here to spare you offence, I kept it here so people could decide if the opportunity was for them.

Well that's very debatable.

When I read back over this thread, I don't think you give anyone a chance to see if the opportunity is for them or not because you've done nothing other than state your dislike towards opportunities like this and look for holes in anything I've said.

I think it's fair to say that that's not really giving anyone a chance to have a balanced opinion of what's on offer here.

flogen wrote: »

Firstly, I take issue with you being willing to disclose details privately but not publicly as if this is some kind of state secret that actually matters to anyone but yourself.

Well you can take issue all you like, that's business. If you can't come up with some reasons as to why I don't want to disclose information about the business, well then you don't really know much about business then.

flogen wrote: »

Secondly, it doesn't matter what the website is or how popular it is. My issue is that you are looking for people to write for free and you are dangling some vague notion of "experience" in front of them with no actual substance behind it.

The notion of the experience to be gained or the opportunity that is available will be in the eye of the person who views it.

It's not for me to say what they'll learn from it because I don't know that individual. For example, if they've worked with other publications before on work experience they may learn nothing from it, but I wouldn't expect those people to be interested in something like this.

Can you put substance behind the defition of "experience"? I can sum it up quite easily, but that will probably be too "vague" for your liking...

flogen wrote: »

Across all of this you are suggesting that many students won't have a chance to get paid work and have suggested that working for free is a good idea for them which is just plain wrong.

Emm no that is not what I have suggested anywhere....

What I have said is that I do believe working on the basis of gaining some experience is a good idea. And it isn't wrong.

Ask any employer, recruiter or whatever the case may be, experience counts for a lot, regardless of the type of job you are going for. And most importantly, experience doesn't neccessarily need to be in the discipline of the work you are applying for.

For you to suggest that working for nothing is not a good idea shows your naivity. You've clearly never had to hire anyone and have been lucky with your career to date.

I also never suggested that any student "won't have a chance to get paid", anywhere in my posts.

flogen wrote: »

I don't see any potential benefits beyond what a well-run blog would offer them.

Ok, well that's good to know.

But I would have to say again that you are being very naive, however I can give you the benefit of the doubt because you don't know what's planned. In saying that though, a well run blog is only ever going to get you a few hundred/thousand regular visits a day with the majority of traffic coming from search engines when they come, view one page and leave...

Give me any employer that would see a personal blog as more impressive than having a regular column on RTE.ie - I don't think you'll find many if any...

flogen wrote: »

As for potential negatives I think I've made that very clear. I feel they would be giving their work away for nothing when they could be getting paid for it (assuming it's any use). It's unlikely that writing for a site for free will damage their career - beyond the fact that it sucks up the time during which they could be doing real work - but that doesn't make it a good idea.

No you never made it clear - you've only given one potential negative, and that was that they could be getting paid.

You've added a new one about the time - yep I agree.

But can I ask, couldn't they write these articles and pitch them at many different editors? See who bites first? And if none bite, sure you could always just get it published somewhere else (if good enough of course)

flogen wrote: »

I'm basing my view on the information you've decided fit to share publicly. That is that it's a website with a lot of hits and it will publish people's work but not pay them.

There's nothing more to it than that.

But you never asked privately what more there is, so wy comment then other than just being difficult?

flogen wrote: »

You say that like I'm the editor of The Irish Times or something.

It's not too long ago since I was a student and I'm giving my experience when it comes to stuff like this. don't feel I'm 'there' yet, 'there' being where I want to be in terms of my overall career, but I do know that no-one should work for free.

Why shouldn't people work for free Adam? Because you're a celtic tiger youngster who never needed to do it to get where you are?

Give me a break...

flogen wrote: »

I've asked already but I'll ask again - how close is the experience you offer to the one they'll get in a real publication? How will they have a better idea as to whether journalism is for them once they've written for your site?

Why are you comparing it with a real publication, this is an online publication - a place where the world is clearly going.

The reality is that these are only questions that an individual can answer. I can't answer that for them - they'll have to do their own soul searching.

flogen wrote: »

My cynicism here has nothing to do with my career; it's to do with this magic beans offer you're making.

