Deer Stalkers

Tackleberrywho

Who represents Deer stalkers in Ireland?

Who appointed them?

Are you a member?


For the purpose of deer management, the IDS recommend that the rifle calibre should be a minimum .240 inch, with a muzzle energy of 1700 foot pounds and a minimum bullet weight of 100 grains.

(The minimum legal calibre is currently .22/250.)



Due to severe weather conditions - advice on Open Season for Deer
December 1st 2010
http://www.wilddeerireland.com/news.html#75

Considering the current severe weather conditions in many areas of Ireland, deer and all game animals/birds are under additional pressure and also from a shortage of food supply, therefore we would ask all those involved in the culling of deer to use their discretion in the areas effected and to refrain from stalking deer until the weather conditions improve.

The deer are hampered by the snow and not alert to the usual dangers tending to herd together seeming not to notice normal dangers such as humans and dogs.

To shoot deer in the current weather conditions could be seen as unethical

Extract from Deer Alliance

When attempting the female cull every opportunity must be taken to attain the
required number. While not recommended for the novice stalker, a neck shot will
drop a deer with less disturbance to a group than a chest shot, which causes the deer to
rush forward. Correct shot placement is discussed in detail later. Sound moderators
are also useful where multiple animals are required to be removed, and have become
increasingly popular in recent years.

Sparks

I think Deer Alliance Ireland contains both Wild Deer Ireland and the Irish Deer Society...

From the Deer Alliance 'about us' page:

The Alliance comprises the four leading Irish deer organisations – The Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I think Deer Alliance Ireland contains both Wild Deer Ireland and the Irish Deer Society...

From the Deer Alliance 'about us' page:

PRINCIPLES OF DEER MANAGEMENT
Source: WILD DEER MANAGEMENT IN IRELAND: STALKER TRAINING
MANUAL (2005) by Liam M. Nolan & James T. Walsh.
© L. M. Nolan, J. T. Walsh & Deer Alliance HCAP Assessment Committee, 2005
The aim of every deer manager, amateur or professional, should be to maintain deer in
a healthy condition, with numbers appropriate to and in balance with local conditions.
This means that he must ensure that deer numbers are kept within levels
commensurate with available food supplies and within whatever levels of tolerance
are accorded locally, having regard for landowner interests, in particular forestry,
given that a majority of stalkers will find their shooting focussed on land owned by
Coillte Teoranta and managed by them for timber production. Damage to surrounding
agricultural land and farm crops will also be a useful indicator of local deer
populations. The farming and farm forestry sectors are acutely aware of increasing
levels of damage from deer. The stalker must be aware of signs of measurable damage
to forestry or agricultural interests and he must be prepared to cull deer carefully and
systematically when called upon to do so. In doing this he must operate within an
environment which is not always directly controlled by him and which conforms to
objectives set down by others.

They seem to only have a passing interest in Farmland, all their Energy seems to be focused on Coillte (Is there an agenda there, Paid Stalking Vs Free)

It wasn't me!

None of them are governing bodies. They're interest groups. What this means is that they represent a particular interest, rather than deer stalking as a whole, while having some veneer of the latter, which lends credibility. Now, personally, I'm not involved with any and have no need to be, as I think any role they can have on a provincial or national level is somewhat overbearing. Far more appropriate is to have small syndicates on a local level making counts, drawing up management plans, executing culls in line with them and looking after deer welfare on a local level. Now, of course, you can't force people into them and you'll get lads outside your syndicate shooting your ground if they have permission and there's nothing you can do only make allowance for it. You don't get to complain if they don't enter into your agreement, no matter how frustrating it is having your plans disturbed. In fact, the only way the syndication works absolutely is if your syndicate has exclusive rights to enough land to keep a deer population internal, and then you'll have to hear the moaning from people about how that's not "fair", so you can't win either way.

Tackleberrywho

6-1 in Favour of no Governing body.

Seems a lot of discontentment with the Self appointed bodies

Sparks

Tack, it's already been pointed out that that lot aren't governing bodies...

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Tack, it's already been pointed out that that lot aren't governing bodies...

So if they are not governing bodies..
Then why should the IDS get print space in the Irish Times??

Does anyone who how many members there is in each "Society".

