The best built house is.......

uptowngirly

There's so much choice! My twopence worth is that the best built house is a block build with external insulation.....am I totally off the mark?

Every house type has obviously got pros and cons - but if you weigh up the cost, it seems to me that the best deals are in a concrete build and then externally insulated (no cavity wall). Obviously you need a good qualified builder who understands air tightness and the need to minimalise cold bridging.

The reason I'm putting this out there is because my architect did a course where they were told that this was the best way to insulate a house (once done correctly) for the price it costs. Now, one of my best mates started a course in Dublin city centre yesterday where they said that it's not a great way to insulate and timber frame is the way forward.

The plans for the new build are nearly completed and I'm hoping to put this issue to bed for once and for all - help!!

sas

The best building method is a matter of opinion and budget.

Every system will offer something that the others don't.

When pricing for my house which is being built to passive spec. I priced every option. I dismissed alot for several reasons and arrived at 2 options, externally insulated masonry and timber frame built using breathable materials.

I did this price comparison a year ago.
http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=711&highlight=price+comparison

If anything the gap has widened in the year since I did this in favour of the externally insulated masonry because the components of that have gotten cheaper. Timber frame with the materials I specified has if anything gotten more expensive.

I will put my stake in the sand. If budget wasn't an option I'd have built the TF option. It's fast, so clean and the homes really appear to perform. A friend of mine has built this way and I believe the house is ridiculously comfortable and they haven't moved in yet.

Also there appear to be question marks over the real life performance of the masonry passive homes in this country.

However, budget was an option and my PHI adviser was adamant that if the house is build as designed to the PH spec., it will perform, regardless of the construction method. She herself has said that her personal preference for her own home would be masonry.

If you search the Live Self Builds thread under my name you'll get an idea of what I've done so far. It may help.

uptowngirly

You're a superstar - I'll search the thread now!

Budget is a big concern - and I'm getting the same advice from my architect as you did - just wanted to see what all the lovely clever people thought!

I read about the price of timber rising 14% since June - the other worry I have with a timber frame house is hanging stuff on walls - the boyfriend's brother has had a mare of a time looking for safe places to up bookshelves and the like - he seems to be off about an inch on each first attempt so polyfilla is his friend!

beyondpassive

uptowngirl.

The 'best build house' really has very little to do with the choice of wall system used. Leaving compact form, orientation and choice of windows aside or now. The biggest factors are

1. Design: the quality of details provided for the builder. With all junctions rigorously drawn to indicate continuity of insulation and integrity of airtight envelope. All fixings and bridges through the insulation must be designed.

2. Design. The designer must (as yours has) develope a performance specification based on a minimal heat demand target or your particular situation, in your case below the passive threshold. This will clearly indicate to all involved the levels of attention to detail required and identify exactly what each tenderer must price.

3. quality of work on site, good supervision, a good understanding of the airtigness barrier by trades is critical, however this can not be achieved without having 1+2 in place.

4. Choice of build system. The roof and sub-structure are the most critical elements as clients will obsess about walls and forget about the roof. It is especially importnt to have a good roof spec when you have a room in the roof or dormer type build. The cold bridge at rising wall or slab edge is a big heat loss element in irish construction this is critical where underfloor is proposed. The cold bridge at the eaves and top of gable is often forgotten, again an important detail.

5. At last, on to your walls. Taking a range of 11 houses i've been involved with in the last 8 months, performance ranging from 3 working towards passive cert and 7 near passive (up to about 15.5 to 27kWh/m2.an). 2 are external insulation on masonery, 3 are 'next generation' timber frame, 1 is hemplime on timberframe (I was only let near the foundations) and 5 are wide cavity with 225 to 310mm cavity.

Performance wise, with a good specification, there is nothing between thee systems, its swings and roundabouts at the end of the day. Individual preference of the clients is the determining factor and the entusiasim of the structural engineer.

