Garda demanding Bank card as identification

rivers

As the title suggest, I was stopped by a couple of gardai in an unmarked car for a minor offense, when asked for i.d i told them i didnt have any. One of the garda then demanded my laser card. He proceeded to write down the details from it. These are sensitive details; I'm not saying the garda was taking my account number etc. but I would like to know the legality around this issue? thanks

Pkiernan

If you were driving at the time, you are required to have with you and present upon request your driving license. This would have sufficed as proof of ID.

If you were just walking down the street and stopped, I do not know if you are required to have proof of identification.

MagicSean

He was satisfying himself as to your identity. Legally you were not obliged to hand it to him but then you probably would have found yourself in a cell waiting for someone to bring down proof of your identity.

angelfire9

As a matter of interest what "sensitive" information other than the card number is on your laser card?
Mine has the AIB branch number but not an account number and the 6 digit issue number is no use to anyone except the bank

Pkiernan

angelfire9 wrote: »

As a matter of interest what "sensitive" information other than the card number is on your laser card?
Mine has the AIB branch number but not an account number and the 6 digit issue number is no use to anyone except the bank

All the information (other than billing address) to make an online purchase is visible on the card i.e.:

Name
19 digit account number
Expiration date.

With the above, and the billing address it is a simple matter to use the card to make online purchases.

Whether or not the Guard would use this info in a nefarious way is a completely different (and rather unlikely) matter.

coylemj

Pkiernan wrote: »

All the information (other than billing address) to make an online purchase is visible on the card i.e.:

Name
19 digit account number
Expiration date.

With the above, and the billing address it is a simple matter to use the card to make online purchases.

Whether or not the Guard would use this info in a nefarious way is a completely different (and rather unlikely) matter.

Not true, you couldn't make a clone in order to use it fraudulently without scanning the original so the information the Garda put in his notebook could not be used for any nefarious purpose.

Jumpy

coylemj wrote: »

Not true, you couldn't make a clone in order to use it fraudulently without scanning the original so the information the Garda put in his notebook could not be used for any nefarious purpose.

In that case, post up yours... sure it couldnt be used for anything bad eh?

http://www.buy4now.ie/portal/aspx/home.aspx

Theres a prime example.

murrayp4

coylemj wrote: »

Not true, you couldn't make a clone in order to use it fraudulently without scanning the original so the information the Garda put in his notebook could not be used for any nefarious purpose.

You don't need to clone a card to buy something online.

Pkiernan

coylemj wrote: »

Not true, you couldn't make a clone in order to use it fraudulently without scanning the original so the information the Garda put in his notebook could not be used for any nefarious purpose.

If you post the details I described for your Lasercard I would be happy to book a flight with Aer Lingus or Ryanair on your behalf. Where would you like to go?

Our man in Havana

All that is needed to book a flight etc is the long number and the expiry date. The cardholder name and billing address is not checked by the airlines.

ironclaw

Did the Garda identify himself? I wouldn't have let him write down the details. He can more than satisfy who you are based on the name (Hold you thumb over the last 4 digits)

Personally I'd cancel that card.

MagicSean

ironclaw wrote: »

Did the Garda identify himself? I wouldn't have let him write down the details. He can more than satisfy who you are based on the name (Hold you thumb over the last 4 digits)

Personally I'd cancel that card.

rivers wrote: »

I'm not saying the garda was taking my account number etc

I think you are missing the point of the thread

ironclaw

I was under the impression the Garda wrote down details from the card. Surely seeing one's name on the card would be enough? I wouldn't give my card to anyone for long enough to get the digits down.

MagicSean

ironclaw wrote: »

I was under the impression the Garda wrote down details from the card. Surely seeing one's name on the card would be enough? I wouldn't give my card to anyone for long enough to get the digits down.

The point of the thread is wether it is legal for the garda to demand the bank card as proof of ID not wether the Garda will defraud the op.

Our man in Havana

Bank cards are considered acceptable ID for voting in elections.
I would imagine that the Garda only noted the name. Without a photo ID the name on a bank card proves nothing. Maybe the card was stolen?

rivers

Thanks for the replies.

Yes the point of the thread was in relation to the legality of demanding a bank card as identification. As has been discussed above, you only need the name, number and expiration date to make a purchase online. One garda confronted me, while the other garda took my card, and walked away and was scribbling something in his notebook while contacting the station for what i presume was to confirm my identity. I'm not accusing the garda of stealing my laser card details but if he wanted to, he could have easily, so I was questioning the legality of this. I feel like making a complaint to be honest.