I have to say it's hard enough to promote shooting in Ireland when shooters are waffling to the print media about poaching.

I have seen a lot of shooters in my time with all kinds of insignia embroidered onto blazers, Bodywarmers and Polo shirts.

However if these Societies are let represent all the Stalkers in the country the .22/250 will be banned, and the only way a person is allowed to shoot with a Mod is if a Pro-Shooter.

So excuse me if I am a shade annoyed.
I would like to hear from more hunters on deer stalking.
It's hard enough to be a deer stalker without "Societies" trying to become "Governing bodies"
Which if anyone thinks is not the case is living in a utopian world.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

So if they are not governing bodies..
Then why should the IDS get print space in the Irish Times??

Beats me. Ask the editor, it's her call.

So excuse me if I am a shade annoyed.

Nothing wrong with being annoyed.
But it does help to listen when you ask questions.

It's hard enough to be a deer stalker without "Societies" trying to become "Governing bodies"
Which if anyone thinks is not the case is living in a utopian world.

No, I'm somewhat familiar with associations trying to claim authority over things they probably shouldn't. I'm just saying that if you want to oppose that kind of thing, you must know what you're talking about in a lot of solid, documentable detail.
And it helps to have patience, because it's not a sprint, it's a life spent jogging.

243Xpress

Werent these the guys who were advertising there services during the summer months asking farmers to ring them if they had a problem with deer and now during the season they are telling us to refrain from shooting till the weather improves.Insert below was in the Irish times...

Fri 02 Feb 2009Deer cull planned as spiralling numbers threaten farmlandsWILD DEER roaming the countryside are to be culled by conservationists in a bid to protect farmlands and maintain herds humanely.
For the first time in the Republic, licensed deer stalkers will be called out by farmers to shoot the protected species if they are damaging crops, forests or causing traffic accidents.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Beats me. Ask the editor, it's her call.Nothing wrong with being annoyed.
But it does help to listen when you ask questions.
No, I'm somewhat familiar with associations trying to claim authority over things they probably shouldn't. I'm just saying that if you want to oppose that kind of thing, you must know what you're talking about in a lot of solid, documentable detail.
And it helps to have patience, because it's not a sprint, it's a life spent jogging.

I do listen Sparks when I ask questions, in fact I ask a lot of questions.
As a stalker, I spend my life taking cautious steps. Jogging only spooks deer.

These guys want a stop on deer stalking by NON Society members.
They want the HCAP to become compulsory.
For one reason only; so they can "control" who's in "the old boys club"

tfox

I voted no governing body, just because I find any of the societies totally useless. I have been a member of the Ulster branch of the British Deer Society for many years and they are an excellent society, very well run and do a lot for the sport and deer management.

From my experience any of the Irish groups are set up as a way for some people to get permissions from landowners easier.

Was a member of IDS for 2 years, total waste of money !!
The HCAP is a joke, set up in my opinion as a money spinner for those organising it. Cheating was rife when I sat mine, and found the questions were set out to catch you out rather than ascertain wether you had sufficient knowledge to be a competent and safe stalker. DSC 10 times the course !!

Tackleberrywho

10-1 against a governing body

I am surprized that the "societies" are not getting their troops together to vote on mass.

Maybe they have no troops :eek:

4gun

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Who represents Deer stalkers in Ireland?

Who appointed them?

Are you a member?


For the purpose of deer management, the IDS recommend that the rifle calibre should be a minimum .240 inch, with a muzzle energy of 1700 foot pounds and a minimum bullet weight of 100 grains.

(The minimum legal calibre is currently .22/250.)



Due to severe weather conditions - advice on Open Season for Deer
December 1st 2010
http://www.wilddeerireland.com/news.html#75

Considering the current severe weather conditions in many areas of Ireland, deer and all game animals/birds are under additional pressure and also from a shortage of food supply, therefore we would ask all those involved in the culling of deer to use their discretion in the areas effected and to refrain from stalking deer until the weather conditions improve.

The deer are hampered by the snow and not alert to the usual dangers tending to herd together seeming not to notice normal dangers such as humans and dogs.