There are only 3 timber frame companies in the south and possibly 1 up north hi, who can deliver the quality required for passive, the one we all know is very very good. The issue with the externally insulated masonery house is simply the warm air heating system is not raising the thermal mass above comfort levels on some colder days. not a big deal.

If anyone wishes to add to, or contradict this view your observations are most welcome.

kboc

beyondpassive wrote: »

uptowngirl.

The 'best build house' really has very little to do with the choice of wall system used. Leaving compact form, orientation and choice of windows aside or now. The biggest factors are

1. Design: the quality of details provided for the builder. With all junctions rigorously drawn to indicate continuity of insulation and integrity of airtight envelope. All fixings and bridges through the insulation must be designed.

2. Design. The designer must (as yours has) develope a performance specification based on a minimal heat demand target or your particular situation, in your case below the passive threshold. This will clearly indicate to all involved the levels of attention to detail required and identify exactly what each tenderer must price.

3. quality of work on site, good supervision, a good understanding of the airtigness barrier by trades is critical, however this can not be achieved without having 1+2 in place.

4. Choice of build system. The roof and sub-structure are the most critical elements as clients will obsess about walls and forget about the roof. It is especially importnt to have a good roof spec when you have a room in the roof or dormer type build. The cold bridge at rising wall or slab edge is a big heat loss element in irish construction this is critical where underfloor is proposed. The cold bridge at the eaves and top of gable is often forgotten, again an important detail.

5. At last, on to your walls. Taking a range of 11 houses i've been involved with in the last 8 months, performance ranging from 3 working towards passive cert and 7 near passive (up to about 15.5 to 27kWh/m2.an). 2 are external insulation on masonery, 3 are 'next generation' timber frame, 1 is hemplime on timberframe (I was only let near the foundations) and 5 are wide cavity with 225 to 310mm cavity.

Performance wise, with a good specification, there is nothing between thee systems, its swings and roundabouts at the end of the day. Individual preference of the clients is the determining factor and the entusiasim of the structural engineer.

There are only 3 timber frame companies in the south and possibly 1 up north hi, who can deliver the quality required for passive, the one we all know is very very good. The issue with the externally insulated masonery house is simply the warm air heating system is not raising the thermal mass above comfort levels on some colder days. not a big deal.

If anyone wishes to add to, or contradict this view your observations are most welcome.

Could you PM me those company names please.

Thanks

muffler

I have to ask this: beyondpassive are you associated with the timber framed industry?

beyondpassive

Hi Muffler, sorry should have made that clear. I'm an independent sustainable planning and low energy building consultant. Not affilated with any Timber frame companies and sorry I wont be divulging the names of the 3 timber frame companies delivering a high standard of passive timber frame. I'm happy that the standards of timber frame in Ireland can improve and i'm sure by the end of 2011 there may be 6 companies capable of delivering the higher standards now demanded by the market move towards passive and the impending 2010 Part L. Sure wish I was affiliated with more clients and architects though, never seen things so quiet.

kboc

beyondpassive wrote: »

Hi Muffler, sorry should have made that clear. I'm an independent sustainable planning and low energy building consultant. Not affilated with any Timber frame companies and sorry I wont be divulging the names of the 3 timber frame companies delivering a high standard of passive timber frame. I'm happy that the standards of timber frame in Ireland can improve and i'm sure by the end of 2011 there may be 6 companies capable of delivering the higher standards now demanded by the market move towards passive and the impending 2010 Part L. Sure wish I was affiliated with more clients and architects though, never seen things so quiet.

Could you please PM me those companies.

kingchess

re masonry built you can also use blocks other than concrete such as quinnlite.ytong and poroton,i built my house using 4 inch quinnlite for inner leaf,maybe because i am a blocklayer(unemployed now ) i went for that option.but your walls,no matter how well insulated,are no good if all your heat goes out your windows or out through your roof

uptowngirly

I probably should have mentioned that when I said bricks - I mean to use the block on the flat and EWI, hence removing the need for a cavity wall and inner leaf.