MagicSean

rivers wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

Yes the point of the thread was in relation to the legality of demanding a bank card as identification. As has been discussed above, you only need the name, number and expiration date to make a purchase online. One garda confronted me, while the other garda took my card, and walked away and was scribbling something in his notebook while contacting the station for what i presume was to confirm my identity. I'm not accusing the garda of stealing my laser card details but if he wanted to, he could have easily, so I was questioning the legality of this. I feel like making a complaint to be honest.

Make the complaint then. But the alternative was to arrest you so keep that in mind.

Bosco boy

I've had a number of people who I was on the verge of arresting as they did not have their licences with them and I was not happy as to their identity, I would simply say have you any other form of identity that might prove who you are, I have found genuine people only too happy to produce the likes of a bank card in order to spare being arrested. Maybe if the op was arrested and the Garda hadn't accepted the card as a form of ID he's have a different complaint! You can't win!

PCPhoto

k_mac wrote: »

Make the complaint then. But the alternative was to arrest you so keep that in mind.

I understand the view of the garda here (theres plenty of people out there giving false names/addresses to avoid summonses etc) - but surely your post suggests that the garda would have had no alternative but to bring the OP to the station.... which in my opinion is unwarranted.

EXAMPLE : if I have my wallet stolen (for example - on a fri evening of a Bank holiday weekend) .....I would not have any ID available to me - I live 150miles away from my family - would this mean that if my wallet was stolen or I had left it at my rented home that a garda would take me to a holding cell until I could confirm my identity ?

would it not be a better system for the gardai to take a photograph of the person in the event of no ID present - these images could then be put into a database with the name given at the time - using image recognition software (or a simple amount of coding) - any duplicate images - bearing false names - would appear - resulting in an additional charge of fraud - WHEN eventually arrested.

EDIT: I understand this would have the liberal pinkies out claiming national database conspiracy etc etc - but to be fair ...the images would only be taken - in the event of no ID or refusal to produce ID....not to create a database of people who broke the law (that would just be a happy by-product)

Our man in Havana

There should be compulsory ID cards. That would end all the trouble. No ID card off to the cells with you.

rivers

Well I am a 'genuine' person, gave my real name, and am NOT happy handing over any bank cards as identification. If gardai want to arrest people for very minor offenses, and waste the resources and time etc. instead of arresting people dealing drugs openly, fighting, mugging etc. (where people are put into custody anyway, no matter real i.d given or not) then that's their perogative, but it justs smacks of their reluctance to go after real crime due to laziness/fear/incompetence...

MagicSean

PCPhoto wrote: »

I understand the view of the garda here (theres plenty of people out there giving false names/addresses to avoid summonses etc) - but surely your post suggests that the garda would have had no alternative but to bring the OP to the station.... which in my opinion is unwarranted.

EXAMPLE : if I have my wallet stolen (for example - on a fri evening of a Bank holiday weekend) .....I would not have any ID available to me - I live 150miles away from my family - would this mean that if my wallet was stolen or I had left it at my rented home that a garda would take me to a holding cell until I could confirm my identity ?

would it not be a better system for the gardai to take a photograph of the person in the event of no ID present - these images could then be put into a database with the name given at the time - using image recognition software (or a simple amount of coding) - any duplicate images - bearing false names - would appear - resulting in an additional charge of fraud - WHEN eventually arrested.

EDIT: I understand this would have the liberal pinkies out claiming national database conspiracy etc etc - but to be fair ...the images would only be taken - in the event of no ID or refusal to produce ID....not to create a database of people who broke the law (that would just be a happy by-product)

Yes. If a garda doubts your identity and you have no proof he has no other legal option other than to arrest you and bring you back to the station to identify you. This is assuming he needs your details. He could of course just let you go and hope you were truthful.

angelfire9

rivers wrote: »

Well I am a 'genuine' person, gave my real name, and am NOT happy handing over any bank cards as identification. If gardai want to arrest people for very minor offenses, and waste the resources and time etc. instead of arresting people dealing drugs openly, fighting, mugging etc. (where people are put into custody anyway, no matter real i.d given or not) then that's their perogative, but it justs smacks of their reluctance to go after real crime due to laziness/fear/incompetence...