To shoot deer in the current weather conditions could be seen as unethical

Extract from Deer Alliance

When attempting the female cull every opportunity must be taken to attain the
required number. While not recommended for the novice stalker, a neck shot will
drop a deer with less disturbance to a group than a chest shot, which causes the deer to
rush forward. Correct shot placement is discussed in detail later. Sound moderators
are also useful where multiple animals are required to be removed, and have become
increasingly popular in recent years.

personally to me that reads ..."its too cold for me to go out shooting so you shouldn't either" :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

2, 1, 1, 15 in order of the voters preference to date.

Wild Deer Ireland 2
IDS 1
Deer Alliance 1

And 15 seem to have no time for any of the current bodies.

Yet IDS gets Column inches??

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

2, 1, 1, 15 in order of the voters preference to date.

Wild Deer Ireland 2
IDS 1
Deer Alliance 1

And 15 seem to have no time for any of the current bodies.

Yet IDS gets Column inches??

Publicity is self-gotten. When a journalist wants information, they don't look for Joe deerstalker, they look to Publicly Identifiable Group Associated With Deerstalkers, because it looks better. If you want your views published, write letters. If you want specific articles written, then approach the journalists yourself, because they're not looking for you.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Publicity is self-gotten. When a journalist wants information, they don't look for Joe deerstalker, they look to Publicly Identifiable Group Associated With Deerstalkers, because it looks better. If you want your views published, write letters. If you want specific articles written, then approach the journalists yourself, because they're not looking for you.

Seems anyone can start a club and say IRISH club this, or Irish club that.

A google search of deer and Ireland throws up the first two societies.

I never had time for profiteering, is it a case of folk paying OTT for lettings and then the locals can pick off deer on there way home from work?

It's beyond me why someone would want to shoot on a coillte let,as it's completely mad the amount of MONEY and red tape involved.

Then the deer wander onto the next door neighbours and they are fair game for the other stalkers.

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Seems anyone can start a club and say IRISH club this, or Irish club that.

A google search of deer and Ireland throws up the first two societies.

I never had time for profiteering, is it a case of folk paying OTT for lettings and then the locals can pick off deer on there way home from work?

It's beyond me why someone would want to shoot on a coillte let,as it's completely mad the amount of MONEY and red tape involved.

Then the deer wander onto the next door neighbours and they are fair game for the other stalkers.

Yes, anyone can, and anyone can be a spokesman for their sport then, without any endorsement from the entire body of it. That's the way it goes. I have no issue with people paying for stalking, would happily pay for quality stalking if I could afford it. If you don't want to and are happy with the quality of the shooting available to you, great, you've no need to concern yourself with it at all. However, if not, your options are to get a syndicate together, gather more land under your umbrella, get exclusive agreements with the landowners, then start a decade's worth of herd management, with everyone on board, and then reap the rewards. Now, Coillte lets don't guarantee good shooting by any stretch, but decent woodland will typically have more deer on it than lowland farms.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yes, anyone can, and anyone can be a spokesman for their sport then, without any endorsement from the entire body of it. That's the way it goes. I have no issue with people paying for stalking, would happily pay for quality stalking if I could afford it. If you don't want to and are happy with the quality of the shooting available to you, great, you've no need to concern yourself with it at all. However, if not, your options are to get a syndicate together, gather more land under your umbrella, get exclusive agreements with the landowners, then start a decade's worth of herd management, with everyone on board, and then reap the rewards. Now, Coillte lets don't guarantee good shooting by any stretch, but decent woodland will typically have more deer on it than lowland farms.

IWM, Plenty of farms in the mountain, on the edge of woodland.
Deer wander out at Dawn or Dusk and Whathump.

I have shooting on farmland in mountain, shooting on the outwash plain of mountain, shooting on lowland.

I go on the lowland as it's handier for me to recover carcass as most of my stalking is solo, I've dragged enough deer across a mountain to appreciate the benefits of driving across a field to retrieve a deer (and there is plenty of Private woodland too ;-) )

I would not consider joining a club where I hand over all my permissions.
Only 1 other stalker on one of my permissions, and that is one too much

Anyone else any views??

19 votes to date

It wasn't me!

My own view is that proper organisation is only possible on a small, local level, with dedicated syndicates and large expanses of exclusive land. That's how to do it. It's not a job you can do solo either, and certainly anyone who's just shooting the odd deer for the pot doesn't need much ground and certainly doesn't need it exclusive. Not good for the herd either.