Yet again making statements that are totally untrue - where are these "magic beans" that I'm offering.... it's getting boring now. I've respsonded to every one of those points you brought up.

flogen wrote: »

All you seem to be offering people is a place to have their work hosted. You call that "experience" but it's nothing of the sort.

Well as long as you don't know what the business is about, you'll never see at as more than that......

flogen wrote: »

I feel we're going around in circles here some what so I'm not going to keep replying like this

Leave the "we" out of this - It's you that's having difficulty trying to understand it. We're going round in circles because you don't like my responses.

flogen wrote: »

I would like to know more about the experience they'll gain and maybe you can outline that here.

.....

flogen wrote: »

People can decide for themselves if this is something they want to be involved in; I just want them to be clear that there are (in my opinion) far better ways of getting ahead in the industry.

Yes hopefully, although I honestly can't see many people reading this thread with all the handbags flying around!

I do think it would be a good idea to write something about how to get ahead in the industry, maybe do an article on your blog :P - seriously though I think it would help a lot of students out.

flogen

When I ask you to detail the experience someone will gain in writing for your website you ask me what I think that will be. It's not my publication and I'm not offering the experience so I can't tell you that. You need to add some substance to your claim and explain what you mean by 'experience'.

The best you've done in detailing that is giving me an example of what people in your industry gain from work experience with you. Can you give an example of what a journalist might gain?

As for my own suggestion, there's really little else to it than contacting an editor with an idea. The way you approach will depend on a lot of things, like the publication in question and the topic at hand so I can't really be any more specific than that.

It's a matter of trial and error too as some editors will respond differently to different approaches but the important thing is you actually try and keep trying.

This is something a student should be told in college and it's a simple matter of getting down to it. I'm not saying it's a case of sending one e-mail and getting work but what I am saying is persistance will pay off assuming the idea is good enough.

My ability to get commissions when I was in college wasn't based on some talent I possessed - I could write an article, yeah, but not nearly as well as I can now. The difference, I guess, was that I threw enough ideas at enough editors that a few stuck and once I got one the next one got a bit easier and so on.

My ability to write was never really impacted by the free work I did while in college either, bar what I wrote for my college newspaper. The reason for that is because it had no connection to what writing for a real publication is all about. It was effectively as beneficial as me self-publishing, it was practice but in an unrealistic setting.

Will your site be any different?

And I had to laugh at your characterising of me as a "celtic tiger youngster". I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean but it certainly didn't equate to easy money for me.

I've had plenty of set backs, plenty of unanswered pitches and so on and in my first few years in the job I earned anything between €6-9k a year but no more than that. Hardly Celtic Tiger living.

And as for me having a niche that no-one else can touch, there's only one piece I write that I would say is "mine", so to speak. It's a regular job I have to write every month and no-one else does it.

Other than that, I live off ideas I pitch or ideas given to me by editors to get by. Anyone else with a good idea has as much of a chance of getting published as me (unless they've given themselves a bad rep) and while I have earned a reputation amongst some editors of being reliable and worth throwing some work to here and there that's not a trait I have exclusivity over.

But someone who is able and willing to work hard will find work in the best and worst of times. Graduate journalists will, for the most part, have a hard time gaining a foothold in whatever it is they want to do. There will likely be a year or two - at least - of low earnings. Many will drop out because they can't live with the uncertainty or because it's not the career they thought it was.

In my experience none of that justifies working for free. By all means people can if they wish, I've yet to see a scenario where it's worthwhile (and that's a swipe purely at you and your site but all publications of any nature that ask people to write for free).

And finally your knowledge of the journalist industry is important. Yes, it's a business and some business accumen is vital but it is of no use to the people that work with you if you cannot give them what they need; financially or in terms of the connection to how the industry works.

tomED

flogen wrote: »

When I ask you to detail the experience someone will gain in writing for your website you ask me what I think that will be. It's not my publication and I'm not offering the experience so I can't tell you that. You need to add some substance to your claim and explain what you mean by 'experience'.