Oh wow... 2 Garda Bashing threads in one section of Boards :rolleyes:

If you commit an offence no matter how small the Gardai are entitled to arrest you and that would make you just as "real" a criminal as a drug dealer
A criminal record is a criminal record after all

MagicSean

rivers wrote: »

Well I am a 'genuine' person, gave my real name, and am NOT happy handing over any bank cards as identification. If gardai want to arrest people for very minor offenses, and waste the resources and time etc. instead of arresting people dealing drugs openly, fighting, mugging etc. (where people are put into custody anyway, no matter real i.d given or not) then that's their perogative, but it justs smacks of their reluctance to go after real crime due to laziness/fear/incompetence...

It isn't them that are wasting the resources it is you. The argument that you should be able to do whatever you want because there are more serious criminals out there is stupid.

okioffice84

Haddockman wrote: »

There should be compulsory ID cards. That would end all the trouble. No ID card off to the cells with you.

rivers

angelfire9 wrote: »

If you commit an offence no matter how small the Gardai are entitled to arrest you and that would make you just as "real" a criminal as a drug dealer
A criminal record is a criminal record after all

I didnt say anything about them not being 'entitled' to arrest me, of course they are. As i said, that's their perogative, but to equate a minor offense, for example, littering, with drug-dealing or mugging, as one of the above poster's did, is just nonsense.

And yes, a criminal record is a criminal record, but for what i'm talking about you don't get a criminal record.

MagicSean

rivers wrote: »

I didnt say anything about them not being 'entitled' to arrest me, of course they are. As i said, that's their perogative, but to equate a minor offense, for example, littering, with drug-dealing or mugging, as one of the above poster's did, is just nonsense.

And yes, a criminal record is a criminal record, but for what i'm talking about you don't get a criminal record.

You were the one who made the comparison to other more serious crimes.

WildOscar

angelfire9 wrote: »

Oh wow... 2 Garda Bashing threads in one section of Boards :rolleyes:

If you commit an offence no matter how small the Gardai are entitled to arrest you and that would make you just as "real" a criminal as a drug dealer
A criminal record is a criminal record after all

and you're the cop protector lol:rolleyes:

angelfire9

WildOscar wrote: »

and you're the cop protector lol:rolleyes:

Am I not as entitled to air an opinion as anyone else?
Or is freedom of speech not permitted in cop bashing threads? :rolleyes:

highlydebased

Demanded your laser card? Did you tell him you had it before he demanded it? If not, sounds a bit odd. Not everyone has one afterall..

Guy:Incognito

Haddockman wrote: »

There should be compulsory ID cards. That would end all the trouble. No ID card off to the cells with you.

Oh Jesus, Run_to_da_hills google tracker has just gone in to overdrive.


Regardless of ID cards (I agree with them) drivers are required to carry their driving licence with them when driving. If they dont then its their own fault if they are inconvenienced.

rivers wrote: »

Well I am a 'genuine' person, gave my real name, and am NOT happy handing over any bank cards as identification. If gardai want to arrest people for very minor offenses, and waste the resources and time etc. instead of arresting people dealing drugs openly, fighting, mugging etc. (where people are put into custody anyway, no matter real i.d given or not) then that's their perogative, but it justs smacks of their reluctance to go after real crime due to laziness/fear/incompetence...

How do they know you havnt commited any major crimes? You cant even prove who you are. Are you suggesting Gards just blindly believe everything they are told by random people they stop?

holystungun9

Haddockman wrote: »

There should be compulsory ID cards. That would end all the trouble. No ID card off to the cells with you.

Agreed, now is the time to start ploughing money into this system. On second thought maybe we should wait a while.

Reloc8

k_mac wrote: »

He was satisfying himself as to your identity. Legally you were not obliged to hand it to him but then you probably would have found yourself in a cell waiting for someone to bring down proof of your identity.

Are you relying on the Offences Against the State Act here to justify that detention ?

angelfire9

Reloc8 wrote: »

Are you relying on the Offences Against the State Act here to justify that detention ?

I would have thought the Gardai have the right if not the obligation to determine a person's identity under any legislation
Road Traffic Act for example

Correct me if I'm wrong

If I was asked to prove my ID under the Offences Against The State Act I'd be having kittens :eek:

MagicSean

Reloc8 wrote: »

Are you relying on the Offences Against the State Act here to justify that detention ?

Section 107 of the Road Traffic Act 1961