Tackleberrywho

22 Voters, No taking 77% of the vote!

rob308

Irish Deer Society

Any of these organisations only represent their members. Sometimes it's better to be on the inside looking out rather than on the outside looking in;)

Tackleberrywho

rob308 wrote: »

Any of these organisations only represent their members. Sometimes it's better to be on the inside looking out rather than on the outside looking in;)

Question is, who is on the outside, and who is on the inside?

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Question is, who is on the outside, and who is on the inside?

No need to make it sound like some sort of conspiracy.

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Question is, who is on the outside, and who is on the inside?

/facepalm

Look tack, seriously now. What the hell are you asking in this thread? You list off three interest groups, two of whom belong to the third, and ask which of them is the governing body, when there is no governing body for deer stalking. Nobody but Madam Editor controls what shows up in the Times, least of all any of those groups. So what exactly is it that you're trying to say here? Specifically?

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

/facepalm

Look tack, seriously now. What the hell are you asking in this thread? You list off three interest groups, two of whom belong to the third, and ask which of them is the governing body, when there is no governing body for deer stalking. Nobody but Madam Editor controls what shows up in the Times, least of all any of those groups. So what exactly is it that you're trying to say here? Specifically?

You are answering my question

To say that IDS and Wild deer Ireland are both members of the same group (Deer alliance); if they are both the same why is there two groups; and why need for a third?


Perhaps governing body seems to be the wrong word; a group that Dictates how deer are to be shot, and Testing peoples ability are not a governing body?(HCAP requirement to be member,If only for shooting on Coillte land)

Seems like these guys are trying to "govern" the deer stalking scene by spreading propaganda in the print media
Specifically IDS.

I would like to generate awareness about the politic in deer stalking circles amongst the general hunting community.
So anyone interested in becoming a stalker gets to see who; if anyone is looking after the interests of all stalkers!

On one page, we read that deer populations are exploding, on another we read poaching is epidemic and deer numbers are depleting
Whom are we to believe??

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You are answering my question

To say that IDS and Wild deer Ireland are both members of the same group (Deer alliance); if they are both the same why is there two groups; and why need for a third?

Why shouldn't there be two bodies? Or three, or fifty? It makes no difference to you.

Perhaps governing body seems to be the wrong word; a group that Dictates how deer are to be shot, and Testing peoples ability are not a governing body?(HCAP requirement to be member,If only for shooting on Coillte land)

They don't dictate a damn thing. They publicly express their opinion, just as you can. They can require whatever they want for membership. Hell, I can tell you you can only come into my garden hopping on one leg with a pair of pants on your head if I want. My club, my rules.

Seems like these guys are trying to "govern" the deer stalking scene by spreading propaganda in the print media
Specifically IDS.

So write letters and refute it. If you're not willing to enter the discourse, bitching about it is useless.

I would like to generate awareness about the politic in deer stalking circles amongst the general hunting community.
So anyone interested in becoming a stalker gets to see who; if anyone is looking after the interests of all stalkers!

On one page, we read that deer populations are exploding, on another we read poaching is epidemic and deer numbers are depleting
Whom are we to believe??

Why in earth anyone in this sport should look at the politics of it without the intention of getting involved, I have no idea. If you want to be happy, go and look after your own interests and have a good time. If you want to know what deer numbers are like, learn to properly observe and manage the herd available to you. If you're not monitoring their numbers, why on earth would you trust what someone else tells you?

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

You are answering my question

If I was answering your question Tack, this thread would have ended on post #2 when I pointed out that you'd gotten wires crossed.

To say that IDS and Wild deer Ireland are both members of the same group (Deer alliance); if they are both the same why is there two groups; and why need for a third?

There are several groups because they arose organically, rather than being designed for the entire country out of whole cloth. That's the way it always is with these things, not just in shooting, but in all of life.

Perhaps governing body seems to be the wrong word; a group that Dictates how deer are to be shot, and Testing peoples ability are not a governing body?(HCAP requirement to be member,If only for shooting on Coillte land)

There is no such group for deer stalking.

Seems like these guys are trying to "govern" the deer stalking scene by spreading propaganda in the print media
Specifically IDS.

But Madam Editor doesn't decide on who is and isn't a governing body.