Well I personally think I made it quite clear, you don't like my answer, that's fair enough. I don't think it will help anyway if we continue to discuss this.

So in summary the experience is simple... working with an online publishing house in the fashion industry.

What the individual will learn or take with them as their experience will be unique to that individual.

flogen wrote: »

The best you've done in detailing that is giving me an example of what people in your industry gain from work experience with you. Can you give an example of what a journalist might gain?

Yep, I used examples of how work experience can teach you a lot more than just the discipline you want to work in.

So again, I can't tell you anymore other than what I already have.

flogen wrote: »

This is something a student should be told in college and it's a simple matter of getting down to it.

I'm not saying it's a case of sending one e-mail and getting work but what I am saying is persistance will pay off assuming the idea is good enough.

My ability to get commissions when I was in college wasn't based on some talent I possessed - I could write an article, yeah, but not nearly as well as I can now. The difference, I guess, was that I threw enough ideas at enough editors that a few stuck and once I got one the next one got a bit easier and so on.

This is the best bit of advice you've given throughout this thread!!! :P

Seriously though, I think this is extremely valuable information for any student looking to make a break.

flogen wrote: »

My ability to write was never really impacted by the free work I did while in college either, bar what I wrote for my college newspaper. The reason for that is because it had no connection to what writing for a real publication is all about. It was effectively as beneficial as me self-publishing, it was practice but in an unrealistic setting.

Fair comment, however, you did learn that what you were doing wasn't really worth doing. So you learned from this that you needed to not only improve your writing, but also work on something else to get yourself noticed.

So the work experience wasn't a waste of time - it brought home so real hoe truths. Therefore there was a benefit in the free work you did.

But so far you've been so negative to think of that as a bad thing rather than something that helped you further your career.

flogen wrote: »

Will your site be any different?

Well I won't promise anything as I've tried to state so many times. I would like to think that if we really like someone's writing that they would eventually become part of a team.

Not only will they write articles for the website but also become more involved in how to grow the business and get more people interested in our brand.

That may not be a realistic ideal that I have, but ultimately that's the way I like to build my businesses, so that everyone feels apart of the business and not just set to one defined role.

flogen wrote: »

And I had to laugh at your characterising of me as a "celtic tiger youngster".

I knew it would, I saw your twitter avatar... :P

flogen wrote: »

I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean but it certainly didn't equate to easy money for me.

Well I'll explain what it meant, but it was more of a rant and not really directed at you.

When I started in business 13 odd years ago, there were no prospects for kids leaving school/college - jobs were few and far between. You got a job either on proven experience or because you knew someone.

In the past decade and more so in the last few years, it's become common practice for businesses to pay for work experience staff. When I was starting out, that was unheard of because businesses didn't have the money to do so.

Nowadays, our youth seem to expect it now because of the normalisation our wasteful years brought us. Unfortunately we seem to be going back to that age when students will come out of college with absolutely no chance of getting jobs. The reality is that if you want to get a break in the next couple of years, you'll need to show your interest and whether that's working for free or pittens it's very likely that you'll have to do it.

I'm not saying that is the case right now, but if continue to go further into recession it's something a lot of our youth will have to get used to.

flogen wrote: »

I've had plenty of set backs, plenty of unanswered pitches and so on and in my first few years in the job I earned anything between €6-9k a year but no more than that. Hardly Celtic Tiger living.

Well see this is the irony of it all. If you had unanswered pitches, it means you in effect worked for free afterall.

Clearly no-one got the benefit of your work, but maybe if you changed your approach to trying other avenues of getting your work published, you could have made that transition quicker?

flogen wrote: »

Someone who is able and willing to work hard will find work in the best and worst of times. Graduate journalists will, for the most part, have a hard time gaining a foothold in whatever it is they want to do. Many will drop out because they can't live with the uncertainty or because it's not the career they thought it was.

Totally agree with this - which is why I thought (in my wisdom) that some journalists would be totally into the idea of getting their work out there on a popular website.

flogen wrote: »

In my experience none of that justifies working for free.