I agree with everyone re the roof and windows - we have the house positioned to utilise the passive solar gain and we hope to go for triple glazed alu-clad windows.

The roof will be insulated to within an inch of it's life (and I've printed off your reply beyondpassive to make sure that everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet regarding that - thanks so much for taking the time to write your reply )

Kingchess - I found the cost of poroton/quinnlite blocks prohibitively expensive in comparison to the other options - and cost is a huge issue for us, like everyone in the current climate.

My main problem is that I want a stone front - it's not a whim (as my architect keeps insisting!) it's an absolute must - I love the look of stone and I'm a small bit spoilt so used to getting what I want! Is there any way this will work with EWI or am I going to end up building some of my house with a cavity wall so as I can tie the stone facing onto it properly?

It might sound silly, but one of the reasons I didn't want to go for a timber build or a SIP build was because of the hassle hanging things on walls and looking for joists to drill into - am I being really silly? (I have been advised by two people who have timber builds that it's the worst thing about them....)

sas

uptowngirly wrote: »

My main problem is that I want a stone front - it's not a whim (as my architect keeps insisting!) it's an absolute must - I love the look of stone and I'm a small bit spoilt so used to getting what I want! Is there any way this will work with EWI or am I going to end up building some of my house with a cavity wall so as I can tie the stone facing onto it properly?

It might sound silly, but one of the reasons I didn't want to go for a timber build or a SIP build was because of the hassle hanging things on walls and looking for joists to drill into - am I being really silly? (I have been advised by two people who have timber builds that it's the worst thing about them....)

Stone can be used with EWI. Talk to the companies that supply the systems in Ireland. They will have done it.

The hassle in hanging things is a problem in the typical poor standard TF built over the last 10 years. There are alternatives to plasterboard (e.g. fermacell) that are load bearing and you can fix to it anywhere. No direct experience but I've heard nothing but good about it. The cost is restrictively high in my opinion though.

As cost is an issue for you, you would do well to forget about TF. The next generation product referred to by BeyondPassive is what I priced and as I've said, it's too expensive. Fantastic product though.

readytostart

beyondpassive wrote: »

uptowngirl.

The 'best build house' really has very little to do with the choice of wall system used. Leaving compact form, orientation and choice of windows aside or now. The biggest factors are

1. Design: the quality of details provided for the builder. With all junctions rigorously drawn to indicate continuity of insulation and integrity of airtight envelope. All fixings and bridges through the insulation must be designed.

2. Design. The designer must (as yours has) develope a performance specification based on a minimal heat demand target or your particular situation, in your case below the passive threshold. This will clearly indicate to all involved the levels of attention to detail required and identify exactly what each tenderer must price.

3. quality of work on site, good supervision, a good understanding of the airtigness barrier by trades is critical, however this can not be achieved without having 1+2 in place.

4. Choice of build system. The roof and sub-structure are the most critical elements as clients will obsess about walls and forget about the roof. It is especially importnt to have a good roof spec when you have a room in the roof or dormer type build. The cold bridge at rising wall or slab edge is a big heat loss element in irish construction this is critical where underfloor is proposed. The cold bridge at the eaves and top of gable is often forgotten, again an important detail.

5. At last, on to your walls. Taking a range of 11 houses i've been involved with in the last 8 months, performance ranging from 3 working towards passive cert and 7 near passive (up to about 15.5 to 27kWh/m2.an). 2 are external insulation on masonery, 3 are 'next generation' timber frame, 1 is hemplime on timberframe (I was only let near the foundations) and 5 are wide cavity with 225 to 310mm cavity.

Performance wise, with a good specification, there is nothing between thee systems, its swings and roundabouts at the end of the day. Individual preference of the clients is the determining factor and the entusiasim of the structural engineer.