I would like to generate awareness about the politic in deer stalking circles amongst the general hunting community.
So anyone interested in becoming a stalker gets to see who; if anyone is looking after the interests of all stalkers!

Grand, but in that case, would you mind stating from the outset that that's what you're doing instead of trying to very obviously sneak up on it? It just wastes time and effort to do stuff like that.

On one page, we read that deer populations are exploding, on another we read poaching is epidemic and deer numbers are depleting
Whom are we to believe??

Well, here's a hint - don't start with those who rely on selling adverts in their newspaper to pay their mortgages.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

There is no such group for deer stalking.

Well, here's a hint - don't start with those who rely on selling adverts in their newspaper to pay their mortgages.

Which group is that then so?
The deer expanding/explosion
Or the anti poaching/deer deteriorating group

As they seem to be one and the same
Or is there feck all deer when lettings are up for renewal, and loads of deer when sub letting?:eek::eek:

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Which group is that then so?
The deer expanding/explosion
Or the anti poaching/deer deteriorating group

As they seem to be one and the same
Or is there feck all deer when lettings are up for renewal, and loads of deer when sub letting?:eek::eek:

No, that's the newspaper.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

No, that's the newspaper.

It was a rhetorical question IWM.

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

It was a rhetorical question IWM.

It's difficult to be certain.

Hunterjohnb

We don't need a Governing body!

Tack, reading your content in this thread reminds me of the little boy in the playground who owns the ball!!!!:

Tackleberrywho

Hunterjohnb wrote: »

Tack, reading your content in this thread reminds me of the little boy in the playground who owns the ball!!!!:

That's your prerogative,
I only started this thread on foot of reading a similar thread this week with an IDS statement on, Lamping, Silencers and deer stalking.

There is a Poll, the people have voted.

ejg

Irish Deer Society

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

That's your prerogative,
I only started this thread on foot of reading a similar thread this week with an IDS statement on, Lamping, Silencers and deer stalking.

There is a Poll, the people have voted.

Tac, in good times the vote might go the way your poll is going...but those who voted for an organisation to back their interests also have the right to join an organisation...or? You cannot deny them that.
If for example one of them anti bloodsport ministers comes up with all sorts of ideas, who is going to back our interests? Then it might be too late to start organising a counter weight. Good night to our sport then.

Even the HCAP thing isn't too bad, what are we scared of? that we learn something? Carcass handling seminar?, I've never seen any badly ill deer except maybe broken bones on deer in the wild but at the seminar stalkers bring in dodgy livers and so on that the vet can examine and all can see in reality. Nothing wrong with that.

None of our organistions are perfect but over time the organistaion that suits our needs best will grow and the others must change direction or loose. A bit of competition is good.

edi

Tikka Jim

The IDS etc are all Me Feiners. A few committee members of the IDS and their cronies formed 'The Wicklow Deer Management Group'. Their hope is to get the deer stalking on the national park for themselves.

If you want to know their agenda read section 7b of the board minutes below and the Wicklow People article

http://www.wicklowuplands.ie/boardminutes/Board-18-06-08.pdf

http://www.braypeople.ie/premium/news/oh-deer-group-plans-culling-of-wild-animals-2311401.html

They also wrote to landowners whose land was being hunted by Gunclubs etc. looking for deer hunting.

Grizzly 45

The two links have problems TikkaJim,
One has a this page cant be found
and the other is a encrypted site for the newspaper.

voted No organisations as I always felt they were taking the urine with HCAP.The HCAP test seems to be about a 50% knockoff the German hunting test last time I looked,[with some wrong answers too:pac:].When I talked to them,it was supposedly to cover Coilte for insurance purposes.Well and good,if you wanted to/had to hunt in Coilte property,its their rules and conditions.

BUT like all things Irish,it is starting to get greedy and is casting about to justify it's existance by saying ALL deer hunters should come under its remit.If this is true about cheating,and catching out people and demanding large amounts of money,they can go shove off! Only reason they have any sort of voice that is listend to is because of the "training programme" for Coilte,so that gives it some sort of authorithy to speak for deer hunters.Some but not all of them mind!

In that case of cumpolsry testing,I'd rather it was a STATE RUN exam like the leaving Cert.Despite its many educational drawbacks,it is still about the only fair and square test in this state.