Ah but you did work for free, you just don't see it that way.

flogen wrote: »

By all means people can if they wish, I've yet to see a scenario where it's worthwhile (and that's a swipe purely at you and your site but all publications of any nature that ask people to write for free).

I hope you meant "not" a swipe Adam! :P

And I totally respect your opinion - I just don't agree with you totally.

However, I have seen sites and other business people take advantage of people through these free work scenarios, but all I can do is ensure you that that is not our intention at all and would love to reward anyone who contributes, but I'm simply not the type to give false promises.

flogen wrote: »

And finally your knowledge of the journalist industry is important. Yes, it's a business and some business accumen is vital but it is of no use to the people that work with you if you cannot give them what they need; financially or in terms of the connection to how the industry works.

No sorry, I can't agree with you on this either.

One thing I've learned about being in business and succeeding in business is that you hire people that know a lot more about something than you do.

Once I have the right person who understands my and the boards visions and has a proven track record - I only need to know that we're going in the right direction in an efficient and timely manner.

My role in the business will be developing the marketing strategy, building the brand and the day to day running of the business. I will deligate everything that needs to be known about running a publication to those who are skilled at it (my business partners)

flogen

Ok this will be my last post in this thread because I've spent enough time on it already and really should know better by now than to get sucked into a row on a forum no matter what the topic.

Firstly I don't consider a failed pitch to be free work, as it's not like I always wrote the article up before getting someone to carry it. There is work involved but time is spent in order to get work, much like another person might need to commute to get to their job to earn money.

But anyway.

The experience I would hope you'd tell me people would have was relating to the editorial process. Getting a brief from an editor, meeting a deadline and a specific word count, writing to a specific house style for a specific audience and so on.

This is the kind of experience that is vital and is worth so much more than having your name next to an article no matter where it is. That's how I gained from writing for a college newspaper as opposed to a website and those skills are what will stand to you in the real world.

I hope they'll be part of the process in your site but you've not suggested they will be here.

RGDATA!

i don't want to jinx it but i'd say you've talked yourself out of the job flogen.

KPM.ie

tomED best of luck with the project, sounds like a good opportunity for students to build up a portfolio of published work.

cherrycool

I think all that was a bit harsh ... the poor guy is only trying to offer people a bit of exposure. I have done an awful lot of print work and radio work for free; there's so many people trying to break into the industry that you just have to, to fill out your CV. Maybe TomEd is full of crap, maybe he's not and this will be the next Vogue or something - either way, fair play for trying to offer struggling journalism students another thing to stick on a CV!

PCPhoto

cherrycool wrote: »

I think all that was a bit harsh ... the poor guy is only trying to offer people a bit of exposure. I have done an awful lot of print work and radio work for free; there's so many people trying to break into the industry that you just have to, to fill out your CV. Maybe TomEd is full of crap, maybe he's not and this will be the next Vogue or something - either way, fair play for trying to offer struggling journalism students another thing to stick on a CV!

I have to disagree - you don't have to work for free in order to get exposure/work.

I work as a photographer and facilitate people from Boards on the Photo Forum in getting their images to the newspapers - I dont charge for it and have earned a number of Boards members several hundred euro.

As a working press photographer I cant be everywhere so if someone from Boards or anywhere else gets an image that they think the papers will use - they send to me and I send to the papers.
(the reason I don't just give out the email/FTP details of the papers is that they are supposed to be for working members of the media ONLY)

JustinDee

PCPhoto wrote: »

I have to disagree - you don't have to work for free in order to get exposure/work

I did.
Did some work for ABC Australia and through got into an editorial office for The Economist until I left it in 2005.

FewFew

PCPhoto wrote: »

I have to disagree - you don't have to work for free in order to get exposure/work.

Bit different for photography though isn't it?

Out of a journalism class of 32 who finished last September, only two of us got paid work without going through some work experience process. Of those that eventually got employed, the majority got the work because of free work they did in the past.

Sophsxxx

Hi.
Are you still looking for writers? I'm a journalism student in UL so would be really interested in writing about fashion!