There are only 3 timber frame companies in the south and possibly 1 up north hi, who can deliver the quality required for passive, the one we all know is very very good. The issue with the externally insulated masonery house is simply the warm air heating system is not raising the thermal mass above comfort levels on some colder days. not a big deal.

If anyone wishes to add to, or contradict this view your observations are most welcome.

Beyond passive I see you have worked on builds with wide cavities.
Could you tell me what sort of wall tie was used?
Is there any chance you could pm me their names as I am trying to make my decision at the minute between tf and masonary.

kingchess

re costs of quinnlite -this was 4 years ago but i i think they cost me around 1.40 a block,and i used around 2000 blocks for inside leaf,i would have paid around .50 cent for standard blocks so difference is 90 cent or 1800 euro extra for inside leaf(this was 4 years ago so would have to dig up receipts to get exact prices). i am blocklayer by trade so laid them myself but the cost of laying them should be the same as laying standard block which is used on outside leaf.looking back i could have gone for wider quinnlite blocks which would up my ber rating and i dont know what my ber rating is and i dont worry about it,the house is very warm and the esb bills for last two years(excluding this year-switched to airtricity) was around 1600 euro / year for 2500 square foot house. the heatpump would account for around for ???,and i have never lit my fire and the stove in the living room lit once when i had a bad cold and felt the house was freezing:;
even the recent bad weather had no fires and did not use upstairs rads.my 3 daughters(3,8 and 11)usually round around wearing t-shirts.

badger81

sorry to re-open a thread that is a little old at this stage folks but i was wondering what if any progress has been made in the 'insulation' area since the last post. op, did you build the house and what building method did you use?

the more i look at insulation and methods and heating methods and clod barriers and barriers and everything that goes with it, the more i feel as though i'm drowning in a sea of insulation information.

i'm hoping to build this coming summer 2011 and have a fair idea of the house i want. it's 3500 sq foot, singke room depth bungalow half of which will have full height ceilings. i've narrowed down the heating methods to underfloor using solar.air to water heating method, and using a heat recovery system, any and all advices would be appreciated..

yes i've seen the search button but have read and read so much information that to be honest at this stage i'm completely confuddelled!!!!
regards
the badger

sydthebeat

badger81 wrote: »

yes i've seen the search button but have read and read so much information that to be honest at this stage i'm completely confuddelled!!!!
regards
the badger

you are embarking on a very specialist journey and you NEED professional help along the way. If you are seriously considering solar as space heating then id recommend you consult with a passive house designer who is also involved in architectural technology.

the answers you need are so indepth and specialised to your particular build that i feel you wouldnt be best advised on a public forum dealing in generalisations.

badger81

sydthebeat wrote: »

you are embarking on a very specialist journey and you NEED professional help along the way. If you are seriously considering solar as space heating then id recommend you consult with a passive house designer who is also involved in architectural technology.

the answers you need are so indepth and specialised to your particular build that i feel you wouldnt be best advised on a public forum dealing in generalisations.

cheers,
The architect i'm using is quite good/expensive, and have access to engineers working in the same company,
i'm sure i'll have their heads wrecked but for the amount of euros i'm spending they better get used to it
badger pullin his hair out!!

galwaytt

badger81 wrote: »

cheers,
The architect i'm using is quite good/expensive, and have access to engineers working in the same company,
i'm sure i'll have their heads wrecked but for the amount of euros i'm spending they better get used to it
badger pullin his hair out!!

LOL...why is that people think expensive = good ??

Point being that lots of expensive stuff built in recent years, and quite an amount of it rubbish.......ymmv and all that.

sydthebeat

galwaytt wrote: »

LOL...why is that people think expensive = good ??

Point being that lots of expensive stuff built in recent years, and quite an amount of it rubbish.......ymmv and all that.

the OP did not at any stage equate expense to quality. Its possible to be both, some or neither.

infracted for taking thread off topic.